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Author Topic: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]  (Read 107054 times)

unfocused

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2014, 05:47:27 PM »
Canon hasn't answered the D800/E yet.

At the risk of piling on here, I will pile on.

If there is any question, it ought to be why hasn't Nikon answered the 5DIII yet.

Been there, explained this before, but here goes:

The 5DIII was targeted to a real audience: wedding and event photographers. They wanted better autofocus and clean high ISO performance. Go back and read some of the threads from when the 5DIII was introduced and you'll see glowing comment after glowing comment from these photographers about how much they liked the 5DIII. The camera is a "must have" for many wedding photographers because it gives them a competitive edge – they can get shots that other photographers can't easily get.

This is a real market and in fact, it is one of the few large professional markets that exists today.

It so happened that in meeting that market, Canon produced a camera that many of us not in that business still find to be a highly desirable product. Take a look at the Amazon sales rankings. It's incredible that the 5DIII consistently ranks in the top 10 against cameras that sell for one-fifth its price. Having met the needs of a specific audience, Canon was able to expand the base to enthusiasts like myself (who are still a little shocked that we bought a camera this expensive).

Nikon introduced a camera designed to meet the pent-up demand of its buyers, who had suffered for years with cameras that had fallen behind in resolution. I think they resolved to fix that. Unfortunately, the D800 doesn't seem to have found a broader market. Once the pent-up demand of Nikon users was met, where could Nikon go for additional sales? Landscape and other photographers who want high-megapixels and slightly increased dynamic range simply do not constitute a large professional base. (How many professional full time landscape photographers live in your town? I live in the Midwest and I'm not aware of any in my city. Compare that to wedding photographers, which seem to be coming out of the walls around here.)

So, please, somebody give me a good business reason why Canon "needs" to answer the D800, because frankly I can't find one.
By the way...I still can't quite figure out why we are talking about the D800 when this thread is about the D4s – Nikon's low megapixel flagship. If the D800 sensor is so awesome, why is Nikon so uninterested in using it in its flagship?

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2014, 05:47:27 PM »

Don Haines

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2014, 05:52:28 PM »
The D4S is in a sealed glass case at the CES... you can't touch it or use it... so for all practical purposes, it does not exist. At this point in time the appropriate Canon response would to take an empty 1DX shell, paint a 2 on the label (1DX-II), and seal it in a glass case where nobody could touch it.

Until a camera is available to buy/use, it does not exist.
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Eldar

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2014, 06:01:38 PM »
I rented  a d800 and two  good  lenses .  My test  shoots with  my own  5dmk3 and D800 shows that Canon are far behind in digital imaging , resolution , color depth and dynamic range.
Sony 36Mp together with my Canon lenses  will be next  rental try fom my  side
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« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 06:10:33 PM by Eldar »
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MichaelHodges

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2014, 06:02:34 PM »

 Aside from a 7Dii, what's there to want?  The D800, IMHO, just makes bigger files.  And it's no PhaseOne.


Yeah, I have to stop you there. The 7D is considered to have questionable IQ in some circles, so I don't get how the 7D II is some uber-desirable camera and the D800 "just makes bigger files".   The D800 is far superior to the 7D in many areas, and the one that counts the most.

I really like Canon DSLR gear. I got into them because of their lenses, and I'm sticking with them. But the criticism we are seeing is justified (IE selfie-cam while the D800 mauls the universe unchallenged), and in some cases, entertaining.

9VIII

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #79 on: January 10, 2014, 06:13:28 PM »
I think we've all got this backward.

