April 16, 2014, 12:20:12 AM

Author Topic: EF 16-35mm f/2.8 II + Lee Filters 105mm Circ. Polariser and circular holder  (Read 1982 times)

ahsanford

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I'm seeing a trend here:

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/lee-or-b-w-105mm-polariser-filter.221570/

"The Lee [105mm polarizer on the Foundation holder] is too thick for wide angle lens on full frame - you can't shoot at 17mm as black frame is very visible until around 20mm."

It's also pretty clear from all my Googling that Lee would get more converts if they explained all the little nerdy details a bit more.  Users of ND grads are not technical lightweights, and the little details mean the difference between having the setup you want or having purchased the wrong lens, the wrong filter, etc.

I say this b/c tons of (apparently) bright folks don't understand the option of the 105 with the adapter vs. tandem Foundation holders with a 4x4 polarizer.  I sure didn't understand before all this digging around and all your help the last few days.

And data is lacking.  So I either:

  • Buy all of my choices, try them on something incrementally widen-able (say a 16-35) and return all but the one I don't want.
  • Hope someone has all the data posted.  This thread (and the other links I've posted) peg the number around 20-21mm for the 105 CPL + two slots on a Lee holder, +/- a bit depending on the CPL in question.  But we still lack tandem holder vignetting info.  (Has anyone repeated the experiment on this thread with tandem holders and a square CPL?

And I don't mean to whine.  Lee has a great system that just needs to get one level deeper in technical details to sell more products.  Even if we choose someone else's 105mm CPL, it's still going on their hardware, right?

- A

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JustMeOregon

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Quote
This was from 2012 so I think he had the standard B+W 105mm and not that mondo stepped Extra-Wide version I linked.


Yeah, you can see on the pic that shows the two polarizers side-by-side that the 105mm B+W filter is the standard F-Pro mount, not the special-order Extra-Wide mount.

In regards to the LEE Filters Accessory Tandem Adapter (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/87111-REG/LEE_Filters_TA_Accessory_Tandem_Adapter.html) that allows two Lee filter holders to be mounted together piggy-back-style and rotated independently: I've never used one but I just can't see how it could possibly be less thick then using just a screw-in polarizer. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that you'd easily get more vignetting using a tandem rig with a 4x4" polarizer...

But damn you! Now you've got me thinking again (me thinking = dangerous = expensive)... Using a 4x4" polarizer in my current 2-slot filter holder wouldn't really work with an ND-grad (due to lack of independent orientation). BUT it would work just fine with my Big Stopper! So if I buy a Lee 4x4" polarizer (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/216637-REG/LEE_Filters_PLC_G_4x4_Circular_Polarizer_Glass.html) I would be able to use the entire focal length range of the Canon 16-35 II without any vignetting! If I should need to also use an ND-grad along with my Big Stopper & polarizer (a very common situation for me here on the Oregon coast) I would just have to hand-hold it or use bubble gum as I recently read here on some other thread...

Richard

ahsanford

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This was from 2012 so I think he had the standard B+W 105mm and not that mondo stepped Extra-Wide version I linked.


Yeah, you can see on the pic that shows the two polarizers side-by-side that the 105mm B+W filter is the standard F-Pro mount, not the special-order Extra-Wide mount.

In regards to the LEE Filters Accessory Tandem Adapter (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/87111-REG/LEE_Filters_TA_Accessory_Tandem_Adapter.html) that allows two Lee filter holders to be mounted together piggy-back-style and rotated independently: I've never used one but I just can't see how it could possibly be less thick then using just a screw-in polarizer. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that you'd easily get more vignetting using a tandem rig with a 4x4" polarizer...

But damn you! Now you've got me thinking again (me thinking = dangerous = expensive)... Using a 4x4" polarizer in my current 2-slot filter holder wouldn't really work with an ND-grad (due to lack of independent orientation). BUT it would work just fine with my Big Stopper! So if I buy a Lee 4x4" polarizer (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/216637-REG/LEE_Filters_PLC_G_4x4_Circular_Polarizer_Glass.html) I would be able to use the entire focal length range of the Canon 16-35 II without any vignetting! If I should need to also use an ND-grad along with my Big Stopper & polarizer (a very common situation for me here on the Oregon coast) I would just have to hand-hold it or use bubble gum as I recently read here on some other thread...

