September 20, 2014, 08:23:01 AM

Author Topic: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III  (Read 13663 times)

scyrene

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2014, 05:52:42 PM »
Oops, sorry, I misread. I think you'd need to stop down a lot, as the 2x extender will exaggerate the lens's flaws, and ultrawide aperture lenses (even this one) have a lot of optical problems wide open. I've combined the extender with extension tubes and the 24-105mm f/4L IS lens and it worked a bit like I'd imagine the 180L does - near-macro to true macro magnification at some distance, but it wasn't the best quality and autofocus speed is abysmal.
5D mark III, 50D, 300D, EOS-M; Samyang 14mm f/2.8, 24-105L, MP-E, 85L II, 100L macro, 500L IS II, EF-M 18-55; 1.4xIII, 2x III + 2xII extenders; 600EX-RT; EF-M--EF adaptor.
Former lenses include: 70-200L f/4 non-IS, 200L 2.8, 400L 5.6

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #60 on: May 01, 2014, 05:52:42 PM »

arbitrage

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #61 on: May 06, 2014, 11:35:48 PM »
According to this article by Arthur Morris (http://www.birdsasart-blog.com/2013/10/19/suns-of-a-gunstacking-teleconverters-extenders-with-series-ii-super-telephoto-lenses-and-more/) if you stack with the 2xIII against the lens then you maintain AF at infinity but with the 1.4xIII against the lens you lose infinity focus.  So camera+1.4xIII+12mm+2.0xIII+lens may give you infinity focus.  I have tried this and AF is horrible but you can MF and get it to work.  I tried with the 300II which should be the ideal lens to try such a combo with.

7D\5D2\5D3\1D4\1DX\600II\300II\200-400Lw1.4TC\100-400\100L\24-105\17-40\24-70II\70-200f/2.8LISII\40pancake\Bower14f/2.8\Fuji XE-2\Fuji 18-55\Fuji23f/1.4\RRS34L\BH-55\and a bunch of other stuff.

mackguyver

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2014, 09:29:32 AM »
According to this article by Arthur Morris (http://www.birdsasart-blog.com/2013/10/19/suns-of-a-gunstacking-teleconverters-extenders-with-series-ii-super-telephoto-lenses-and-more/) if you stack with the 2xIII against the lens then you maintain AF at infinity but with the 1.4xIII against the lens you lose infinity focus.  So camera+1.4xIII+12mm+2.0xIII+lens may give you infinity focus.  I have tried this and AF is horrible but you can MF and get it to work.  I tried with the 300II which should be the ideal lens to try such a combo with.
I'm not at my house right now, but I remember that the order mattered as you say and yes, AF sucks, but the idea is to use this for rare situations where the extra distance is needed and IQ isn't the most important factor.
EOS 1D X, 5DIII, M + EF 24 f/1.4II, 50 f/1.2, 85 f/1.2II, 300 f/2.8 IS II || 16-35 f/4 IS, 24-70 f/2.8II, 70-200 f/2.8II || TS-E 17 f/4, 24 f/3.5II || M 22 f/2, M 11-22 f/4-5.6 IS | 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 IS || 1.4x III, 2x III
I only shoot at ISO 100 with perfect technique - should I get a Nikon?

hendrik-sg

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2014, 10:59:31 AM »
The best extender is a crop camera. It gives y deeper FOV (if y want), and by more pixel desity y get more magnification, without accepting IQ reduction by additional glass.

I have expierience with the old 300 2.8 IS, a 2xiii and a 50d. With this combination already its really difficult to overcome camera (and tripod and lens foot) shake, means its better than cropping only under ideal conditions.

Other than from a technical point of view, i dont see much use for a manual Focus, 840mmm f8.0 combination on a crop camera, maybe exept under very bright lighting conditions. Normally, cropping will give better Image quality.

For the frequently seen moon shots, with normal techique athmospheric limitations may be more relevant than all other sources of IQ reduction.

scyrene

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2014, 04:39:21 PM »
The best extender is a crop camera. It gives y deeper FOV (if y want), and by more pixel desity y get more magnification, without accepting IQ reduction by additional glass.

I have expierience with the old 300 2.8 IS, a 2xiii and a 50d. With this combination already its really difficult to overcome camera (and tripod and lens foot) shake, means its better than cropping only under ideal conditions.

