April 16, 2014, 01:16:32 AM

Author Topic: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]  (Read 32494 times)

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #330 on: February 04, 2014, 02:40:46 PM »
It's also worth noting that Canon really hit a homerun with the RT system, even as it stands today. 

depends what expectations you had. Compared to the age-old, limiting and not very reliable optical triggering: YES.

Compared to what I would expect from a brand-new, proprietary "flagship-priced" flash system by the market leading camera gear company (right?  :P) I#d rate it "so-so". Yes, it is less limiting, yes it seems to be working reliably within the stated range and yes, it finally gives group-mode in conjunction with post2012 EOS camera models (is that 3 or is it more? 5D3, 1Dx ... plus some digital rebel?). Plus some nice remote 2-way triggering  effects.

But ... there are shortcomings ... as in the days past: still no 2nd curtain sync, still no no hypersync (rather the other way round with pre-2012 cameras) and no zoom-reflector control. Still no ability to include monolights in an RT-setup. Very basic backwards compatibility - even with still-current Canon speedlites [e.g. 430EX or ring-flashes]. 

So, in my book, they made it to first base and stopped right there. Although the ball is good and no outfielder  erm competitor managed to catch it yet. Although 2nd and 3rd base are free. For whatever weird reason, Canon decided to stop right there, rather than going for a homerun and win the game. Just standing there, frozen at first base. Weird, ain't it?  ;D

WOW...so other than the Odin system, and I think radio poppers which are both a bit pricey (I think PW does a system that offers high speed sync and 2nd curtain, but that system is pricey too), there isn't much that does offer that! 

Optical trigger, yeah, it does suck, no arguments there.   But for about $60 (cactus v5) you can use triggers which are reliable!  Of course your using manual settings with these triggers.   But they work!  As with all things in photography, you make compromises unless you have an unlimited budget. 

One last thing regarding sync speed....

why is it that the sony a7 and a7r have the same sync speeds as most common SLR's????  I ask you directly because you seem to beleive these new systems are the template for all that is good in the world, why is it that with no mirror the zync speeds are still low?  And I am talking flash on camera, not even off camera.  shouldn't that be one of those benefits to ditching the mirror?       
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #330 on: February 04, 2014, 02:40:46 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #331 on: February 04, 2014, 02:42:59 PM »
why is it that the sony a7 and a7r have the same sync speeds as most common SLR's????  I ask you directly because you seem to beleive these new systems are the template for all that is good in the world, why is it that with no mirror the zync speeds are still low?  And I am talking flash on camera, not even off camera.  shouldn't that be one of those benefits to ditching the mirror?     

The mirror is gone, but the mechanical shutter is still there…and it's the shutter that imposes the Xsync limitation (shortest duration where the sensor is completely exposed - above Xsync both curtains are traveling across the sensor in a 'rolling' slit).
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CarlTN

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #332 on: February 05, 2014, 01:28:26 AM »
The 5D 3 really is nothing more than a 5D 2 with - at long last - a decent af-system in it. Hardly any improvement in IQ and resolution.

The 5DII delivered excellent IQ and resolution, the only real lacking features were AF performance and perhaps frame rate.  The 5DIII dramatically improved AF and also improved fps, weather sealing, etc.

The 5D 3 is really dated in every respect.

Sure, that's why it's selling so poorly, and all those 'modern' cameras in that class are outselling it.  Except...they're not.

The 6D further improved on the 5D2, yet you don't give it any respect.  You're biased, that's all.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #333 on: February 05, 2014, 02:34:00 AM »
it's 2014 already and yet we haven't seen any pro DSLR with built in SSD..

since it's been rumored that nikon 4s will have 4k video capability, all i want from canon is another line of DSLR that featuring:
- >256GB SSD storage
- 3,2 inch articulated screen
- 60fps uncompressed  fullHD +120fps compressed FullHD (adding 30fps 4k video would be generous)
- high capacity battery

all the cinema goodness in a standard DSLR body :D

just pack it with 20-ish mp high sensitivity sensor, and sell it under $4k :D

AvTvM

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #334 on: February 05, 2014, 04:56:44 AM »
why is it that the sony a7 and a7r have the same sync speeds as most common SLR's????  I ask you directly because you seem to beleive these new systems are the template for all that is good in the world, why is it that with no mirror the zync speeds are still low?  And I am talking flash on camera, not even off camera.  shouldn't that be one of those benefits to ditching the mirror?     