Before 2012 Nikon had one camera that passed the 20MP mark, the D3X, which didn't come until more than a year after the 1DsIII, and was still later than the 5D2. Until the D800 the best full frame body Nikon had to offer for less than $5,000 was 12MP!
For three and a half years the 5D2 filled exactly the same position the D800 is in right now, though I dare say the difference between 12MP and 20MP is a lot more than what we see between the 5D3 and D800 today.
For three and a half years there was nothing to compete with the 5D2.
Canon is not the one playing catch up here.

jrista

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #80 on: January 10, 2014, 06:22:43 PM »
I rented  a d800 and two  good  lenses .  My test  shoots with  my own  5dmk3 and D800 shows that Canon are far behind in digital imaging , resolution , color depth and dynamic range.
Sony 36Mp together with my Canon lenses  will be next  rental try fom my  side
A Swedish Winnie the Poo (Nalle Puh)... Post 1, love anything but Canon, concerned with DR ... Give us a break  ::)

Swedish Winnie the Poo also ignores the empirical facts. Even DXO, the organization much loathed by Canon users, demonstrates that a 5D III with most L-series lenses (usually on the longer end) is actually BETTER than the D800 with Nikon's best glass from a resolution standpoint. All those extra megapixels on the D800 are only enough to bring it up to par with the 5D III on longer glass. Canon still suffers on the wide angle end of things, but hopefully 2014 will be the year that changes that.

MichaelHodges

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #81 on: January 10, 2014, 06:24:34 PM »

Canon is not the one playing catch up here.

In terms of low ISO IQ they most certainly are.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #81 on: January 10, 2014, 06:24:34 PM »

100

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #82 on: January 10, 2014, 06:28:36 PM »
From:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/01/canon-to-haul-capacity-back-home-as-yen-continues-slide/#more-15486

"Canon’s global shipments of interchangeable lens cameras accounted for 45.1 percent of global shipments in July-September, according to IDC, a 5 percent drop in share from the year prior and a 25.7 percent drop in unit sales."

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that Nikon's sales also dropped significantly, and that since Canon has a greater marketshare than Nikon, Canon could lose more unit sales than Nikon yet still sell more cameras.

Plus, I thought you didn't care about sales figures and don't think they are relevant.   :P

Expand the quote from dilbert just a little bit and you get a different story.
The next line:

However, Mitarai said Canon had increased its share of the SLR market by a few percent over the whole year....

jrista

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #83 on: January 10, 2014, 06:33:20 PM »

Canon is not the one playing catch up here.

In terms of low ISO IQ they most certainly are.

Low ISO IQ is a tiny factor out of hundreds that affect image quality. I find it so incredibly ironic that low ISO IQ is apparently the single most important thing for so many "photographers". How many of you who complain about low ISO IQ actually use low ISO all that often? And for those of you who do use low ISO, how often is it that you actually need to lift your shadows more than a few stops? Canon's current crop of cameras is quite capable of being lifted 2-3 stops without issues at low ISO...it is only when you get into the realm of lifting 4-6 stops (or, if you are a true psycho, 8-10 stops by using Lightroom's exposure brush!!)...but lifting any photo's shadows by that much inevitably results in other issues...funky contrast transitions as you move from bright midtones to shadows, strange noise and color fidelity gradients, etc. I would honestly be extremely surprised if as many people who complain about low ISO performance actually lift shadows 4+ stops on a consistent basis.

Statistically, higher ISO settings are used more frequently these days than lower ISO settings...so it really baffles me that this is such a broad and ubiquitous issue. I am not saying that better low ISO DR is a bad thing, of course it's good...but it is still only one IQ factor out of many. Given how well the D800 has sold, I wouldn't go so far as to say Canon is now playing "catchup" in the low ISO DR arena yet.

MichaelHodges

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #84 on: January 10, 2014, 06:54:57 PM »

Canon is not the one playing catch up here.

In terms of low ISO IQ they most certainly are.

Low ISO IQ is a tiny factor out of hundreds that affect image quality. I find it so incredibly ironic that low ISO IQ is apparently the single most important thing for so many "photographers". How many of you who complain about low ISO IQ actually use low ISO all that often? And for those of you who do use low ISO, how often is it that you actually need to lift your shadows more than a few stops?



This is a logical fallacy. The same argument could be applied to the first implementation of auto focus, Image stabilization, etc:

"How can image stabilization possibly be important? How many of you actually use a tripod?"

"Aren't you quick enough to focus manually? There's no need for auto focus if you refine your skills..."

