November 28, 2014, 04:07:13 AM

Author Topic: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?  (Read 5882 times)

MLfan3

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2014, 05:02:43 AM »
thanks for this post, it is amazing but I think it is all about politics and budget reason.
who will use a lowly Canon or sony when they can afford Alexa?

but why is there no Red in the list?
any way, great info, thanks.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2014, 05:02:43 AM »

Sella174

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 780
  • So there!
    • View Profile
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2014, 05:26:37 AM »
No, if that was their plan Magic Lantern would be buried under a sea of cease and desist notices.

Modifying something you own is not illegal.

Doesn't matter if it's legal or not. Canon has enough money to troll them into the ground using legal fees at the courthouse.

Funny legal system you have there.

In comparison, over here in South Africa, the courts have the sanction to award extreme compensation to the defendant on the grounds of malicious action on the part of the applicant. So, as my father always says: "Sue me, I can use the money."
Happily ignoring the laws of physics and the rules of photography to create better pictures.

dilbert

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3241
    • View Profile
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2014, 07:44:24 AM »
What will it take for Canon to have a chance of overcoming ARRI?

Well first they'll need to deliver a sensor that has more than 14 stops of DR or least that of the D800.

Look at any of the film reviews that compare *any* Canon digital camera with the ARRI and you'll see that the ARRI always blows away the Canon when it comes to DR. Even the C500. Heck, even the use of film (Kodak) blows away all Canon digital cameras when it comes to DR.

Is DR important to film folks?

Hell yeah! Watch some of the Zacuto clips and listen to what folks say about Canon DR "Yeah, it might be 11 in the test but really you only get 10 workable." and how they talk about the ARRI and what it allows them to do.

Ellen Schmidtee

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 441
    • View Profile
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2014, 08:22:27 AM »
What will it take for Canon to have a chance of overcoming ARRI?

Well first they'll need to deliver a sensor that has more than 14 stops of DR or least that of the D800.

Trying not to open a can of worms...

As someone noted in the video, Canon could be targeting a different market.

E.g. DPAF and STM shows Canon aims for a lower end market, e.g. parents making videos of toddlers, where people will not follow focus manually. This is not to say I think those technologies work perfectly, only that it tells about a market Canon aims for.

On the other hand, Canon has released cinema cameras with PL mount, and I think Canon would need a better sensor in that market.

So far it seems (at least to me) Canon has made a good compromise, but if it doesn't release sensors with better IQ in the near future, my guess is sales will suffer.

dilbert

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3241
    • View Profile
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2014, 11:04:58 AM »
What will it take for Canon to have a chance of overcoming ARRI?

Well first they'll need to deliver a sensor that has more than 14 stops of DR or least that of the D800.

Trying not to open a can of worms...

As someone noted in the video, Canon could be targeting a different market.

E.g. DPAF and STM shows Canon aims for a lower end market, e.g. parents making videos of toddlers, where people will not follow focus manually. This is not to say I think those technologies work perfectly, only that it tells about a market Canon aims for.

On the other hand, Canon has released cinema cameras with PL mount, and I think Canon would need a better sensor in that market.

So far it seems (at least to me) Canon has made a good compromise, but if it doesn't release sensors with better IQ in the near future, my guess is sales will suffer.

DPAF and STM are for DSLRs, not cinema cameras.

I'm not sure that sales will suffer, rather they'll just hit a "glass ceiling."

Niki

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 127
    • View Profile
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2014, 01:07:19 PM »
considering Hobbit, Iron Man 3, Transformers, Gone Girl, Pacific Rim and the recent release of Dragon, I'd say Red is firmly in there, just not at the oscars. Canon is not used as primary camera on any major film.   

It will be interesting to see how 4tvs change peoples mind set to shooting with Alexa or will we see a switch this year.   
alexa over red
kodak 35mm overall
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 01:09:09 PM by Niki »

Niki

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 127
    • View Profile
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2014, 01:09:52 PM »
ARRI is not Canon's biggest obstacle. CANON is Canon's biggest obstacle. There is still a huge demand for film and Canon don't make any film cameras. it's that simple.

yeap….!

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2014, 01:09:52 PM »

Niki

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 127
    • View Profile
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2014, 01:14:00 PM »
ARRI is not Canon's biggest obstacle. CANON is Canon's biggest obstacle. There is still a huge demand for film and Canon don't make any film cameras. it's that simple.

The future isn't film, though...and digital is rapidly gaining ground on film. Canon would have to shift resources from digital cinema to film in order to build up a product line and gain a presence...in a market that will decline in the long term. Not really a wise move. I think Canon has it right, building up a presence in digital cinema.

in between all the digital cameras they were to release one FILM CAMERA…WHAT A SURPRISE AND WHAT SALES!!

HurtinMinorKey

  • Canon 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 429
    • View Profile
    • carolineculler.com
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2014, 01:32:22 PM »
The TV market is where money is made, and Canon is doing pretty well there.

http://www.televisual.com/news-detail/Canon-C300-tops-list-of-most-popular-rental-cameras-_nid-2498.html

But for the high end market, the c500 isn't really in the mix. 

that1guyy

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 169
    • View Profile
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2014, 03:22:37 PM »
As to the title of this thread, NO.

Canon's Cinema line is not in the same league as an Arri cam. Most probably the Canons were used for the quick shots where there was a danger of the camera being destroyed. Since the Canons are so small, they can be strapped to cars and other vehicles unlike the huge Arri cameras.

