July 26, 2014, 05:39:48 AM

Author Topic: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]  (Read 40748 times)

Orangutan

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #240 on: February 01, 2014, 10:00:44 AM »
Wifi is such a cheap feature to implement


I think you are gravely underestimating the cost of adding WiFi. It isn't simply some chip you just buy and stuff into the camera. It has to be integrated into the camera!


JRista, I appreciate what you're saying, but I think you may be overstating the complexity.  The reason it needs so much advance planning is likely due to the internal space constraints of SLRs.  We know it's not "hard" because P&S and lower-end SLRs have it.  The magnesium body, even on a 1DX is not 100% coverage: you could sneak a wire through that and put the antenna outside the magnesium, e.g. under the rubber grip material or on the prism bump.  Hey, why not shoot for the moon and integrate WiFi, GPS and radio flash control in all future xD and xxD models!  Of course it must be integrated, and it's probably more than $5 total cost per unit, but I'd have a hard time believing it's more than $25 per unit.  Seriously, if Eye-Fi can put WiFi in an SD card, it shouldn't be that difficult.  Any future SLR, even the next 1-series, really ought to have WiFi and GPS, even though they're not features I crave.



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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #240 on: February 01, 2014, 10:00:44 AM »

Arctic Photo

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #241 on: February 01, 2014, 11:02:30 AM »
Wifi is such a cheap feature to implement


I think you are gravely underestimating the cost of adding WiFi. It isn't simply some chip you just buy and stuff into the camera. It has to be integrated into the camera!


JRista, I appreciate what you're saying, but I think you may be overstating the complexity.  The reason it needs so much advance planning is likely due to the internal space constraints of SLRs.  We know it's not "hard" because P&S and lower-end SLRs have it.  The magnesium body, even on a 1DX is not 100% coverage: you could sneak a wire through that and put the antenna outside the magnesium, e.g. under the rubber grip material or on the prism bump.  Hey, why not shoot for the moon and integrate WiFi, GPS and radio flash control in all future xD and xxD models!  Of course it must be integrated, and it's probably more than $5 total cost per unit, but I'd have a hard time believing it's more than $25 per unit.  Seriously, if Eye-Fi can put WiFi in an SD card, it shouldn't be that difficult.  Any future SLR, even the next 1-series, really ought to have WiFi and GPS, even though they're not features I crave.



Jrista is big enough to answer on his own, but I still like to fill in. Obviously it's not too complicated for Canon as they've done it in several models already. But not until after the 5DIII which was probably delayed so it was probably never planned for that. I think there's a parallell here to when first network cards and then wifi cards started to make their way into PCs. It took a few years before it was considered to be standard. Eventually it will be considered standard in all cameras too.

But the new argument against the 5DIII not having wifi is simply desperate. Why spend years on an internet forum taking aim at one of the obviously greatest cameras ever produced?

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #242 on: February 01, 2014, 11:21:40 AM »
Wifi is such a cheap feature to implement


I think you are gravely underestimating the cost of adding WiFi. It isn't simply some chip you just buy and stuff into the camera. It has to be integrated into the camera!


JRista, I appreciate what you're saying, but I think you may be overstating the complexity.  The reason it needs so much advance planning is likely due to the internal space constraints of SLRs.  We know it's not "hard" because P&S and lower-end SLRs have it.  The magnesium body, even on a 1DX is not 100% coverage: you could sneak a wire through that and put the antenna outside the magnesium, e.g. under the rubber grip material or on the prism bump.  Hey, why not shoot for the moon and integrate WiFi, GPS and radio flash control in all future xD and xxD models!  Of course it must be integrated, and it's probably more than $5 total cost per unit, but I'd have a hard time believing it's more than $25 per unit.  Seriously, if Eye-Fi can put WiFi in an SD card, it shouldn't be that difficult.  Any future SLR, even the next 1-series, really ought to have WiFi and GPS, even though they're not features I crave.




In terms of per-unit manufacturing cost, sure, I wouldn't expect it to be much more than that either. My point is you don't just drop in a wifi chip and be done with it. You have to design the camera with all these various factors in mind from the getgo, and for each additional feature you add, like WiFi, and GPS, etc. you increase the overall complexity of the product as a whole. The up-front R&D cost increases, the prototyping/testing phase increases, and the extra money spent on R&D has to be recouped somehow. So, maybe you do only have $25 in additional manufacturing costs...but the extra costs in R&D ultimately weigh on the final product price. Everyone complained about the $3400 list price of the 5D III when it first hit...but it really isn't surprising. A hell of a lot of thought and engineering went into making it (more so than the D800...Nikon farmed out the sensor to a third party, and based on the rash of complaints about ergos/button layout apparently really didn't put as much thought or money into layout as Canon did), and the price reflected that.

