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Author Topic: Screen gamut  (Read 22257 times)

IMG_0001

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Screen gamut
« on: January 21, 2014, 10:52:47 AM »
Hello everyone,

To make a long story short, my computer broke and after discussions on the following thread, I settled for a IPS touchscreen ASUS N550JV as a replacement. Now, the non-touchscreen (but IPS) version was reviewed at a couple places and said to have small gamut. I decided to test the touchscreen version with my Spyder4Elite and was stunned by the results (see attachment).

Now, the screen does appear to be high contrast and vivid with neat colors, but I'm surprised nonetheless. I was therefore wondering if anyone is aware of images meant to visually check the screen gamut in order to confirm the calibration/test results. Images with purposefully large gamut that would make obvious deviations in tones in out of gamut areas for example.

Thanks.
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Screen gamut
« on: January 21, 2014, 10:52:47 AM »

LDS

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2014, 11:09:50 AM »
touchscreen ASUS N550JV as a replacement
IMHO "touch screen" (aka "fingerprints") and "image processing" don't go well together. After some usr no matter what the gamut is, the dirt on the screen will change it...

IMG_0001

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2014, 01:12:53 PM »
touchscreen ASUS N550JV as a replacement
IMHO "touch screen" (aka "fingerprints") and "image processing" don't go well together. After some usr no matter what the gamut is, the dirt on the screen will change it...

I understand, but I will be the sole user of the laptop and I am pretty sure I can keep my hands clean and my usage of the touch functions to a minimum. ijudging by the contents of the stores I visited, the non touchscreen laptops are going to become rare soon anyways.
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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2014, 02:00:45 PM »
You will want a display calibration tool, and many of them will test the gamut.  You cannot tell just by looking at a image on the display.
 

Drizzt321

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2014, 02:46:43 PM »
You will want a display calibration tool, and many of them will test the gamut.  You cannot tell just by looking at a image on the display.

OP said he's checked it via Spyder4Elite, and based on the attached PDF, if I'm reading it right, it looks like it's 96% sRGB & 75% AdobeRGB which seems pretty good, although not quite wide-gamut from my knowledge.

I'd guess the better look of colors is just that you now have it calibrated. Previously they probably had no ICC profile, or just a fairly generic ICC profile for that panel.
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IMG_0001

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2014, 03:31:06 PM »
Thanks, the appearance was quite good out of the box, but still better once calibrated.

Mainly, the thing is that based on the machine price and reviews on the web, I was not expecting these kind of results. Not only the Spyder4Elite gives 97% sRGB, but the deltaEs are all under 5, and mostly under 3 which seems pretty good to me.

I just wanted a way to crosscheck these results without getting another screen calibrator. I had thought that there might have been images meant to show/emphasize the gamut limits of a screen or something like that.

Here is a review of the standard panel:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Asus-N550JV-CN201H-Notebook.98311.0.html

And one of the touchscreen (less in-depth):
http://www.tlbhd.com/asus-n550-review-17589/

What a mess, my camera's sensor is full of massless particules that keep on trying to behave like waves!

IMG_0001

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2014, 11:32:51 AM »
If anybody is interested, here is a way of checking your monitors out of gamut colors through Photoshop. It is reportedly not that precise, but interesting nevertheless. The principle is soft-proofing an image in Photoshop using your monitor profile as an output device. Out of gamut colors will then show as grey.

http://www.damiensymonds.com.au/art_smlgmt2.html
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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2014, 11:32:51 AM »

mackguyver

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2014, 12:12:51 PM »
If anybody is interested, here is a way of checking your monitors out of gamut colors through Photoshop. It is reportedly not that precise, but interesting nevertheless. The principle is soft-proofing an image in Photoshop using your monitor profile as an output device. Out of gamut colors will then show as grey.

http://www.damiensymonds.com.au/art_smlgmt2.html
While this is an interesting idea, I think this one fails on many levels, mainly because he's using a full-spectrum test image in a 8-bit (I presume based on his PS CS2 reference) application, which explains the "clipping" he refers to, which has nothing to do with gamut.   Also, when the author is concerned about how much of the sRGB (not AdobeRGB or ProRGB) profile his monitor shows, that's a little bizarre.  The whole idea of sRGB is to have common color space for web and everyday printing - i.e. for display on 99% of the screens out there that aren't color managed.  I'm also thinking that since PS uses the monitor's profile for soft-proofing, there's a feedback loop when you try to have the monitor proof itself. 

Back to the OP's topic, that's a decent monitor by desktop standards, but a pretty excellent one by laptop standards.
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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2014, 02:03:27 PM »
You will want a display calibration tool, and many of them will test the gamut.  You cannot tell just by looking at a image on the display.

OP said he's checked it via Spyder4Elite, and based on the attached PDF, if I'm reading it right, it looks like it's 96% sRGB & 75% AdobeRGB which seems pretty good, although not quite wide-gamut from my knowledge.


