April 18, 2014, 08:58:41 PM

Author Topic: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]  (Read 32896 times)

jrista

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #105 on: January 10, 2014, 11:17:07 PM »
This is interesting. I've never tested it in pictures, but I know in video that ISO noise is non-linear. So technically 160 is better than 100, and 320 is better than 200 or 250, so on and so forth. Wouldn't it be the same in terms of pictures?

This is a Canon quirk. It's actually one of the very few things I hate about my Canon cameras. Canon doesn't have native third-stop ISO settings. Unlike Nikon and Sony (and probably others) who use electronic gain to boost the signal on-sensor for all ISO settings (up to a certain point, like ISO 1600 or 3200, after which more complex means are usually employed to boost the signal), Canon uses a downstream secondary amplifier to additionally adjust for third-stop ISO settings.

This is also where the "ISO 160 base ISO" MYTH for Canon cameras comes from. Canon's native base ISO is literally ISO 100, no question. Canon employs a full stop gain for ISO 200. For ISO 160, Canon does a downstream third-stop "push" for ISO 125, which actually COSTS you a third of a stop of dynamic range (clipping highlights). Since it is a post-read push, it also amplifies read noise by a third of a stop (not much, but if you do end up having to push shadows around a LOT, you notice it.) For ISO 160, Canon does a downstream third-stop "pull", which again costs you a third of a stop dynamic range (crushing blacks). Since it is a post-read push, it reduces read noise by a third of a stop (hence, the notion that ISO 160 is "cleaner" than ISO 100...it is, by a minuscule amount.)

The push pattern is used for all third-stop settings just above full stops (125, 250, 500, etc.) The pull pattern is used for all third-stop settings just below full stops (160, 320, 640, etc.) Depending on the camera, this pattern is abandoned at higher ISO. It used to be that all Canon cameras employed this push/pull third-stop pattern up through ISO 1600, after which a different and more complicated approach was used. With the 5D III and 6D, I believe the pattern is employed up through ISO 6400, beyond which their more complicated approach is used. The 1D X does not seem to exhibit the same differences in noise and DR for third stops as all the rest of Canon's cameras. I am not sure why, but for whatever reason, the 1D X third stops are much better and more linear overall, and therefor much more usable (with no loss of DR.)
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #105 on: January 10, 2014, 11:17:07 PM »

jrista

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #106 on: January 10, 2014, 11:42:06 PM »

Statistically, higher ISO settings are used more frequently these days than lower ISO settings...so it really baffles me that this is such a broad and ubiquitous issue. I am not saying that better low ISO DR is a bad thing, of course it's good...but it is still only one IQ factor out of many. Given how well the D800 has sold, I wouldn't go so far as to say Canon is now playing "catchup" in the low ISO DR arena yet.

Which statistic?  Can you point to the result of a scientific study?

And what exactly do you mean by “higher ISO settings”? Higher than 100, 400, 800, 1600…?

I buy into a camera system and the sensor is just one part of the system, but I would love to have the low iso DR of the D800 in my 5DIII.
It’s the one area Canon is really outperformed by just about all other manufacturers. I think they should address that for the next generation and they probably will.
All manufacturers are playing catchup in some way, because none of them are the best at everything.

High ISO...I'd call that ISO 800 or above. ISO 100, 200, and 400 I consider low ISO, although ISO 400 is kind of in the middle there, and others might have a different opinion.

I don't have a specific study. It's a simple observation, however on that I have been making over the last four years or so. (FYI, I've moderated photo.stackexchange.com since 2010, and have encountered and chatted with quite a number of photographers over the last four years from a wide range of photographic endeavors.) How many white Canon lenses do you see at pretty much every sporting event around the globe? Hundreds to thousands at each and every event. Canon dominates sports, hands down, no question. They really dominate action, not just sports. I spend a lot of time out in nature, and meet a fair number of nature photographers. The very vast majority of the people I've met out in the wilderness, including both wildlife and bird photographers as well as landscape photographers, overwhelmingly have Canon equipment. Canon 1D IV, Canon 5D III, and Canon 1D X are becoming almost ubiquitous in the wildlife and bird world. Canon great white lenses, 300s, 500s, and 600s, are extremely common (particularly the 500 Mark Is...lot of wildlifers and birders use that lens, guess it's at a sweet spot of weight and cost). I've met a few who have Nikon equipment, two of whom use D800's for bird photography. I know of one (now a good friend) who uses Pentax and Nikon. I also know and have encountered/chatted with a decent number of wedding & portrait photographers. Most use the Canon 5D II. A few still use the 5DC (they don't seem to care about resolution). Some use the 5D III (and all of the 5D line wedding photographers had one consistent complaint before the 5D III: Sucky AF.) I know of several wedding photographers who use Nikon and other brands (some have gone to mirrorless as of late, with a variety of brands.) I know two wedding and portrait photographers who use Nikon exclusively. One uses a D800 and D3, the other uses a D7000, with a D800 planned for very soon. I would say that Nikon seems to have a growing following in the strait portraiture arena...not so much for DR, but for the sheer amount of detail the D800 or D600 bring to the table...seems that ridiculous, razor-sharp detail that brings out every single pore is really "in" right now, and there is no question that the D800 offers that in spades.