The mirror is gone, but the mechanical shutter is still there…and it's the shutter that imposes the Xsync limitation (shortest duration where the sensor is completely exposed - above Xsync both curtains are traveling across the sensor in a 'rolling' slit).


exactly.

Aside from the "generic problem" of a mechanical shutter, Sony's greedy and shortsighted (!) choice of A) whimpy battery and B) crappy mechanical shutter unit [noise, lots of vibration, bad X-sync] for the A7R seriously degrades what would otherwise have been a truely amazing camera. Unfortunately. Shutter situation in A7 is somewhat better since it has an electronic "first curtain" and 1/250s X-sync as opposed to only 1/160s for A7R.

Much shorter X-sync times are one of the reasons why I am clamoring for true "solid state" mirrorless cameras, with "no moving parts whatsoever" inside. :-)

see also: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=19224.msg364739#msg364739
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 05:04:37 AM by AvTvM »

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #335 on: February 05, 2014, 07:00:34 AM »
The 6D further improved on the 5D2, yet you don't give it any respect.  You're biased, that's all.

Sure, it further improved the IQ a bit, which was already excellent on the 5DII.  It improved the metering, too.  It didn't significantly improve the AF or frame rate, which were the 5DII's biggest deficits.  The 6D has a less robust shutter with a 1-stop lower max speed, slower Xsync, and a shorter rated lifespan. The 6D has a substantially longer shutter lag.  So considering IQ only, the 6D improved on the 5DII, but overall it's a mixed bag.  The 5DIII improved on the 5DII in pretty much every way.  At least on Amazon (not that it means much) the 5DIII is outselling the 6D.

The 6D's biggest 'feature' is its lower cost. 

Of course, AvTvM might say the 6D is not 'dated' because it has WiFi.  Nice if you want to upload your JPGs to Facebook on the fly, I suppose.  I thought it would be great for remote triggering, but someone pointed out that after a short time the connection drops, and you have to physically access the 6D to reactivate the link - that severely limits the utility, IMO (the WFT options for other bodies aren't limited in that way, but you pay a big premium for them).
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #336 on: February 05, 2014, 09:00:30 AM »
why is it that the sony a7 and a7r have the same sync speeds as most common SLR's????  I ask you directly because you seem to beleive these new systems are the template for all that is good in the world, why is it that with no mirror the zync speeds are still low?  And I am talking flash on camera, not even off camera.  shouldn't that be one of those benefits to ditching the mirror?     


The mirror is gone, but the mechanical shutter is still there…and it's the shutter that imposes the Xsync limitation (shortest duration where the sensor is completely exposed - above Xsync both curtains are traveling across the sensor in a 'rolling' slit).


exactly.

Aside from the "generic problem" of a mechanical shutter, Sony's greedy and shortsighted (!) choice of A) whimpy battery and B) crappy mechanical shutter unit [noise, lots of vibration, bad X-sync] for the A7R seriously degrades what would otherwise have been a truely amazing camera. Unfortunately. Shutter situation in A7 is somewhat better since it has an electronic "first curtain" and 1/250s X-sync as opposed to only 1/160s for A7R.

Much shorter X-sync times are one of the reasons why I am clamoring for true "solid state" mirrorless cameras, with "no moving parts whatsoever" inside. :-)

see also: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=19224.msg364739#msg364739


Exactly, the shutter issue and the slow flash sync speed of the A7R really hurt what would otherwise have been a truly amazing pocket camera.
This thing shouldn't have been rushed , after all , not many of us want to be beta testers for Sony or Samsung or whatever.

