December 21, 2014, 04:32:53 AM

Author Topic: Magic Lantern adds 1/3-1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.  (Read 33448 times)

DanielW

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2014, 12:13:56 PM »
I used the term wake up. I was referring to waking from sleep delay and not the power on delay.

Sorry, I read this as wake up from power off, please forgive me misunderstanding this.

Congratulations for the politeness!

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2014, 12:13:56 PM »

AtSea

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2014, 12:46:55 PM »
Is anyone able to translate into lamens' terms what their latest findings indicate/what the hurdle currently is? From my understanding they're trying to figure out exactly what Canon's processing is doing to RAW images in order to see exactly what their DR shift has done?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 02:19:36 PM by AtSea »

Marsu42

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2014, 03:57:59 AM »
From my understanding they're trying to figure out exactly what Canon's processing is doing to RAW images in order to see exactly what their DR shift has done?

Much simpler than that: For reasons unknown, Canon is simply throwing away 1/3-1/2 stops of dynamic range, you can recover that by changing some setting in the camera. Plus the "trick" from Canon to compensate the light loss inherent to faster lenses is not beneficial if you shoot raw, so ML is working on a way to give you the "real" raw data.

Woody

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2014, 11:02:50 AM »
Much simpler than that: For reasons unknown, Canon is simply throwing away 1/3-1/2 stops of dynamic range, you can recover that by changing some setting in the camera. Plus the "trick" from Canon to compensate the light loss inherent to faster lenses is not beneficial if you shoot raw, so ML is working on a way to give you the "real" raw data.

And on the 6D, one may be able to recover as much as 2/3 stop of dynamic range? Wow.

Marsu42

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2014, 11:05:38 AM »
And on the 6D, one may be able to recover as much as 2/3 stop of dynamic range? Wow.

Nope, it's about the same as on 5d3, about 1/2 stop - so the 6d keeps "just" the ~1ev advantage on higher iso vs 5d3... I clarified this in the first post.

AtSea

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2014, 11:07:06 AM »
From my understanding they're trying to figure out exactly what Canon's processing is doing to RAW images in order to see exactly what their DR shift has done?

Much simpler than that: For reasons unknown, Canon is simply throwing away 1/3-1/2 stops of dynamic range, you can recover that by changing some setting in the camera. Plus the "trick" from Canon to compensate the light loss inherent to faster lenses is not beneficial if you shoot raw, so ML is working on a way to give you the "real" raw data.

Now, could this have to do with the way the highlights or shadows are rendered 'past the brink' so to speak - Canon wasn't yet comfortable with it at those extremes so they set a limiter of sorts?

Anyway, very excited about seeing this in action and some examples along with it. Thanks for all of the hard work, it's great news for us.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 11:19:00 AM by AtSea »

HadMatter

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2014, 06:25:11 PM »
It says that in order to achieve the 15 stops dynamic range, you need to use this in combination with the dual ISO module. Would that result in extra noise or any other image degradation that comes from shooting in higher ISOs? What's the IQ like when using this?

 I'm very excited by this as I was quite tempted to pull the trigger on the A7R.


(PS: Hi, I'm a long-time lurker, first time poster)

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2014, 06:25:11 PM »

tron

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2014, 07:15:02 PM »
There is no extra noise. Instead there is less. This is the concept. There is less noise so the shadows can be increased more.
But I guess the maximum DR advantage would be at ISO 100. Now I hope they do the same for 5D2...

East Wind Photography

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2014, 08:22:09 PM »
Breakthrough at Magic Lantern, imho this elevates it to a must-have and makes Canon look really stupid: They at last figured out what the digic registers having to do with iso are, and by fine-tuning them your camera now gets an additional 1/2 stop and more of dynamic range, no strings attached. Just use +1/2 stop of ec (ML also has ec in m mode, just like the new 1dx fw) and you're done.

This means that for example on 5d3, iso 800 with ML has more dynamic range than iso 100 with Canon :-> ... and at high iso you're getting 7% more dr which is nothing to sneeze at, esp. since it builds upon Canon's advantage vs. Nikon: d800@6400 = ~8.3 & 5d3@6400 = ~9.4 ev making good ol' Canon the superior sensor for low light high contrast shooting, esp. the newer 6d.