Richard


Option 3 is the less elegant one -- you just use a third slot for a 4x4 polarizer (behind any combination of two ND or ND grads) and you give up on independent rotation - let the needs of the ND Grad decide rotation.  You then just pull the polarizer out and drop it in at a 90 degree turn, taking the most polarized option between the 0 and 90 degree option.

It's crude, but some folks I was reading about espouse that over the added cost and vignetting risk of the 105 CPL up front or the added vignetting risk of the tandem (which far less people seem to point out as an option - the 105 CPL seems to be the favored recommendation).

Again, it's options and tradeoffs, and this post seemed to nail it:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-883069.html

"Yep, it's either being locked in to 90 degree orientations (Lee square polarizer), handholding your grads in front of a screw-in CPL, rotating your CPL when you don't want it (attaching holder to screw-in CPL) or dealing with vignetting below 20mm (105mm CPL).

Pick whatever is your lesser evil. ;)"

- A


JustMeOregon

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It's been so long since I first got my Lee Foundation Kit (years & years now), I can't remember just why, but some issue required that I have the filter holder configured with a maximum of 2 slots.

And not having independent control over the orientation of the polarizer and the ND-grad is absolutely unacceptable for my style of photos. I rarely use my polarizers in an all-or-nothing manner. Even at the extremes, I would usually favor just a hint of a reflection over none at all; or in the other extreme, I would want to tone-down the glare just a tad... Honestly, I don't see the heavy-handed, all-or-nothing, 90-degree-angle approach being acceptable to very many photographers for very long...

So I'm seriously thinking of getting the Lee 4x4" polarizer. When the situation calls for a focal length wider than 22mm, a polarizer, a Big Stopper, and an ND-grad in my 2-slot filter holder I'll just have to hand-hold or resort to bubble gum...

ahsanford

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It's been so long since I first got my Lee Foundation Kit (years & years now), I can't remember just why, but some issue required that I have the filter holder configured with a maximum of 2 slots.

And not having independent control over the orientation of the polarizer and the ND-grad is absolutely unacceptable for my style of photos. I rarely use my polarizers in an all-or-nothing manner. Even at the extremes, I would usually favor just a hint of a reflection over none at all; or in the other extreme, I would want to tone-down the glare just a tad... Honestly, I don't see the heavy-handed, all-or-nothing, 90-degree-angle approach being acceptable to very many photographers for very long...

So I'm seriously thinking of getting the Lee 4x4" polarizer. When the situation calls for a focal length wider than 22mm, a polarizer, a Big Stopper, and an ND-grad in my 2-slot filter holder I'll just have to hand-hold or resort to bubble gum...

I don't often go wider than 24mm on my FF rig... but if I'm sinking $400+ on the 105 ring and 105 CPL, I'd like to know I could go wider than 24 someday after that kind of investment.

- A

ahsanford

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Okay, I finally have some first-hand info to share on this front...  This will be a few posts.

[cracks knuckles at the keyboard]

I picked up the Lee 105mm adaptor ring and and the B+W 105mm MRC Kaesemann CPL identified below (same one at both links):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/10873-REG/B_W_65016142_105mm_Kaeseman_Circular_Polarizing.html

https://www.schneideroptics.com/Ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=767&IID=9657

Attached is a pic of it side by side with my go-to 77mm MRC Kaesemann CPL.  It's much thicker.  I measured a total thickness of 11.5mm or so.  About 3.0-3.5mm of that is below the non-rotating ring of the CPL that you turn to thread it on to the Lee Adaptor ring, so the rest is a stouter chunk of glass and a very tall ring. 

More posts of the setup to follow...

- A



ahsanford

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Okay, so here are shots of the setup's thickness.

For starters, I haven't bought the 82mm adaptor ring for the Zeiss 21mm or Canon 16-35mm yet as I wanted to check the vignetting on what I currently own.  (There will be a subsequent post on this.)

So these are shots of the Canon 24-70 F/4L IS USM on my 5D3, one component added at a time:

1) Naked lens
2) + Lee 77mm wide angle ring threaded on
3) + Lee Foundation holder with the 105mm Adapter ring (no slots removed, so there are two 4x4/4x6 slots in front of the 105 ring
4) + the B+W CPL

More to come...

- A

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ahsanford

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Now here's a bird's eye of the holder's slots.

The idea is to shoot most of the time with just the two slots -- one for ND grad, the second for a second ND grad or a straight ND to get motion in fluids.

But in some instances, I want the option to use a CPL in front of that to (a) tame blue skies at longer FLs or (b) tame reflections or look into/thorugh water at any FL.