Other than from a technical point of view, i dont see much use for a manual Focus, 840mmm f8.0 combination on a crop camera, maybe exept under very bright lighting conditions. Normally, cropping will give better Image quality.

For the frequently seen moon shots, with normal techique athmospheric limitations may be more relevant than all other sources of IQ reduction.

Well I for one don't carry a crop body and a full frame body on most of my hikes (except sometimes the EOS-M, which is hardly ergonomic with a super telephoto lens attached). I would double up (or more) the converters *only* if the target (invariably a bird) was very notable and very inaccessible (like certain sea ducks we get here, that stay hundreds of metres or more offshore). These shots will never match up in image quality to ones taken with just one extender attached (still less a bare lens) but they can be of use for recording species.

As for atmospheric conditions, once you get to those focal lengths they do make a huge difference - which is why I would recommend image stacking for static subjects. If you do that, you can indeed extract more detail the more focal length you have (with diminishing returns). My last moon shots were taken at 5600mm, and stacking revealed greater detail than 4000mm, 2800mm, etc.

One last thought - even if image quality is no better than cropping, with small/distant subjects, having them bigger in the viewfinder can help with manual focus (as autofocus is too unreliable/will not work with these setups). Also if the final images are resized to the same scale, noise will be less visible (with equal settings) in the image that was cropped less/shrunk more (although adding more extenders requires higher ISO which can introduce more noise, so they often even out). Edit: image stacking will also drastically reduce noise.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 05:44:59 AM by scyrene »
5D mark III, 50D, 300D, EOS-M; Samyang 14mm f/2.8, 24-105L, MP-E, 85L II, 100L macro, 500L IS II, EF-M 18-55; 1.4xIII, 2x III + 2xII extenders; 600EX-RT; EF-M--EF adaptor.
Former lenses include: 70-200L f/4 non-IS, 200L 2.8, 400L 5.6

TexPhoto

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2014, 06:43:06 PM »
My cheap ebay 13mm extension tube, (no idea why they went with 13) is all metal, at least in the mount and body. 

hovland

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2014, 04:18:46 AM »
According to this article by Arthur Morris (http://www.birdsasart-blog.com/2013/10/19/suns-of-a-gunstacking-teleconverters-extenders-with-series-ii-super-telephoto-lenses-and-more/) if you stack with the 2xIII against the lens then you maintain AF at infinity but with the 1.4xIII against the lens you lose infinity focus.  So camera+1.4xIII+12mm+2.0xIII+lens may give you infinity focus.  I have tried this and AF is horrible but you can MF and get it to work.  I tried with the 300II which should be the ideal lens to try such a combo with.
I'm not at my house right now, but I remember that the order mattered as you say and yes, AF sucks, but the idea is to use this for rare situations where the extra distance is needed and IQ isn't the most important factor.

If needed you also have the option of stacking a 2.0xIII with a 1,4 sigma. Af works on my 70-200, but sucks. But it will probably be better to only use the 2.0xIII and just crop. Physically it also works to stack a 2.0xIII and a 2,0 sigma and even add the sigma 1,4, without using any extension tubes.
5DIII | EF 8-15 f/4L | TS-E 24 f/3.5L II | EF 16-35 f/2.8L II |  EF 24-105 f/4L | EF 135 f/2L | EF 70-200 F2.8L II | Tamron 150-600 f/5,0-6,3 | 600EX-RT | 420EX
Not claiming to be a photographer, but it's a strong hobby of mine!

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2014, 04:18:46 AM »

R1-7D

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2014, 01:51:09 PM »
Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but since we're talking about extenders and extension tubes already I don't see the need to start another thread.


If I use a 2x extender and then a 12mm extension tube...is it possible to use the 100 f/2.8L with this combination?
Cameras: 1DX, Canon M. Lenses: Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II, Canon EF 70-200 f/2.8L IS II,  Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro, Canon EF 2X III, Tokina SD 16-28mm f/2.8 FX, Canon M 18-55mm IS, Canon M 22mm. Flashes MT-24 580EXII

scyrene

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2014, 02:47:08 PM »
Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but since we're talking about extenders and extension tubes already I don't see the need to start another thread.


If I use a 2x extender and then a 12mm extension tube...is it possible to use the 100 f/2.8L with this combination?