I certainly missed that one. :)
 
 

CarlTN

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2014, 02:53:39 PM »
I still like my Asus 248Q as is (other than my own settings).  I have to turn the contrast, brightness and color down quite a bit, because I don't work in a room with a lot of ambient light...such as a bright room full of windows or a brightly lit office, or something.  Even at this low setting, the images on screen already have more "apparent" contrast and color than any print has had (other than on metallic paper...which can look quite special in my opinion anyway!).  It has a pre-calibrated setting that is slightly too warm, far too bright and far too saturated color, to be all that accurate in my opinion.  With my own settings it's quite neutral, and even though shadow detail looks a bit muted, it's still far more than what shows up in lab-adjusted prints on lustre photo paper.  By comparison they have a very compressed contrast look to them, yet they still look fabulous with plenty of contrast...go figure.

For just viewing or displaying images it has a "scenery mode" and a "theater mode" that are bright enough to fry your brain...

jrista

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2014, 06:52:14 PM »
Thanks, the appearance was quite good out of the box, but still better once calibrated.

Mainly, the thing is that based on the machine price and reviews on the web, I was not expecting these kind of results. Not only the Spyder4Elite gives 97% sRGB, but the deltaEs are all under 5, and mostly under 3 which seems pretty good to me.

I just wanted a way to crosscheck these results without getting another screen calibrator. I had thought that there might have been images meant to show/emphasize the gamut limits of a screen or something like that.

Owning a DataColor Spyder myself (I actually bought the full DataColor suite during the Spyder3 days), I would point out that I do not believe DataColor's devices, including the Spyder4, are actually capable of calibrating displays to anything other than sRGB. Their devices are colorimeters, rather than spectrophotometers, and as such they are not as accurate and seem to be tuned to calibrating your screen relative to the sRGB gamut rather than the AdobeRGB gamut. DataColor has claimed there are software features that can be used to calibrate wide-gamut displays, however even with the latest software updates and 'elite' software, I have never been able to get anything other than sRGB calibration out of my Spyder devices for all of my screens.

If you want to truly test out your screen and see what it is truly capable of, you should probably pick up an X-Rite ColorMunki Design. ColorMunki Design is a true spectrophotometer, which is a scientific-grade high precision device that will perform a much more realistic and accurate calibration of your screen, and should theoretically work for any gamut.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 12:13:19 AM by jrista »

IMG_0001

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2014, 07:14:23 PM »
Thanks, the appearance was quite good out of the box, but still better once calibrated.

Mainly, the thing is that based on the machine price and reviews on the web, I was not expecting these kind of results. Not only the Spyder4Elite gives 97% sRGB, but the deltaEs are all under 5, and mostly under 3 which seems pretty good to me.

I just wanted a way to crosscheck these results without getting another screen calibrator. I had thought that there might have been images meant to show/emphasize the gamut limits of a screen or something like that.

Owning a DataColor Spyder myself (I actually bought the full DataColor suite during the Spyder3 days), I would point out that I do not believe DataColor's devices, including the Spyder4, are actually capable of calibrating displays to anything other than sRGB. Their devices are colorimeters, rather than spectrophotometers, and as such they are not as accurate and seem to be tuned to calibrating your screen relative to the sRGB gamut rather than the AdobeRGB gamut. DataColor has claimed there are software features that can be used to calibrate wide-gamut displays, however even with the latest software updates and 'elite' software, I have never been able to get anything other than sRGB calibration out of my Spyder devices for all of my screens.

If you want to truly test out your screen and see what it is truly capable of, you should probably pick up an X-Rite ColorMunki. ColorMunki is a true spectrophotometer, which is a scientific-grade high precision device that will perform a much more realistic and accurate calibration of your screen, and should theoretically work for any gamut.

That is interesting, I thought both the colormunki and spyder were colorimeters as I had read of issues with x-rite colored filters stability over time. Nevertheless, I went with datacolor because my reseller told me they were informed by Pantone that they would discontinue the x-rite series so I was concerned with support down the line. I have not verified the claim however...

Edit: And I mostly work sRGB anyways...
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 07:19:30 PM by IMG_0001 »
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jrista

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2014, 07:41:43 PM »
Thanks, the appearance was quite good out of the box, but still better once calibrated.

Mainly, the thing is that based on the machine price and reviews on the web, I was not expecting these kind of results. Not only the Spyder4Elite gives 97% sRGB, but the deltaEs are all under 5, and mostly under 3 which seems pretty good to me.

I just wanted a way to crosscheck these results without getting another screen calibrator. I had thought that there might have been images meant to show/emphasize the gamut limits of a screen or something like that.

Owning a DataColor Spyder myself (I actually bought the full DataColor suite during the Spyder3 days), I would point out that I do not believe DataColor's devices, including the Spyder4, are actually capable of calibrating displays to anything other than sRGB. Their devices are colorimeters, rather than spectrophotometers, and as such they are not as accurate and seem to be tuned to calibrating your screen relative to the sRGB gamut rather than the AdobeRGB gamut. DataColor has claimed there are software features that can be used to calibrate wide-gamut displays, however even with the latest software updates and 'elite' software, I have never been able to get anything other than sRGB calibration out of my Spyder devices for all of my screens.

If you want to truly test out your screen and see what it is truly capable of, you should probably pick up an X-Rite ColorMunki. ColorMunki is a true spectrophotometer, which is a scientific-grade high precision device that will perform a much more realistic and accurate calibration of your screen, and should theoretically work for any gamut.