Code: [Select]
5D3 Canon ML
100 11.16 11.55
200 11.08 11.52
400 10.96 11.41
800 10.76 11.2
1600 10.32 10.78
3200 9.72 10.2
6400 8.78 9.35
12800 8.01 8.59

Read all about it here, test modules are about to be out, next coming to a nightly build near you! Here's the dev thread if you want to follow the development: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=9867.msg96529#msg96529

Last not least, in combination with the dual_iso module ML now allows you to cover 15 stops of dynamic range in one shot w/o bracketing (by interlacing the shot with two iso values, meaning there's some loss of fine detail in the extreme highlights/shadows). If you feel exposure challenged, you can use the ettr module to automatically set the exposure so it covers exactly the dynamic range of the scene with optimum snr :-)

Great report.  I havent had a chance to try any of this.  Wonderiing what effect all of this has on drive mode frame rates?

dude

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2014, 09:48:44 PM »
Does anyone think Canon is reading this stuff because I am baffled as to why they would cut shot the DR and cheat on RAW's with fast lenses.

1DX, 5diii, M
L lenses for all occasions

weixing

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2014, 10:17:10 PM »
Does anyone think Canon is reading this stuff because I am baffled as to why they would cut shot the DR and cheat on RAW's with fast lenses.
Hi,
    IMHO, commercial product don't push their product to the limit... they usually hold back to ensure reliability... it's just like computer when you can overclock the processor on your custom made PC to the limit, but most major brand PC manufacturer won't overclock the same processor on their PC to that limit.

    Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 10:19:15 PM by weixing »

funkboy

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2014, 03:39:06 AM »
The impossibility of the boot flag reset (= warranty loss) ist the only thing that stops me and thousands other people from trying the ML RAW. So far I could not find any way to do it.

A Canon rep was quoted on the record as saying something to the effect of:

Quote
There's no way to "void" your warranty on a Canon camera.  There is only the question of "covered" repairs and "uncovered" repairs.  If the camera is still within the warranty period, the specific repair request you're submitting will be evaluated by the repair center as "covered" or "uncovered" based on whether the issue is determined to have been caused by a problem covered by our warranty policy.

Google it a bit & I'm sure you'll find it.

Basically it means that if you change the boot flag in all likelyhood the only warranty repair that wouldn't be covered would be if the camera was determined to be damaged by you monkeying with the firmware.

...which is a much better policy than e.g. certain Android phone makers that say "sure we'll give you the knob so you can unlock the bootloader, but don't expect us to repair your phone if the camera module dies".

Marsu42

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2014, 04:22:25 AM »
...which is a much better policy than e.g. certain Android phone makers that say "sure we'll give you the knob so you can unlock the bootloader, but don't expect us to repair your phone if the camera module dies".

I'm sure this depends a lot on local law, but in the EU/Germany it was ruled again and again that tampering with a product doesn't automatically void all warranty even if the manufacturer says so. This esp. concerns badges "warranty void if removed", but will also apply for example to mechanical failure which has nothing to do with the installed ML.

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2014, 04:22:25 AM »

Scott_McPhee

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2014, 07:12:54 AM »
Is this the new nightly build for the 5D3 that adds this?

 Latest Build

    Built on: 2014-01-24 00:11:15 +0000
    Changeset: 42c206c28f3a8b33e04ac075f66526dcf55901bc

I am really interested to try this on my 5D3 as I have seen some wonderful shots taken using features such as dual ISO but just concerned, as we all are, of damage to the camera.

I work with a single 5D3 and have heard about boot times being much longer.
Also, how does any settings I have like AFMA and Canon stock settings work along with ML - are they still used?

Sorry for the questions, ML newbie here!  :)

cayenne

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2014, 10:32:20 AM »
The impossibility of the boot flag reset (= warranty loss) ist the only thing that stops me and thousands other people from trying the ML RAW. So far I could not find any way to do it.

A Canon rep was quoted on the record as saying something to the effect of:

Quote
There's no way to "void" your warranty on a Canon camera.  There is only the question of "covered" repairs and "uncovered" repairs.  If the camera is still within the warranty period, the specific repair request you're submitting will be evaluated by the repair center as "covered" or "uncovered" based on whether the issue is determined to have been caused by a problem covered by our warranty policy.

Google it a bit & I'm sure you'll find it.

Basically it means that if you change the boot flag in all likelyhood the only warranty repair that wouldn't be covered would be if the camera was determined to be damaged by you monkeying with the firmware.

...which is a much better policy than e.g. certain Android phone makers that say "sure we'll give you the knob so you can unlock the bootloader, but don't expect us to repair your phone if the camera module dies".

I"m actually no that worried about the warranty stuff....

I'm more concerned with the long boot and wakeup times that seem to also be a permanent change even if you remove the ML software.

:(

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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2014, 10:32:20 AM »