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4019
    • View Profile
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2014, 09:59:31 PM »
Instead of chasing ARRI maybe they could've charged forward with the little guy market they had created as best they could instead of purposely crippling the abilities and usability features of all their DSLR camaeras. They could've had that dominated beyond dominated, but instead as soon as they realize they had something, they tried to cripple it, move stuff up in price and play market segment games and as of now, at least, are just another high-priced also ran.

No, if that was their plan Magic Lantern would be buried under a sea of cease and desist notices.

There is nothing illegal about Magic Lantern though so they really couldn't stop them and the outcry would be terrible were they to try to bury them in frivolous notices.

I suppose they could decide to lock the firmware down from now on though and make it awfully hard for it to work in the future.

But anyway it clearly is the plan as ML shows just how much performance they leave on the table. The 5D3 hardware is capable of delivering far more than it does as shipped (and there was no knowing that ML would ever unlock the key stuff) and leaving the usability features to sort or working ML hacks isn't exactly reaching after a market with best effort.

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4019
    • View Profile
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2014, 10:04:51 PM »
Risking another Wintel-vs-DEC-HP-Sun-etc comparison - getting into movie makers' minds & hearts (read: familiar with and appreciative of the product) before they have money to spend is a great way to make them prefer it when they do have it.

Canon would still need to develop properly spec-ed cameras & lenses for the right price, of course.

Although actually I'm not sure that works quite so much for the movie world does it? They seem to be far less fanboyish than stills shooters and very practical just give me what I need whatever the heck it's called no? Maybe I'm wrong, some stuff does seem to be pretty entrenched, but that seems to be how they talk and react about all the new digital stuff. It seemed like some who were crazy over the 5D2 suddenly turned on the 5D3 when it didn't deliver all the new stuff they had hoped for and moved along without a second thought, very much unlike the still shooting crowd. I could be wrong though.



Don Haines

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3480
  • Posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
    • View Profile
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2014, 10:07:14 PM »
As to the title of this thread, NO.

Canon's Cinema line is not in the same league as an Arri cam. Most probably the Canons were used for the quick shots where there was a danger of the camera being destroyed. Since the Canons are so small, they can be strapped to cars and other vehicles unlike the huge Arri cameras.
And some of the footage in Captain Phillips was shot on a GoPro.....

You can mount a GoPro almost anywhere and have it almost invisible.... you can mount it on the bottom of a quadricopter.... you can strap it onto someone for the view as they jump through a hatch or into the ocean... very hard to do with a $250,000 camera.... and if you break one, it's $249,700 cheaper to replace....

The best camera is the one in your hands

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2014, 10:07:14 PM »

Vidrios

  • SX60 HS
  • **
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2014, 12:06:39 AM »
First off for those of you who are saying Canon needs to stop with the whole DSLR for movies thing. That was not Canon's idea. Larry Thorpe, Imaging Guru for Canon, never ever intended the 5d Mark 2 for movies.  People still use them.  But that's a different topic.
Ok here are the tiers that need to be conquered before we get to Arri:
1. 4k - The C500 requires some sort of external recorder for 4k.  RED's been doing it a long time and IN CAMERA! The Sony F55 can at least do it internally. Yes it's compressed, but you can do slow motion internally as well on the F55. You can't do that with the C500. 
2. The Cinema EOS Line works great in the HD world, but is wildy over priced for what they do. The C100 should've never been invented (before you attack me I bought one so don't hate haha).  The C500 and C300 should've just been one camera that can shoot 4k and a C300 like camera should've been at the C100's price point where you can at least shoot on proper CF Cards and not annoying AVCHD with an HDMI cable (I miss HDSDI)
3. The F55 with an external recorder can give you at least 16 bit linear RAW which destroys what can come out of the C500.  Not to mention the lovely 240 fps that camera can do. The RED Dragon can do 6k (True 4k...almost) and internally and shooting 5k, 4k, 3k, 2k, 1080p (junk on the RED but oh well). And up to 300 fps on the RED.
4.  Canon has to compete with all that before we even touch Arri who is the established juggernaut in the industry.  Personally there is one camera the will wipe the floor in terms of resolution and the ONLY TRUE 4K camera on the market  - the Sony F65.  That camera is actually  8k ready.  Just wait. It's still in its infancy shooting movies like Oblivion and After Earth (terrible).  But check this out https://vimeo.com/81600295 (I can tell you right now if Belle isn't up for next year's Oscars they're crazy, not just for the cinematography, but the amazing story).     
5. Canon's low light performance is really well implemented in all three cinema EOS cameras (No I'm not including the 1DC because I'm not a fan of the video on it nor its highly compressed 4k, but it's decent, not worth $12k though). 

There are films using the C500 as B cams, but as A cams you do have short features such as this lovely one shot by  Edoardo Ponti(Son of Sofia Loren) https://vimeo.com/81420176 (Human Voice) shot in 2k because they would rather have 12 bit 2k flexibility in post than 10 bit 4k (not work $22,000). 

Anyway I'm a HUGE fan of Larry Thorpe, I think that as Canon enters the Cinema realm they've only just begun so it'll be interesting to see what lovely cameras are coming in the future. 

sanj

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1669
    • View Profile
Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2014, 10:45:48 AM »
ARRI is not Canon's biggest obstacle. CANON is Canon's biggest obstacle. There is still a huge demand for film and Canon don't make any film cameras. it's that simple.

Hahahahahaha

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Is ARRI Canon's Biggest Obstacle in Professional Cinema?
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2014, 10:45:48 AM »