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Author Topic: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong  (Read 19834 times)

msm

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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2014, 02:24:12 PM »
...
It is without a doubt the best camera available for my dear L-lenses..
You might be interested in what Roger Cicala (owner of Lensrentals) has to say:

Quote from: Roger Cicala
When a single camera-lens interface has enough variability to sometimes be visible, adding another large piece of metal with another mount interface seems a recipe for problems….

Putting a great lens on your camera via an adapter might still be better than an average native-mount lens. On the other hand, that great lens certainly wouldn’t be as good as it would be on its native-mount camera.

He also says this in a later article:

"An adapter that really messes up laboratory testing results generally has very little to no effect on actual pictures."

Having tested A7R on most of my Canon lenses I can't really see much of these alleged problems in my actual pictures. All lenses I have tested provide a lot more detail and resolution than on my Canon cameras. I would be more worried about AF and IS working poorly on some lenses through the adapter.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 02:26:17 PM by msm »

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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2014, 02:24:12 PM »

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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2014, 02:25:56 PM »
In regard to...
"At the risk of stating the obvious, doesn't it rather depend what you intend doing with the combination? I wouldn't want to try shooting birds handheld with a tiny body on a big lens."
...

Great discussion. My personal opinion is that the slr market is severely hindered by our pre-conceived notion that a camera should look like an slr. In the future, I'd anticipate this model to be broken.

Do you remember when digital cameras first hit the market?  Manufacturers tried to differentiate digital cameras by the shape.   After all, digital cameras were new technology and should have a distinctive design so that others knew that your camera was digital and you were cool! 
When they started producing digital cameras that looked like a traditional  camera, and added that REAR LCD for instant gratification,  sales really took off.  It didn't take long for everyone to change their designs to look like a conventional film camera and have a rear LCD.
 
Maybe its time for a innovative shape, but who is going to bet their company on it?  Of course, there are some for whom a camera body might be a fashion statement, but its questionable as to the size of that market.
 
 
Canon
 
 
 
 
Apple was one of the early ones!

 
Ricoh
 

 
Kodak
 

 
 

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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2014, 03:00:48 PM »
...Sometimes Nikon and Canon remind me of that 50-year-old guy with a pony-tail and an earring cruising the bars trying to pick up 21-year-olds. ......
Here, let me offer a variation on that theme, a 50 year old that rides a fixie, may fail, and willingly, with the 21 year olds, succeeds just fine with 30 year olds.

Kai's article, however, reads like a guy just returned from a costume party and failed.
He seems to be carrying a grudge over Nikon's Pure Photography videos, I cannot figure why. Nikon's model is out in wild fields somewhere (English Moors?), contemplating his next shot. Kai routinely does the same in his videos except in the wilds of Hong Kong, Amsterdam or wherever. I think he's just jealous of Nikon's model.
The Df is cool, a D610 with a D4 sensor in a retro looking package for half the price of a D4. The next version will look better, the first isn't bad for a first retro effort.

If the Df being cool needs explaining, you wouldn't understand.

I think Kai is being the fuddy duddy in this article.
---
Canon and Nikon DSLRs are fine machines, both up the state of the art incrementally with each new model.
I heartily encourage those that are dissatisfied with the current rate of improvement to the state of the art to fully develop, manufacture and market a better product. While you are at it, it better be 100% PERFECT for EVERYONE at all times under all conditions.
---
I do think it would be cool if Canon and Nikon were to develop and market competing mirrorless cameras that integrated a fully functional smart phone.
---
I do like Kai, generally, and enjoy watching most of his videos.
I'm especially fond of this one...........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWgnkIq6bds
 

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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2014, 04:25:47 PM »
in today's market things are moving very fast...

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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2014, 04:27:32 PM »
Nikon's model is out in wild fields somewhere (English Moors?), contemplating his next shot.

Sitting by a campfire in the middle of a field on a pitch black night. I'd love to see the card from his pure photography session. :)
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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2014, 02:56:36 AM »
honestly i don´t know why i should read or listen to that guy.
he is as clueless about photography as the next guy on the street.

his "reviews" are useless... except for those who like the three stooges movies too.

i don´t get why some watch his videos.
when you have seen one you have seen all.
That's ironic ... coz the gist of your post is: "his reviews are useless" and call everyone who watches his reviews as people "who like the three stooges movies" ... now, that you got your feelings off your chest with the above comments, could you please care to contribute something of substance as to what you think about the innovative mirrorless cameras vs the entry level dslrs. Thanks
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 06:54:11 AM by Rienzphotoz »
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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2014, 03:02:15 AM »
In regard to...
"At the risk of stating the obvious, doesn't it rather depend what you intend doing with the combination? I wouldn't want to try shooting birds handheld with a tiny body on a big lens."
...

Great discussion. My personal opinion is that the slr market is severely hindered by our pre-conceived notion that a camera should look like an slr. In the future, I'd anticipate this model to be broken.