All I am saying is, the design and construction of complex devices like the 5D III tend to be much more complex than people inevitably reduce them to. Maybe it is just a natural trait of humanity, to greatly simplify things in their minds. Regardless, there is more to including WiFi in a new camera design like the 5D III than simply slapping a chip on a board somewhere and threading an antenna through a hole somewhere. It isn't just $5, it isn't just $25...it's part of a much more complex process involving years and dozens if not hundreds of people working thousands of man hours to research, design, and build the whole entire camera...and every single feature adds another order of complexity.
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Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #243 on: February 01, 2014, 11:46:32 AM »
Wifi is such a cheap feature to implement and it does not compromise wheathersealing or structural stability of a camera at all. those, who dont need it, can switch it off.
And it is not for the facebook / instagram crowd, since they will not bother lugging around a big old mirrorslapper. It is for those photograühers who have to shell out 300 bucks for cam ranger - simply because canon refuses to put a 5 dollar wifi chip + antenna into a 2012 camera for 3 grand.

Luckily its getting cheaper to make up for canons marketing differentiation ploys ...
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=19342.msg363433;topicseen#new


Owner of a 6d and a 5d3 here.  In regards to wifi ---when i got the 6d I thought the wifi was kind of neat.  I used it here and there (via the remote app).  It took taking selfies to a new level!  that, and every once in a while, like on vacation or something I'd use the remote transfer app to upload something to facebook.  LOL...other than that, I have barely used the wifi.  It has stayed in the off mode for like 98% of the time I have had the body. 

 
Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

Niki

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #244 on: February 01, 2014, 11:48:46 AM »
Wifi is such a cheap feature to implement


I think you are gravely underestimating the cost of adding WiFi. It isn't simply some chip you just buy and stuff into the camera. It has to be integrated into the camera!


JRista, I appreciate what you're saying, but I think you may be overstating the complexity.  The reason it needs so much advance planning is likely due to the internal space constraints of SLRs.  We know it's not "hard" because P&S and lower-end SLRs have it.  The magnesium body, even on a 1DX is not 100% coverage: you could sneak a wire through that and put the antenna outside the magnesium, e.g. under the rubber grip material or on the prism bump.  Hey, why not shoot for the moon and integrate WiFi, GPS and radio flash control in all future xD and xxD models!  Of course it must be integrated, and it's probably more than $5 total cost per unit, but I'd have a hard time believing it's more than $25 per unit.  Seriously, if Eye-Fi can put WiFi in an SD card, it shouldn't be that difficult.  Any future SLR, even the next 1-series, really ought to have WiFi and GPS, even though they're not features I crave.



Jrista is big enough to answer on his own, but I still like to fill in. Obviously it's not too complicated for Canon as they've done it in several models already. But not until after the 5DIII which was probably delayed so it was probably never planned for that. I think there's a parallell here to when first network cards and then wifi cards started to make their way into PCs. It took a few years before it was considered to be standard. Eventually it will be considered standard in all cameras too.

But the new argument against the 5DIII not having wifi is simply desperate. Why spend years on an internet forum taking aim at one of the obviously greatest cameras ever produced?


+1

5d m3 is a great camera…best purchase

Eldar

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #245 on: February 01, 2014, 11:53:31 AM »
Wifi is such a cheap feature to implement and it does not compromise wheathersealing or structural stability of a camera at all. those, who dont need it, can switch it off.
And it is not for the facebook / instagram crowd, since they will not bother lugging around a big old mirrorslapper. It is for those photograühers who have to shell out 300 bucks for cam ranger - simply because canon refuses to put a 5 dollar wifi chip + antenna into a 2012 camera for 3 grand.

Luckily its getting cheaper to make up for canons marketing differentiation ploys ...
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=19342.msg363433;topicseen#new


Owner of a 6d and a 5d3 here.  In regards to wifi ---when i got the 6d I thought the wifi was kind of neat.  I used it here and there (via the remote app).  It took taking selfies to a new level!  that, and every once in a while, like on vacation or something I'd use the remote transfer app to upload something to facebook.  LOL...other than that, I have barely used the wifi.  It has stayed in the off mode for like 98% of the time I have had the body.