So, sorry, I don't have an official study for you, but it really isn't a difficult observation to make. Just look around.  It's a very well-educated guess. The number of cameras and lenses that you can spot in the world that say "Canon" on them vastly outnumber  any other brand. Of those, the biggest group that uses the most cohesive set of camera features are the action shooters. Sports/Olympics, Wildlife, Birds...and you can throw in car racing, air shows (know a few guys who do this, damn good at it too), kayaking, boat racing, pretty much anything you could remotely call a sport, or has moving subjects...the camera is going to be at a higher ISO setting, and is probably a 5D III or a 1D X. The next two biggest groups would be Wedding & Portrait, and Landscapes. Not sure which is bigger...seems pretty evenly split here in Colorado, but if you hit larger metropolitan areas, I would make the educated guess that Wedding and Portrait photographers would end up significantly out-pacing the Landscape photographers (and I mean real landscape photographers...I know more people than I can count who use entry level cameras, Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax, everything...and call themselves landscape photographers, but their work wouldn't land on anyones walls (no offense to anyone like this, but)...blown clouds, random people in the frame, lack of interesting composition, effectively point-and-shoot mountain peaks and a few scattered rocks or stubby evergreen trees here and there, never any post processing, thrown up on Imgur, PhotoBucket, or Facebook.)

I honestly don't have all that much knowledge about studio photographers. I can't really say how big a customer segment studio photographers might be for Canon...but I guess big enough for them to create the 1Ds line in the past. What I DO know about studio photography, it seems to lean medium format (or maybe Leica S-system) a lot more than it leans Canon, Nikon or Sony. Phase One also seems to be the brand I hear about most from the studio photogs I do know or have crossed paths with.
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #107 on: January 10, 2014, 11:44:17 PM »
I'm quite content with the DR of my 5D3 ;D


jrista

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #108 on: January 10, 2014, 11:52:04 PM »
I'm quite content with the DR of my 5D3 ;D




I've always loved your cars! Great stuff!
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V8Beast

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #109 on: January 10, 2014, 11:57:07 PM »
I've always loved your cars! Great stuff!

Thanks. I've learned a ton from your technical ramblings, and find it very informative. I haven't posted the "EOS Bodies" forum in quite some time, but I see everyone's still whining about the same thing :)

jrista

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #110 on: January 11, 2014, 12:03:22 AM »

Of those low ISO images, for how many did you have to blow highlights or block shadows to preserve the other end AND you had a difference of not more than 2-stops such that the greater low ISO DR of the Sony/Nikon sensor would have solved the problem AND of that subset, how many of those shots were rendered unusable by the lost detail in the shadows or highlights? 


You could apply this logic to every facet of image taking when arguing against technological improvements:


"Of all your high ISO shots, how many were so truly noisy that you simply couldn't use the image?"

"Of all those shots of grizzly bears, how many were truly ruined by using only a 2-stop IS system?"
 
etc....

The point is that Canon addressed those issues. We no longer rely on 2-stop IS systems, we have 4- to 5-stop IS systems. We no longer have to worry about noise at ISO 3200 or even ISO 6400, with the 1D X, 5D III, and 6D, they are amazingly clean.

Canon addressed the most vocal demands of their customers. Solving the problems you listed above were at the top of the customer demand list. Does no one remember what all the pros were literally demanding from Canon before the D800 hit the streets? Fewer megapixels! Better high ISO! An AF system that doesn't suck like the 1D III's did! Canon delivered what their customers asked for...so no, we no longer have to deal with the issues you listed.