Do you remember when digital cameras first hit the market?  Manufacturers tried to differentiate digital cameras by the shape.   After all, digital cameras were new technology and should have a distinctive design so that others knew that your camera was digital and you were cool! 
When they started producing digital cameras that looked like a traditional  camera, and added that REAR LCD for instant gratification,  sales really took off.  It didn't take long for everyone to change their designs to look like a conventional film camera and have a rear LCD.
 
Maybe its time for a innovative shape, but who is going to bet their company on it?  Of course, there are some for whom a camera body might be a fashion statement, but its questionable as to the size of that market.
 
 
Canon
 
 
 
 
Apple was one of the early ones!

 
Ricoh
 

 
Kodak
 

Good point
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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2014, 03:02:15 AM »

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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2014, 06:21:09 AM »
Canon and Nikon DSLRs are fine machines, both up the state of the art incrementally with each new model.
I heartily encourage those that are dissatisfied with the current rate of improvement to the state of the art to fully develop, manufacture and market a better product.

Why, when Fujifilm, Panasonic, Olympus, Sony and even Samsung are doing such a great job.

While you are at it, it better be 100% PERFECT for EVERYONE at all times under all conditions.

Why this requirement, when both Canon and Nikon aren't.
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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2014, 08:06:39 AM »
Canon and Nikon DSLRs are fine machines, both up the state of the art incrementally with each new model.
I heartily encourage those that are dissatisfied with the current rate of improvement to the state of the art to fully develop, manufacture and market a better product.

Why, when Fujifilm, Panasonic, Olympus, Sony and even Samsung are doing such a great job.

While you are at it, it better be 100% PERFECT for EVERYONE at all times under all conditions.

Why this requirement, when both Canon and Nikon aren't.
That requirement is for whiners that complain about the current state of affairs. As I posted, I wholeheartedly encourage such whiners to do a better job, their success, or lack of, can then be evaluated according to the volume, or lack of volume, of whining complaints regarding features, options, capabilities, ergonomics, image quality, DR, burst rate etc..
In other words, you want to First World Whine and Complain? Fine,go ahead, then put your money where your mouth is. Otherwise, STFU and learn to appreciate just how marvelous and capable modern cameras are.
 
To paraphrase Robert Capa who said;
"If your photographs aren't good enough, you're not close enough."
tolusina says;
If your camera is not good enough for you, your wallet isn't empty enough, you need more gear.
---
As I recall, back in the days of film and manual focus regarding top line cameras, Nikon was pretty much tops, Canon a close second, Pentax a distant third.
Somewhere along the line to the present, Canon and Nikon switched positions, Pentax lost the way.
There is enough distinct and superior about Canon's products that the marketplace, that'd be us, has put Canon on top, a position they've earned.
Even Scott Kelby has finally figured it out.
Nikon has some glass, yes.
But Nikon offshores a lot of its manufacturing, really just builds bodies and has some involvement in EXPEED development, then stuffs a Sony sensor inside and calls it good enough.
I just looked for the 'Made in' labels on my Nikon and Canon gear, here's what I found;
Two Nikon bodies and one lens Made in Thailand, one lens from China, one Speedlight made in Japan. A Nikon mount Tamron lens Made in Japan.
One Canon body, two (identical) Speedlights, one lens, one flash remote all made in Japan, pancake 40 made in Malaysia.
Canon proudly offers a fairly complete, comprehensive and very competent system, they build where they live (mostly~).

You mention Fujifilm, Panasonic, Olympus, Sony and even Samsung, you forgot Pentax.
Seriously? None of them even begin to approach the market space that is Canon's, not even close. They are much more mass market devices, decidedly down market.
Whatever FF offerings there may be that attempt, or appear to attempt, entering the Canon defined market space, I've no interest in cobbling together those with various aftermarket goodies, then show up with a cobbled set to a high dollar wedding assignment, corporate client or studio portrait shoot.
 
Reminds me of the day I was at some scenic spot with my 6D, guy shooting with his phone tells me he can do anything with his phone that I can do with my 6D. Oh please, just stop. Same guy probably believes Earth is only 4K years old, just ignorant.
 
To answer Kai's question, remember? The topic of this thread?
Canon is very much on top of their game, at a peak of their prime. It's Canon's game. They've established the rules of the game and excel, Nikon puppies along behind.
 
Fujifilm, Panasonic, Olympus, Sony and even Samsung, Mark Zuckerberg loves ya!
 
---
All that ^^ said, I'd still like to see Canon and Nikon come out with cameras that incorporate a fully integrated smart phone, I think there's a Samsung in that direction, an Android Galaxy Camera, doesn't look to be a phone though, not all that camera wise either.
 

 

 
 
.
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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2014, 09:27:00 AM »
How about we take the sensor from the Sony A7R and slap it into an SLR body?