That is interesting, I thought both the colormunki and spyder were colorimeters as I had read of issues with x-rite colored filters stability over time. Nevertheless, I went with datacolor because my reseller told me they were informed by Pantone that they would discontinue the x-rite series so I was concerned with support down the line. I have not verified the claim however...

Edit: And I mostly work sRGB anyways...

The color filters of any colorimeter or spectrophotometer will fade over time. That isn't really limited to one brand or another or even one model or another. As far as I know, though, X-Rite's devices are all spectrophotometers:

Quote
Product Details
COLORMUNKI DEVICE
All-in-One spectrophotometer puts the world of spectral color at your fingertips – easily capture colors and calibrate all you monitors, printers and projectors. A white calibration tile is integrated, so there’s nothing to lose or match up to your device. Also includes a protective bag which doubles as an integrated monitor holder and it all fits in the palm of your hand. This truly is your do everything color solution!

Also, to be quite frank, it sounds like your reseller has brand affinity. ColorMunki is pretty much the top color calibration device on the market. It is highly doubtful that it would be discontinued. X-Rite and Pantone certainly collaborated on it, and it covers the pantone solid color set, which is actually very ideal. Just because ColorMunki competes with Pantone Huey, though, doesn't mean that X-Rite will be discontinuing it. I don't think Pantone has any right to discontinue it, it isn't their product. Pantone collaborates with everyone in the color market...its what they do, basically.

Regarding DataColor...I liked my Spyder3 stuff when I first got it. It did it's job, calibrated my devices quickly, and produced an ideal sRGB gamut. After having used it for about four years now, though, I have come to realize that it is a very inconsistent system. I can calibrate my screen repeatedly in the exact same conditions, and every single time DataColor's system will produce slightly different results. White point shifts, shadow tonality will crush, then open up again, colors, particularly greens and reds, will change slightly from calibration to calibration. Even calibrating my screen brightness results in shifts...I use 120mcd brightness, however from one calibration to the next, the device might read that as 90mcd, and other times it might read that as 180mcd.

Very, very inconsistent system.

I purchased the Spyder4 device from the local Micro Center and gave it a try. Same basic issues. They are a little less extreme now, but fundamentally the same basic issues exist. I don't really have anything against DataColor, and I actually like their multi-device normalization features (where you can calibrate multiple screens on separate computers and normalize their calibration to produce very similar results). But as I've become more critical in my work, and rely more heavily on having a color-correct workflow...I've simply come to realize that DataColor's devices really aren't ideal.

ColorMunki Design is a more consistent, accurate device, and the ColorMunki Design is very nice in that one single device can calibrate everything (DataColor has different devices for calibrating screen and printer.) Also, as far as I can tell, ColorMunki always calibrates my screen to a gamut wider than sRGB (but still not AdobeRGB, however I don't think my CinemaDisplay 30" screen can achieve full AdobeRGB gamut anyway.) I returned the ColorMunki device I had because an X-Rite i1Display device actually comes with the NEC PA302W-BK-SV high end desktop display which has a 14-bit hardware LUT (SpectraView II is really just a relabeled i1Display, which is X-Rites higher end display calibration tool), and the reviews of this display indicate the calibrations are simply exquisite and highly accurate.

Seeing as I plan to buy that NEC monitor, and I don't generally create printer calibrations anymore, and the $500 ColorMunki Design was just a bit expensive for me at the time. If you aren't intending to spend $1200 on a new monitor, though, the ColorMunki is pretty much the most accurate calibration device around. If you don't want to spend $500, then an i1Display Pro is probably sufficient (however, to be quite honest, I am not sure if that is a spectro or a colorimeter...either way, the reviews indicate it does an exquisite job.)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 12:12:46 AM by jrista »

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2014, 07:41:43 PM »

IMG_0001

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2014, 09:39:39 PM »
Thanks Jrista, that is all quite intersting. To be honest, I've just recently came in to color calibrated workflow and still have to grasp all aspects of it. Until now, I'm pretty happy with my spyder4 and I'm aware that is not the most high end device, but I'm sure it is not thse weakest link in my gear and workflow either.

Just as an aside, I don't think the store had a brand affinity since the shop that told me about the X-rite being discontinued actually only held this brand in stock and referred me to a competitor so I could get a Datacolor product.
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privatebydesign

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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2014, 09:59:06 PM »
The X-Rite ColorMunki Display is a colorimeter.

Calibration is yet another area where some people seem to obsess, it is important to remain cognoscent of the fact that a profile, in and of itself, only has any relevance or use when compared to something else, "accurate" colour is a complete red herring and calibrating a monitor without regard to final output, be it an uncalibrated web users screen, a high end printer, or the local Costco, or where that print is then hung, what viewing conditions that web user has etc, really make single screen profiling a little pointless. Certainly nothing to obsess about.

A robust colour workflow is a wonderful thing but is way more than a decent monitor and profile, it starts at capture with custom camera profiles and ends with the final viewers viewing conditions.
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Re: Screen gamut
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2014, 09:59:06 PM »