And for those who would say "I'd just screw on that ring when I need it" / "I'd likely go with one slot and add a second when the shot calls for it", please lose yourself of that notion.  Assembling the 105mm ring and screwing it down is an exercise in patience, dexterity, and frustration.  The Lee foundation kit screws (which I was stuck with, no new screws are offered with Lee's adaptor ring) are just barely long enough to catch, and screwing it down took spectacular pressure and perhaps 20 minutes of failed attempts before I got 3 out of 4 screws to take.  One still spins freely right now no matter how hard I try.  (I will be heading to a local hardware store for a replacement that is longer, but it is stable for now.)

The take home in assembling this is that you can make changes with a small screwdriver, but I'd never try to do this in the field.  I would only take this apart with great light and a nice work surface. 

Vignetting checks come next...

- A

ahsanford

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And now the vignetting shots.

First, all were taken at F/11 to eliminate lens vignetting as a possible culprit.  Also, I had the peripheral illumination feature of the camera turned off.

Shots are straight JPGs, auto-leveled and shrunk for upload.  I lacked the magically fine fingers of JustMeOregon, so my shots came out 24 / 28 / 31 / 33 / 35 on the 24-70 F/4.   

The first batch is attached.  See the names of each shot under each pic to see what FL it was.

This the entire Lee setup with NO CPL in place.  So any vignetting seen is the work of that 105mm adaptor ring only. (The wide angle ring + Lee rig without the 105 adaptor ring won't vignette down to 17mm according to Lee.)

More coming...

- A

« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 08:00:04 PM by ahsanford »

ahsanford

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And here are the shots with the CPL...

And the verdict is in.

Using this apparatus without a CPL shows a kiss of vignetting right at 24mm but nearly immediately disappears above that FL.  So the Lee 105mm adaptor ring will slightly vignette on the 24-70 F/4L IS at 24mm. 

However, with the B+W CPL I linked higher up in this thread, we see stronger vignetting at 24mm, but it seems to be gone by 28mm.  So the CPL does in fact make it worse (based on the intensity of the vignetting) by I'd guess 2-3mm.

Limitations of this comically unscientific study:

1) I'm told not all lenses are their exact FL, so your mileage may vary with different lenses in this setup.

2) Note that the vignetting is strnger on the right hand side (the forum view seems to crop a bit, please open the images as downloads).  I would say that this could be a little tolerance or play in the 4x6 filter in the holder but it wasn't using that -- everything keys off the adaptor ring and very snuggly attached holder with the Lee two nubs + brass guillotine latch.  No idea why the vignetting is asymmetric.

So now I have a quandary for my upcoming Hawaii trip.  This setup is A+ for my 28 prime or my 24-70 zoomed in the slightest amount.  But if I want to rent an ultrawide (and I do), this is much more complicated than just taking off the CPL for those shots -- the adaptor ring is also in the way, and as said before, I wouldn't perform that surgery in the field. 

So I've got some strategizing to do on this front.  Options as I see them:

1) Eliminate one 4x6 holder slot and shoot whole days of the trip that way.  Hope I don't need an exotic ND grad combination or the need to use an ND grad and the Big Stopper simultaneously.

2) Use the 24-70 for the whole trip and shoot 24mm without the CPL or 28mm with the CPL.  Give up on ultrawide with filters.

3) Just give up on ultrawide CPL use.  Return the 105 CPL and adaptor ring to B+H and rent that ultrawide lens and shoot with it.  When I need a CPL, forego the Lee setup and just switch to the 24-70 with a traditional 77mm CPL attached.

4) The nuclear spendy option would be to have two Lee setups, one with one slot dedicated to ultrawide use, and another like shown in this thread for 24-28mm minimum use. 

I'll just say now that #4 is out.  That's just wasteful for such a niche need. 

Ideas?  Your thoughts?

- A

« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 08:04:48 PM by ahsanford »

JustMeOregon

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Polarization is one of the only "effects" that really can't be done in post with Lightroom or faked with Photoshop. I wouldn't walk out my front door, let alone go to Hawaii, without a polarizer for every situation I could imagine...

I would strongly advise holding on to the 105mm CPL and just leave the 105-adapter-ring installed all the time. Without the CPL, the additional vignetting of just the 105-adapter-ring is truly negligible. In the "real world" I'm quite sure that you'll hardly ever notice that slight amount of soft vignetting; even though now of course you'll be looking for it all the time...

Richard

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