That sounds like what my use would have been also. Almost everything possible in my house is wifi and it makes life simple, but I don´t see how it would help me if I had it on a camera, unless it was so fast it made image transfer faster or if I was into very advanced remote control operations (which I´m not).
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #246 on: February 01, 2014, 12:06:33 PM »
Wifi is such a cheap feature to implement and it does not compromise wheathersealing or structural stability of a camera at all. those, who dont need it, can switch it off.
And it is not for the facebook / instagram crowd, since they will not bother lugging around a big old mirrorslapper. It is for those photograühers who have to shell out 300 bucks for cam ranger - simply because canon refuses to put a 5 dollar wifi chip + antenna into a 2012 camera for 3 grand.

Luckily its getting cheaper to make up for canons marketing differentiation ploys ...
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=19342.msg363433;topicseen#new


Owner of a 6d and a 5d3 here.  In regards to wifi ---when i got the 6d I thought the wifi was kind of neat.  I used it here and there (via the remote app).  It took taking selfies to a new level!  that, and every once in a while, like on vacation or something I'd use the remote transfer app to upload something to facebook.  LOL...other than that, I have barely used the wifi.  It has stayed in the off mode for like 98% of the time I have had the body.


Well said. It's a great camera and far, far more than just a "minor update" to mkII!

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #246 on: February 01, 2014, 12:06:33 PM »

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #247 on: February 01, 2014, 12:21:45 PM »
The 5D 3 really is nothing more than a 5D 2 with - at long last - a decent af-system in it. Hardly any improvement in IQ and resolution. Blatant lack of connectivity (not even wifi which canon manages to put into any 200 dollar powershot). It should really have been called 5D 2N.

The 5D 3 is really dated in every respect.

By now i've lost interest in the 5d line and bulky dslrs. Just waiting until a really good ff milc comes to market. Af issues in mirrorless are getting ironed out. The fuji xt1 seems to be tracking moving subjects @ 8 fps. Soon enough decent af performance will also be available in ff-sensored mirrorless cams. Looking forward to it. Sony A8R could already be the real winner.

I have often wondered what your smoking before you write posts like t his, it clearly isn't what I am smoking.  5d2-5d3 is one hell of an upgrade.  Others here have already listed the features so I won't bother to repeat them.  You claim that it is - "a 5D 2 with - at long last - a decent af-system in it"...well then we're looking at different cameras.   It's not like it was a little bump in AF.  I mean, they could have slapped the 7d AF system in it.  Even if they did that, way improved over 9 points.  But, to go from 9 points (and with the mk2 the center point was the only one worth anything) to 61 points plus all the servo stuff they added - that's a hell of a lot of improvement in AF.  And we haven't even gotten to the benefits of high ISO work!!!!

They did not just put a decent AF system in it.  They put one of the best AF systems to date in a dslr in it!!!!  If it was as you claimed the 5d3 would have 9 points again but all cross points and none of the servo modes.   But hey, live in your dreamworld where no camera to date is capable of taking a good picture because a mirror gets in the way... 

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #248 on: February 01, 2014, 12:34:32 PM »
But hey, live in your dreamworld where no camera to date is capable of taking a good picture because a mirror gets in the way...

+1

I like how, "AF issues in mirrorless are getting ironed out," while the 5DIII's AF (same sensor as the 1D X) is merely 'decent'.  I wonder if this sort of bias results from one to many mirrorslaps to the head?   :o
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #249 on: February 01, 2014, 12:56:21 PM »
But hey, live in your dreamworld where no camera to date is capable of taking a good picture because a mirror gets in the way...

+1

I like how, "AF issues in mirrorless are getting ironed out," while the 5DIII's AF (same sensor as the 1D X) is merely 'decent'.  I wonder if this sort of bias results from one to many mirrorslaps to the head?   :o

Haha. Maybe all mirrorless owners were bullied and called ugly when they were young and they now have a fear of mirrors which is reflected (pun intended) in their choice of camera systems.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #250 on: February 01, 2014, 01:18:52 PM »
The 5D 3 really is nothing more than a 5D 2 with - at long last - a decent af-system in it. Hardly any improvement in IQ and resolution. Blatant lack of connectivity (not even wifi which canon manages to put into any 200 dollar powershot). It should really have been called 5D 2N.

The 5D 3 is really dated in every respect.

You REALLY don't know what the 5D III is, man. The 5D III was a complete and total overhaul of the 5D II. New body, better sealing, RADICALLY improved AF, improved metering, significantly bumped frame rate, improved ergonomics, etc. etc.