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #336 on: February 05, 2014, 09:00:30 AM »

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #337 on: February 05, 2014, 09:09:22 AM »
it's 2014 already and yet we haven't seen any pro DSLR with built in SSD..

since it's been rumored that nikon 4s will have 4k video capability, all i want from canon is another line of DSLR that featuring:
- >256GB SSD storage
- 3,2 inch articulated screen
- 60fps uncompressed  fullHD +120fps compressed FullHD (adding 30fps 4k video would be generous)
- high capacity battery

all the cinema goodness in a standard DSLR body :D

just pack it with 20-ish mp high sensitivity sensor, and sell it under $4k :D

Though 4K->2K video always looks better than native 2K, 2K editing and 2K final result are plenty. Did you know over 90% of movies today are filmed on film that is smaller than an FF sensor or recorded by a sensor that is smaller than an aps-c sensor, and in the case of film telecined at about 3K and edited in about 2.5K and then shown in the cinema at 2K? 4K is not necessary for making a movie, it's just the latest hype.

AvTvM

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #338 on: February 05, 2014, 04:17:31 PM »
The 6D further improved on the 5D2, yet you don't give it any respect.  You're biased, that's all.

Sure, it further improved the IQ a bit, which was already excellent on the 5DII.  It improved the metering, too.  It didn't significantly improve the AF or frame rate, which were the 5DII's biggest deficits.  The 6D has a less robust shutter with a 1-stop lower max speed, slower Xsync, and a shorter rated lifespan. The 6D has a substantially longer shutter lag.  So considering IQ only, the 6D improved on the 5DII, but overall it's a mixed bag.  The 5DIII improved on the 5DII in pretty much every way.  At least on Amazon (not that it means much) the 5DIII is outselling the 6D.

The 6D's biggest 'feature' is its lower cost. 

Of course, AvTvM might say the 6D is not 'dated' because it has WiFi.  Nice if you want to upload your JPGs to Facebook on the fly, I suppose.  I thought it would be great for remote triggering, but someone pointed out that after a short time the connection drops, and you have to physically access the 6D to reactivate the link - that severely limits the utility, IMO (the WFT options for other bodies aren't limited in that way, but you pay a big premium for them).

I consider
* 5D III = 5D IIN
* 6D = 5D II v1.1
 :D

6D basically is a FF digital rebel to me. Marekting crippled product with a reasonable sensor and Wifi. About equally bad as Nikon D610, but better than D600, since it did not do splatter movies with its mirror. :-)

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #339 on: February 05, 2014, 04:36:27 PM »
The 6D further improved on the 5D2, yet you don't give it any respect.  You're biased, that's all.

Sure, it further improved the IQ a bit, which was already excellent on the 5DII.  It improved the metering, too.  It didn't significantly improve the AF or frame rate, which were the 5DII's biggest deficits.  The 6D has a less robust shutter with a 1-stop lower max speed, slower Xsync, and a shorter rated lifespan. The 6D has a substantially longer shutter lag.  So considering IQ only, the 6D improved on the 5DII, but overall it's a mixed bag.  The 5DIII improved on the 5DII in pretty much every way.  At least on Amazon (not that it means much) the 5DIII is outselling the 6D.

The 6D's biggest 'feature' is its lower cost. 

Of course, AvTvM might say the 6D is not 'dated' because it has WiFi.  Nice if you want to upload your JPGs to Facebook on the fly, I suppose.  I thought it would be great for remote triggering, but someone pointed out that after a short time the connection drops, and you have to physically access the 6D to reactivate the link - that severely limits the utility, IMO (the WFT options for other bodies aren't limited in that way, but you pay a big premium for them).

I consider
* 5D III = 5D IIN
* 6D = 5D II v1.1
 :D

6D basically is a FF digital rebel to me. Marekting crippled product with a reasonable sensor and Wifi. About equally bad as Nikon D610, but better than D600, since it did not do splatter movies with its mirror. :-)

LOL. OMG this is such an unmitigated amount of bias against the 5D III. The 1D IIn was a MINOR update to the 1D II. The 1D IIn was mostly the same, with literally the same sensor, af system, same digic, etc. The ONLY changes with the n were firmware...picture styles...and a better LCD screen. You do realize that, right?

Trying to make it seem as though the 5D III is basically a 5D IIn is exceptionally naive and ignores a hell of a lot of facts. The 5D III was a massive upgrade compared to the 1D II -> 1D IIn update. It got an entirely NEW sensor that offered significant improvements in IQ (especially at high ISO), it got a new DIGIC chip, it got a radical update in AF system, it was the first non-1D body to get f/8 AF, it got a significant upgrade in metering sensor, it got the much-needed ergonomic and button placement upgrade, it got a weather sealing upgrade, it got a massive firmware update (akin to the 1D X firmware, which is WORLDS better than what the 5D II had), and a hell of a lot more!!!!