At the end of the day, its all about ending up with the best picture possible but many of us are so comfortable with the SLR form factor that any other form, makes us uncomfortable. We also "look" less than professional if we show up with a "smallish" camera that looks like the same camera everyone else has  :)
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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2014, 09:28:10 AM »
The insistence by Canon to slap IS into basically any new lens is proof of this assumption. This also means that they have been spending a lot of dinero on perfecting this technology, instead of simply binning it in favour of new ideas.

Does the latest and best mirrorless from Sony, the 36 MP A7R, come with in-body stabilisation? NO

Does the upcoming Sony 70-200 f/4 lens feature OSS? YES

So much for new ideas from Sony...

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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2014, 10:00:37 AM »
tolusina says;
If your camera is not good enough for you, your wallet isn't empty enough, you need more gear.

No, I want a camera that isn't still stuck in the 1990's.

As I recall, back in the days of film and manual focus regarding top line cameras, Nikon was pretty much tops, Canon a close second, Pentax a distant third.

Back when I started with photography, Canon was non-existent. It was all Asahi and Nikon. Oh, and Minolta.

Even Scott Kelby has finally figured it out.

Well, it sure took him long enough. Guess I'm smarter than him, because I switched to Canon nearly twenty years ago.

You mention Fujifilm, Panasonic, Olympus, Sony and even Samsung, you forgot Pentax.

No, I didn't. Pentax, just like Nikon and Canon, is still dicking around with the basic SLR design from the 1960's.

None of them even begin to approach the market space that is Canon's, not even close.

A study of biological mass extinctions shows that the larger animals are the ones who croak, not the little fellows. IMO, Canon and Nikon have reached the stage where they are so afraid of failure that they will actually fail due to inaction. Pentax is just stuck in tradition. (All are classic examples of the Peter Principle.)

Reminds me of the day I was at some scenic spot with my 6D, guy shooting with his phone tells me he can do anything with his phone that I can do with my 6D. Oh please, just stop.

Well, I know a few professional photographers with impressive cameras and lenses, who should rather start selling shoes or something.
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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2014, 10:09:47 AM »
The insistence by Canon to slap IS into basically any new lens is proof of this assumption. This also means that they have been spending a lot of dinero on perfecting this technology, instead of simply binning it in favour of new ideas.

Does the latest and best mirrorless from Sony, the 36 MP A7R, come with in-body stabilisation? NO

Does the upcoming Sony 70-200 f/4 lens feature OSS? YES

So much for new ideas from Sony...

With sensors doing ISO12800 easily and still increasing, why do we need IS in sub-100mm lenses? Just chase up the sensitivity. Huh?

As for Sony and "in-body stabilisation" ... well, maybe they didn't include it to keep the cost down. But, interestingly, Panasonic seems to be switching to an "in-body" system, as it works much better for video.
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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2014, 10:09:47 AM »

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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2014, 10:17:10 AM »
Pentax, just like Nikon and Canon, is still dicking around with the basic SLR design from the 1960's.

None of them even begin to approach the market space that is Canon's, not even close.

A study of biological mass extinctions shows that the larger animals are the ones who croak, <b>not the little fellows</b>. IMO, Canon and Nikon have reached the stage where they are so afraid of failure that they will actually fail due to inaction. Pentax is just stuck in tradition. (All are classic examples of the Peter Principle.)

Reminds me of the day I was at some scenic spot with my 6D, guy shooting with his phone tells me he can do anything with his phone that I can do with my 6D. Oh please, just stop.

Well, I know a few professional photographers with impressive cameras and lenses, who should rather start selling shoes or something.

With all due respect (uh oh), a couple of things. Firstly, I've heard a fair bit of 'DSLRs are an old/dead/dead end/outdated design' talk. And no doubt for some purposes, they are inappropriate. But I've yet to see a better system proposed for some things (my pet area being long focal length wildlife photography). And while I suspect inertia has played a role in the relatively static nature of camera design recently, I also believe there must be good design reasons why DSLRs are still popular, with both designers and consumers. I look forward to seeing new designs if they are better, but I won't hold my breath.

And as for the mass extinction metaphor, oh dear. What relevance does the size vs survivability of species have to do with something entirely different, companies? I think this is a rather too laboured analogy to say anything. In any case, huge numbers of smaller organisms (wherever your size cutoff happens to be) died out in mass extinctions (and do so in regular extinctions). Most crinoids and brachiopods, and all trilobites and ammonites (some of which were large, but many of which were small) have gone extinct. In the human corporate world, it doesn't seem to me that smaller companies do better than large ones, either in terms of providing better products or services (both types do both), or surviving recessions (= mass extinctions?).
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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2014, 10:19:21 AM »
…....No, I want a camera that isn't still stuck in the 1990's........

….... Pentax, just like Nikon and Canon, is still dicking around with the basic SLR design from the 1960's.....

 
Well, there you go then, sounds like you are volunteering, you're it. You make it, whatever it is you want.
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Re: Canon and Nikon - Past Their Prime? by Kai Wong
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2014, 10:19:21 AM »