When approaching the conversation with intellectual honesty, one cannot dispute that low ISO IQ is an important aspect of photography....especially for nature photographers.

privatebydesign

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #85 on: January 10, 2014, 06:55:36 PM »
That is an interesting question that illustrates why there are so many diverse opinions about th same piece of equipment, we all use them differently.

As for me I took a look, of my last 19,500 images, 9,000 were at 100iso, 7,500 at 200iso, 2,000 at 400 iso and 1,500 at 800 and other random intermediate iso stops.

I'd like higher low iso image quality. But I am not going to spit my dummy out waiting for it.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #86 on: January 10, 2014, 07:15:49 PM »
As for me I took a look, of my last 19,500 images, 9,000 were at 100iso, 7,500 at 200iso, 2,000 at 400 iso and 1,500 at 800 and other random intermediate iso stops.

Of those low ISO images, for how many did you have to blow highlights or block shadows to preserve the other end AND you had a difference of not more than 2-stops such that the greater low ISO DR of the Sony/Nikon sensor would have solved the problem AND of that subset, how many of those shots were rendered unusable by the lost detail in the shadows or highlights? 

Listening to the DRones, you'd think that Canon sensors completely suck to the point of being unusable at ISO 100 or that a Canon camera would simply explode if you try to take an image of a scene with 13-stops of DR. 

Let's be clear - more is better!  Faster AF, faster FPS, better IQ, more DR, all good.  Well, not more noise - less of that, please.  But those things are not always necessary.
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Orangutan

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2014, 07:17:51 PM »
one cannot dispute that low ISO IQ is an important aspect of photography....especially for nature photographers.

Of course it is.  But what fraction of the total market do nature photographers comprise?  I think everyone agrees that that D800's sensor is great at low ISO's.  For those people whose style of photography plays to the D800's strengths, it's obviously a fine tool.  But many have noted weaknesses in the D800 for other styles of photography.  (I can't speak to it directly since I've never used one)  Other cameras (e.g. 5D3) are reported to have better AF, ergonomics, high-ISO IQ etc. 

The complaint from those such as yourself seems to ask why Canon doesn't put a D800-class sensor in a 5D3 type package to give Canon customers the best of both worlds.  (I'll leave aside the reverse question: why Nikon didn't put 5d3 strengths into the D800)  The answer, as numerous replies have repeated, is the magic word "business."  It costs money (and reduces profit) to use new/innovative components.  It costs for R&D, it costs for tooling, it costs for support (e.g. when you have problems with the new tech that don't appear until after there are thousands in the hands of customers).  All this reduces profit.  Neither Nikon nor Canon are charities.

For the foreseeable future you will not be able to buy a camera that "has it all" and is also affordable.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2014, 07:17:51 PM »

mkabi

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #88 on: January 10, 2014, 07:18:53 PM »
This is interesting. I've never tested it in pictures, but I know in video that ISO noise is non-linear. So technically 160 is better than 100, and 320 is better than 200 or 250, so on and so forth. Wouldn't it be the same in terms of pictures?
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100

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #89 on: January 10, 2014, 07:20:38 PM »

Statistically, higher ISO settings are used more frequently these days than lower ISO settings...so it really baffles me that this is such a broad and ubiquitous issue. I am not saying that better low ISO DR is a bad thing, of course it's good...but it is still only one IQ factor out of many. Given how well the D800 has sold, I wouldn't go so far as to say Canon is now playing "catchup" in the low ISO DR arena yet.

Which statistic?  Can you point to the result of a scientific study?

And what exactly do you mean by “higher ISO settings”? Higher than 100, 400, 800, 1600…?

I buy into a camera system and the sensor is just one part of the system, but I would love to have the low iso DR of the D800 in my 5DIII.
It’s the one area Canon is really outperformed by just about all other manufacturers. I think they should address that for the next generation and they probably will.
All manufacturers are playing catchup in some way, because none of them are the best at everything.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #89 on: January 10, 2014, 07:20:38 PM »