Saying the 5D III is like a 5D IIn is completely ignoring ALL of the facts. Man, you know, you indicated in a response to me on another thread not long ago that you wanted me to show you some more respect. I'm happy to do so...but AvTvM...you really gotta DESERVE it. Saying crap like the 5D III is just a 5D IIn doesn't help, at all, in the respect department. It isn't as bad as the spinhappy tiraid against Canon as a greedy, selfish, and dumb company that is missing all it's opportunities (as if you actually know anything about it), but it's still dishonest. It speaks to a considerable level of either naiveté (i.e. you really just DON'T know what your talking about), or you do know what your talking about and it speaks to someone who is trying to pull a fast one on unsuspecting readers. Neither are very respectable.

I can't respect the way you try to twist and convolute the facts. Sorry, but seriously...if you want to make a viable, cogent argument that other readers here on the forum will respect, don't go around making bullsh*t claims like "The 5D III is a minor upgrade, barely qualifies as a 5D IIn." That's a bold faced LIE! I KNOW you know that! And we aren't talking about a difference of opinion here...were talking about concrete facts. Verifiable, measurable differences in relative terms. The 5D III is not akin to a 5D IIn based on the actual, real-world, factual differences between a 1D IIn and the 1D II. The latter was a pitiful update, involving minor firmware and very minor hardware changes. The former was a very significant, measurably meaningful update involving massive changes in both firmware and hardware.

Facts, bud. I'll respect you if you stick to the facts.  :-\
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #340 on: February 05, 2014, 05:25:25 PM »
The 6D further improved on the 5D2, yet you don't give it any respect.  You're biased, that's all.

Sure, it further improved the IQ a bit, which was already excellent on the 5DII.  It improved the metering, too.  It didn't significantly improve the AF or frame rate, which were the 5DII's biggest deficits.  The 6D has a less robust shutter with a 1-stop lower max speed, slower Xsync, and a shorter rated lifespan. The 6D has a substantially longer shutter lag.  So considering IQ only, the 6D improved on the 5DII, but overall it's a mixed bag.  The 5DIII improved on the 5DII in pretty much every way.  At least on Amazon (not that it means much) the 5DIII is outselling the 6D.

The 6D's biggest 'feature' is its lower cost. 

Of course, AvTvM might say the 6D is not 'dated' because it has WiFi.  Nice if you want to upload your JPGs to Facebook on the fly, I suppose.  I thought it would be great for remote triggering, but someone pointed out that after a short time the connection drops, and you have to physically access the 6D to reactivate the link - that severely limits the utility, IMO (the WFT options for other bodies aren't limited in that way, but you pay a big premium for them).

I consider
* 5D III = 5D IIN
* 6D = 5D II v1.1
 :D

6D basically is a FF digital rebel to me. Marekting crippled product with a reasonable sensor and Wifi. About equally bad as Nikon D610, but better than D600, since it did not do splatter movies with its mirror. :-)

You certainly have a talent;  for losing credibility.

With the exception of the 5Dmkiii AF system, which you acknowledge, your premise for considering the camera to be a '5Dmkiin' is clearly based upon the fact that it has a dslr form and a sensor of about 20mp.

Canon answered all those users who wanted a fully 'professional grade' 5D mkii and didn't want the cost and bulk of a 1Ds mkiii. Quite apart from the AF, speed, dual cards, shutter durability, stainless steel bottom plate, transmissive lcd display, improved build and weather sealing, the sensor in the mkiii is a substantial improvement over the mkii at high high ISOs, but also has subtle improvements in total graduation and graduation to high and low lights, which give it ( and the other latest generation FF cameras) much more of a film like quality.

Looking at the sales success and feed back from users of the mkiii Canon has clearly produced the finest general purpose dslr of the current era.

However as it looks like a mkii, and the sensor is more or less the same mp, I suppose there will be those, like yourself, who think it's a mkiin, but then there are those who think the moon's made of cheese.