Use of wireless options like WiFi and GPS requires punching holes in the magnesium body...something that compromises ruggedness and sealing. So it isn't a cut and dry point there, and I would suspect that currently, more pros prefer to have the rugged body and sealing rather than the WiFi (otherwise, Canon would have stuffed a WiFi chip in it already.)

The 5D III is current and advanced in EVERY respect EXCEPT the image sensor. Get your facts strait, bub!

Exactly. Only facebook-loving amateurs want Wi-Fi, it's only really useful for reporters and guess what? No reporter wants their camera to have Wi-Fi if the weathersealing gives out before they can even send out the pictures.

Nonsense. I have no use for Facebook whatsoever. I bought a 6D so I could use WiFi to control HDR shot sequences and so forth with my iPhone or iPad. It's the best remote control ever.

On the other hand, I didn't need a 5D III, and even if it had WiFi, I still would have been happy with the 6D.

V8Beast

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #251 on: February 01, 2014, 01:50:05 PM »
Owner of a 6d and a 5d3 here.  In regards to wifi ---when i got the 6d I thought the wifi was kind of neat.  I used it here and there (via the remote app).  It took taking selfies to a new level!  that, and every once in a while, like on vacation or something I'd use the remote transfer app to upload something to facebook.  LOL...other than that, I have barely used the wifi.  It has stayed in the off mode for like 98% of the time I have had the body.

I used to think wifi on an SLR was a dumb gimmick, but I now wish I had it on my 5D3. Some of my editorial clients now want to art direct shoots in real time. Fortunately, this isn't for every shot, but just for the more important ones that may be used as cover images. Without wifi, my ghetto solution is taking a pic of my camera's LCD screen with my smartphone, then texting in to the client. Wifi would sure make this agonizing process less painful.

Being able to trigger the camera remotely and seeing the images on my phone would also save tons of time when I have to rig the tripod up someplace that's difficult to access (like the top of my van :)) I'll probably just have to suck it up and get a Cam Ranger.

V8Beast

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #252 on: February 01, 2014, 01:52:15 PM »
Out of curiosity, what constitutes IQ?

A sharp, in-focus image would top my list ;D

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #252 on: February 01, 2014, 01:52:15 PM »

Orangutan

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #253 on: February 01, 2014, 02:11:51 PM »
In terms of per-unit manufacturing cost, sure, I wouldn't expect it to be much more than that either. My point is you don't just drop in a wifi chip and be done with it. You have to design the camera with all these various factors in mind from the getgo, and for each additional feature you add, like WiFi, and GPS, etc. you increase the overall complexity of the product as a whole. The up-front R&D cost increases, the prototyping/testing phase increases, and the extra money spent on R&D has to be recouped somehow.
I agree in principle, particularly as relates to current and previous camera models.  However, I think you're looking backward rather than forward.  Let's take Eye-Fi as an example: this is a card that plugs-in and works.  Canon did not have to do any specific engineering to make it work...I think it was essentially a kluge, and it costs around $50, including a bit of flash.  Why is this easy?  Because it's using an existing internal bus.  Think of laptops after the standardization of PCMCIA and the wide array of cards that became available.  Once you have a standard bus design everything gets much easier.  A well-designed internal bus would connect the memory card slot(s) and the WiFi and the GPS and the digital external mic and 4G and 5G and....   This is not to say that all design and integration issues will dissipate, but they will become vastly simpler than if you have to engineer a system where all components connect directly to each other.

I don't agree with AvTvM's simplistic expectation that any new feature that appears in any new camera should necessarily be available in all cameras released 6 months later.  On the other hand, I'd prefer to phrase the question as "how can we make this easy" rather than "why isn't this easy."

Orangutan

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #254 on: February 01, 2014, 02:16:11 PM »
I used to think wifi on an SLR was a dumb gimmick, but I now wish I had it on my 5D3. Some of my editorial clients now want to art direct shoots in real time. Fortunately, this isn't for every shot, but just for the more important ones that may be used as cover images. Without wifi, my ghetto solution is taking a pic of my camera's LCD screen with my smartphone, then texting in to the client. Wifi would sure make this agonizing process less painful.

Being able to trigger the camera remotely and seeing the images on my phone would also save tons of time when I have to rig the tripod up someplace that's difficult to access (like the top of my vanI'll probably just have to suck it up and get a Cam Ranger.

I believe there are SD to CF adapters that will work with WiFi SD cards.  It might work on your 5D3...or not.  It could be worth the time to scan the boards, or just pony up the $$ to try it out.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #254 on: February 01, 2014, 02:16:11 PM »