I also believe Canon will deliver on the DR front. Why? Because its what the largest and most vocal group of Canon users are screaming for now. Canon users weren't calling for more dynamic range before the D800...they were all largely satisfied with what they had. It's only SINCE the D800 that the customer demand has changed...which indicates it is more a result of "Hey, that other guy over there has more DR than I do! I want more DR, too!" syndrome (all while concurrently ignoring that they already have better AF, faster frame rate, better frame buffer handling, better glass options, better...), than the all-encompassing, singularly important, most absolutely critical factor for IQ that photographers thing it is. I mean...no one complained about it when 11-12 stops was "all" ANY camera offered, including $60,000 MFD systems (which, ironically, is what they are STILL limited to...an yet no one complains!)...

Anyway...this is the same old thing that always crops up. Yeah, more DR == good. DR != Single Most Important IQ Factor (SMIIQF...pronounced like a "squeaky chick fart"). I'm out! Peace out!  8)
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jrista

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #111 on: January 11, 2014, 12:06:19 AM »
I've always loved your cars! Great stuff!

Thanks. I've learned a ton from your technical ramblings, and find it very informative. I haven't posted the "EOS Bodies" forum in quite some time, but I see everyone's still whining about the same thing :)

Oh, the DR debate has actually died down a lot as of late. It's actually kind of surprising...this is the first time since he-who-shall-not-be-named was everbanned that it became a major issue again.

I am still interested in an answer to my question...I really wonder how often people actually need to lift low ISO shadows more than a couple stops. I am entirely willing to admit I'm wrong if something like a hundred people said they always need to lift four or five stops...it would really blow my mind...but I'd still happily admit I was wrong. (I don't suspect I'll have to admit anything, though...if people really need to lift that much that frequently, they should probably head back to Photography Basics 101...)
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #111 on: January 11, 2014, 12:06:19 AM »

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #112 on: January 11, 2014, 12:39:06 AM »
Canon hasn't answered the D800/E yet.

Why is that an issue? Why is it necessary for Canon to "answer" ANYTHING from the competition? I feel like I just answered this in another thread...Canon has never directly competed model for model with their competition. Instead, Canon produces what their customers ask for, and so far, given their track record, they WILL release compelling products that Canon customers want in the years to come.

whats odd to me is that there 2 topics basically talking about the same thing right now --- jrista, I actaully cross quoted you within these!  ( I don't remember which one at this point).

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sanj

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #113 on: January 11, 2014, 12:47:13 AM »
I'm quite content with the DR of my 5D3 ;D




Lovely shot. But is it only me who feels that a bit more detail in the burnt out sun area would be nicer? A grad filter or change in lighting. Just wondering... I know the hot spot is interesting but JUST A BIT MORE DETAIL perhaps?

sanj

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #114 on: January 11, 2014, 12:53:23 AM »
I've always loved your cars! Great stuff!

Thanks. I've learned a ton from your technical ramblings, and find it very informative. I haven't posted the "EOS Bodies" forum in quite some time, but I see everyone's still whining about the same thing :)

Oh, the DR debate has actually died down a lot as of late. It's actually kind of surprising...this is the first time since he-who-shall-not-be-named was everbanned that it became a major issue again.

I am still interested in an answer to my question...I really wonder how often people actually need to lift low ISO shadows more than a couple stops. I am entirely willing to admit I'm wrong if something like a hundred people said they always need to lift four or five stops...it would really blow my mind...but I'd still happily admit I was wrong. (I don't suspect I'll have to admit anything, though...if people really need to lift that much that frequently, they should probably head back to Photography Basics 101...)

I do not need to generally. But but but, if I ever needed to, it would be nice to be able to do that. Peace!

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #115 on: January 11, 2014, 01:08:19 AM »
Of course it is.  But what fraction of the total market do nature photographers comprise?

A ton of people get into DSLR's for landscape and wildlife. This is where you have zero control of light (or wildlife) so the ability to recover highlights is critical.

Why aren't those people buying a ton of D800's, since it appears to be the best landscape DSLR on the market now?  I can think of two explanations: either landscape photographers don't know how to choose the right gear, or the number of landscape-oriented photographers is not as large as you believe.

I suspect most consumers buy a DSLR for vacation photos, bling, and to be their children's first paparazzo.

The reason sales numbers are important is that they give us data against which to test our assumptions.  If we believe that most people want model X, but many more people buy model Y, then it shows that our belief is not supported by the data, and may well be wrong.