You've also contradicted yourself with the 6D. In one sentence you call it a '5D mkii v1.1', and in the next paragraph a FF rebel.

The 6D actually does not feel like a 5D at all; it has its own characteristics. It's a fine camera for the market that it is aimed at.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #341 on: February 05, 2014, 06:36:03 PM »
6D basically is a FF digital rebel to me. Marekting crippled product with a reasonable sensor and Wifi.


Oh dear, that was a grave mistake.  As soon as he reads this, mild-mannered CarlTN will head for the nearest phone booth or broom closet to turn himself into SuperCarl and take you down like General Zod. 



...and rightfully so.  While the sensor is only part of the camera, the 6D does offer the best sensor IQ Canon has today outside the ~$7K 1D X (and at ISO 100, the 6D has slightly more DR than the 1D X).  I stated that the shutter is less robust, but I bet many 6D owners never will never exceed 100K shots, need faster Xsync or 1/8000 s for shooting fast primes wide open in daylight.  Importantly, the 6D is substantially cheaper than the 5DII was, making that level of image quality much more affordable.
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #342 on: February 06, 2014, 02:45:30 AM »
Wow, I'm enjoying the fireworks here!  ;D

Anyway, back to the topic on hand. I have no doubt Canon will answer the D4s (which is actually a rather minor update based on the rumored specs). I am more curious if Canon has a high mp, high DR answer in a moderately sized body like the D800. :)

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #342 on: February 06, 2014, 02:45:30 AM »

jrista

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #343 on: February 06, 2014, 08:00:22 AM »
Wow, I'm enjoying the fireworks here!  ;D

Anyway, back to the topic on hand. I have no doubt Canon will answer the D4s (which is actually a rather minor update based on the rumored specs). I am more curious if Canon has a high mp, high DR answer in a moderately sized body like the D800. :)

HOW will they answer the D4s, though? I mean, is the 1D X not already THE answer? I find it highly doubtful that Canon would design, build, test, and release a successor to the wildly successful 1D X, which is already a far superior tool, just because of the minor updates coming in the D4s.

That's almost like a car manufacturer building an entirely new car only a few months after they put it on the market because their rival put prettier rims on their model, when the first car manufacturer already had kick-ass rims and was already selling the car like hotcakes.
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Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #344 on: February 06, 2014, 11:53:09 AM »
6D basically is a FF digital rebel to me. Marekting crippled product with a reasonable sensor and Wifi.


Oh dear, that was a grave mistake.  As soon as he reads this, mild-mannered CarlTN will head for the nearest phone booth or broom closet to turn himself into SuperCarl and take you down like General Zod. 



...and rightfully so.  While the sensor is only part of the camera, the 6D does offer the best sensor IQ Canon has today outside the ~$7K 1D X (and at ISO 100, the 6D has slightly more DR than the 1D X).  I stated that the shutter is less robust, but I bet many 6D owners never will never exceed 100K shots, need faster Xsync or 1/8000 s for shooting fast primes wide open in daylight.  Importantly, the 6D is substantially cheaper than the 5DII was, making that level of image quality much more affordable.


LOL at that pic...

In practice I have found the 6d to be a way more capable camera than the specs say and many reviews say.  I use it side by side with a 5d3, and depending on what and where and I'm shooting it's rare that I absolutely need the 5d3 to get the shot the way i want it.  Sometimes even, in challenging low light like at a reception, if i am not using a flash on cam the 6d has a better hit rate with focus using that center point than any point with the 5d3. 

But, none of what I say in on the matter will make much difference -  to those that are rational they've already heard me say exactly what I just said and many do have similar experiences with the 6d.  For action, yeah, it's not the best option.  But for most other things it's a great little body.

but in your eyes (AvTvM), both of these bodies are paper weights, because they have mirrors. 

Lastly, I kind of feel like you may be one of those people that's never happy.  I keep seeing you posting these demand lists, and the list keeps growing.  Canon could produce a mirrorless 1dx right now priced at 5d3 prices and you'd still complain about it (ohhhh its too large, or, it where is the tilt screen...)
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Re: Will Canon Answer the D4s? [CR2]
« Reply #344 on: February 06, 2014, 11:53:09 AM »