Yeah, I think I've done that. The 12mm extension tube should make the 2x extender fit any lens (although I'd be careful with ones like the 85L which has a very exposed rear element). With a macro lens like the 100L you'll get a pretty good setup for smaller insect subjects, although I'd stop down and you'll lose infinity focus as always with the extension tubes.
5D mark III, 50D, 300D, EOS-M; Samyang 14mm f/2.8, 24-105L, MP-E, 85L II, 100L macro, 500L IS II, EF-M 18-55; 1.4xIII, 2x III + 2xII extenders; 600EX-RT; EF-M--EF adaptor.
Former lenses include: 70-200L f/4 non-IS, 200L 2.8, 400L 5.6

R1-7D

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2014, 03:55:20 PM »
Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but since we're talking about extenders and extension tubes already I don't see the need to start another thread.


If I use a 2x extender and then a 12mm extension tube...is it possible to use the 100 f/2.8L with this combination?

Yeah, I think I've done that. The 12mm extension tube should make the 2x extender fit any lens (although I'd be careful with ones like the 85L which has a very exposed rear element). With a macro lens like the 100L you'll get a pretty good setup for smaller insect subjects, although I'd stop down and you'll lose infinity focus as always with the extension tubes.

Thanks! I just tried it... Man, unless the camera is on a tripod it's next to impossible to hold it steady. Sharpness really suffers, even when stopped down to f/8.

The lens retained it's f/2.8 aperture, however, which was cool!


Thanks again for the information.
Cameras: 1DX, Canon M. Lenses: Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II, Canon EF 70-200 f/2.8L IS II,  Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro, Canon EF 2X III, Tokina SD 16-28mm f/2.8 FX, Canon M 18-55mm IS, Canon M 22mm. Flashes MT-24 580EXII

mackguyver

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2014, 04:20:02 PM »
R1-7D, now you know how I feel when I put the 2x on my 180mm macro, which makes it a 360mm (non-IS) lens!  I might have to give the double-extender a shot on it as it's also a crazy sharp lens and getting a 504mm 2.8x macro lens sounds pretty cool, other than the DOF and light requirements...
EOS 1D X, 5DIII, M + EF 24 f/1.4II, 50 f/1.2, 85 f/1.2II, 300 f/2.8 IS II || 16-35 f/4 IS, 24-70 f/2.8II, 70-200 f/2.8II || TS-E 17 f/4, 24 f/3.5II || M 22 f/2, M 11-22 f/4-5.6 IS | 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 IS || 1.4x III, 2x III
I only shoot at ISO 100 with perfect technique - should I get a Nikon?

scyrene

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2014, 05:58:05 PM »
Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but since we're talking about extenders and extension tubes already I don't see the need to start another thread.


If I use a 2x extender and then a 12mm extension tube...is it possible to use the 100 f/2.8L with this combination?

Yeah, I think I've done that. The 12mm extension tube should make the 2x extender fit any lens (although I'd be careful with ones like the 85L which has a very exposed rear element). With a macro lens like the 100L you'll get a pretty good setup for smaller insect subjects, although I'd stop down and you'll lose infinity focus as always with the extension tubes.

Thanks! I just tried it... Man, unless the camera is on a tripod it's next to impossible to hold it steady. Sharpness really suffers, even when stopped down to f/8.

The lens retained it's f/2.8 aperture, however, which was cool!


Thanks again for the information.

Well remember, the reported aperture won't take account of the extender, since the camera body won't know it's there. So "f/2.8" is actually f/5.6. Also, at that magnification (up to 2x), use of a flash is almost essential. Add a flash, set it to the sync speed (e.g. 1/200), and you can hand hold easily. I was hand holding to 10x magnification today, albeit half resting on a surface (MP-E at max + 2x).
5D mark III, 50D, 300D, EOS-M; Samyang 14mm f/2.8, 24-105L, MP-E, 85L II, 100L macro, 500L IS II, EF-M 18-55; 1.4xIII, 2x III + 2xII extenders; 600EX-RT; EF-M--EF adaptor.
Former lenses include: 70-200L f/4 non-IS, 200L 2.8, 400L 5.6

R1-7D

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2014, 12:45:02 AM »
Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but since we're talking about extenders and extension tubes already I don't see the need to start another thread.


If I use a 2x extender and then a 12mm extension tube...is it possible to use the 100 f/2.8L with this combination?