I'd suspect it's basic economics.  It was asked by another person - how many out there are full time landscape photographers?  When I say full time, I don't mean my wife is a a lawyer and earns 3 figures and I sell a few large prints per year and earn maybe 10 k.  I'm talking full time, this is my business - landscape photography, you support yourself, pay your rent and all the other costs associated with that?

I'd say the # of people doing that is fairly small.  And most of them wouldn't be on tech rumor sites bashing their gear provider!

That leaves the part time guys - and that crosses some spectrums from shooting fine art but also portraits and commercial stuff to pay the bills (still a full time photog !) - to those who keep their day jobs and travel on their vacations take nice shots and sell them at the art fair.. to those that don't do festivals, but are happy to shoot and post a few, maybe sell some here and there...and yeah there is a lot of in between there!

This is a large group of shooters, but, they lack the financial resources to devote to it --- to many even the expense of the body (yet along the system!) is more than they can justify ($3k on a camera is a lot of $$$).

Oddly enough as i think on it...If Canon introduced a 50 MP body with 14 stops of DR and priced it at $4500 body only --- how quickly would this conversation change from  - when will the answer the d800/when will they innovate to - why is it so costly.. hmmmmmmmm
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jrista

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #116 on: January 11, 2014, 01:24:09 AM »
I'm quite content with the DR of my 5D3 ;D




Lovely shot. But is it only me who feels that a bit more detail in the burnt out sun area would be nicer? A grad filter or change in lighting. Just wondering... I know the hot spot is interesting but JUST A BIT MORE DETAIL perhaps?


Personally, I like it how it is. I might actually increase the glare just a bit. Not every region of a photo needs more detail, sometimes lower detail and less contrast is exactly what you want.
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Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #117 on: January 11, 2014, 01:27:58 AM »
I've always loved your cars! Great stuff!

Thanks. I've learned a ton from your technical ramblings, and find it very informative. I haven't posted the "EOS Bodies" forum in quite some time, but I see everyone's still whining about the same thing :)

Oh, the DR debate has actually died down a lot as of late. It's actually kind of surprising...this is the first time since he-who-shall-not-be-named was everbanned that it became a major issue again.

I am still interested in an answer to my question...I really wonder how often people actually need to lift low ISO shadows more than a couple stops. I am entirely willing to admit I'm wrong if something like a hundred people said they always need to lift four or five stops...it would really blow my mind...but I'd still happily admit I was wrong. (I don't suspect I'll have to admit anything, though...if people really need to lift that much that frequently, they should probably head back to Photography Basics 101...)

My answer to this is.... when I totally blow it!!!  Head outside of the church to snap a few, then head back in and something pops up before i think to reset the settings...more times than not the scene in that sitatuion is never important enough to actually try to lift the shadows...

Or, I have my triggers on camera, and it rubs on my leg and turns it off, no flash burst...again, problem noticed quick, fixed, and there wouldn't be anything missed that couldn't be captured later....
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #117 on: January 11, 2014, 01:27:58 AM »

sanj

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #118 on: January 11, 2014, 01:37:33 AM »
I'm quite content with the DR of my 5D3 ;D




Lovely shot. But is it only me who feels that a bit more detail in the burnt out sun area would be nicer? A grad filter or change in lighting. Just wondering... I know the hot spot is interesting but JUST A BIT MORE DETAIL perhaps?


Personally, I like it how it is. I might actually increase the glare just a bit. Not every region of a photo needs more detail, sometimes lower detail and less contrast is exactly what you want.


I see your point.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #119 on: January 11, 2014, 01:43:21 AM »

I levy the question again...how many of your shots are at ISO 100, and more importantly, of those ISO 100 shots, in how many did you desperately NEED to push shadows more than two or three stops?

You keep falling into the logical fallacy trap. The logic you are using can be applied to every argument ever made against improving imaging technology:

"If you need fancy image stabilization, you aren't using a tripod properly. How many of your shots actually need this? Is your hand-holding technique sound?"

"Jimmy,  do we really need fancy auto focus? Won't this just make cameras even more expensive? Why not just improve your manual focus skills? How many shots *really* need auto focus if you know what you are doing?"

An improvement in technology is an improvement, regardless of how many use the improvement, or how skilled or not skilled you may feel the person is.

You've posted large blocks of text concerning how many photographers use Canon (one might even say heavy cheer-leading), but that's a red herring when applied to the context of technological improvements.


 


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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #119 on: January 11, 2014, 01:43:21 AM »