Yeah, I think I've done that. The 12mm extension tube should make the 2x extender fit any lens (although I'd be careful with ones like the 85L which has a very exposed rear element). With a macro lens like the 100L you'll get a pretty good setup for smaller insect subjects, although I'd stop down and you'll lose infinity focus as always with the extension tubes.

Thanks! I just tried it... Man, unless the camera is on a tripod it's next to impossible to hold it steady. Sharpness really suffers, even when stopped down to f/8.

The lens retained it's f/2.8 aperture, however, which was cool!


Thanks again for the information.

Well remember, the reported aperture won't take account of the extender, since the camera body won't know it's there. So "f/2.8" is actually f/5.6. Also, at that magnification (up to 2x), use of a flash is almost essential. Add a flash, set it to the sync speed (e.g. 1/200), and you can hand hold easily. I was hand holding to 10x magnification today, albeit half resting on a surface (MP-E at max + 2x).


Interesting about the aperture. I was using a flash -- 580 EX II -- at exactly 1/200. Still, at extreme close-ups of subjects...I did not have much luck keeping it steady.

I also found manual focusing was an absolute must. Normally with Macro I like to manual focus anyways, but I sometimes use autofocus to get an approximate...but this lens combo did not want to focus at all. It just kept hunting and hunting.

Anyways, it's cool that this can be done. Gotta love tinkering with all the equipment. Thanks for the help.
Cameras: 1DX, Canon M. Lenses: Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II, Canon EF 70-200 f/2.8L IS II,  Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro, Canon EF 2X III, Tokina SD 16-28mm f/2.8 FX, Canon M 18-55mm IS, Canon M 22mm. Flashes MT-24 580EXII

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2014, 12:45:02 AM »

scyrene

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2014, 11:01:16 AM »
Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but since we're talking about extenders and extension tubes already I don't see the need to start another thread.


If I use a 2x extender and then a 12mm extension tube...is it possible to use the 100 f/2.8L with this combination?

Yeah, I think I've done that. The 12mm extension tube should make the 2x extender fit any lens (although I'd be careful with ones like the 85L which has a very exposed rear element). With a macro lens like the 100L you'll get a pretty good setup for smaller insect subjects, although I'd stop down and you'll lose infinity focus as always with the extension tubes.

Thanks! I just tried it... Man, unless the camera is on a tripod it's next to impossible to hold it steady. Sharpness really suffers, even when stopped down to f/8.

The lens retained it's f/2.8 aperture, however, which was cool!


Thanks again for the information.

Well remember, the reported aperture won't take account of the extender, since the camera body won't know it's there. So "f/2.8" is actually f/5.6. Also, at that magnification (up to 2x), use of a flash is almost essential. Add a flash, set it to the sync speed (e.g. 1/200), and you can hand hold easily. I was hand holding to 10x magnification today, albeit half resting on a surface (MP-E at max + 2x).


Interesting about the aperture. I was using a flash -- 580 EX II -- at exactly 1/200. Still, at extreme close-ups of subjects...I did not have much luck keeping it steady.

I also found manual focusing was an absolute must. Normally with Macro I like to manual focus anyways, but I sometimes use autofocus to get an approximate...but this lens combo did not want to focus at all. It just kept hunting and hunting.

Anyways, it's cool that this can be done. Gotta love tinkering with all the equipment. Thanks for the help.

I'm glad you're having fun! Macro is one of the most fun areas of photography I reckon. As for steadiness, you'll get better - it takes practice.

I don't even bother with AF on that lens bare if I'm going to 1x magnification, let alone 2x - it just can't keep up with tiny movements of you or the subject, even with its IS function. With the flash, you might want to boost the power (manually dialling it a stop or two higher) as you lose a lot of light getting very close to subjects. Or use the flash off-camera if you can. If it has high-speed sync (I've only used the 600EX-RT which does), you could try going to a faster shutter speed. Lots of variables to play around with, I'm sure you'll find something that works :)
5D mark III, 50D, 300D, EOS-M; Samyang 14mm f/2.8, 24-105L, MP-E, 85L II, 100L macro, 500L IS II, EF-M 18-55; 1.4xIII, 2x III + 2xII extenders; 600EX-RT; EF-M--EF adaptor.
Former lenses include: 70-200L f/4 non-IS, 200L 2.8, 400L 5.6

weilin

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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2014, 02:45:11 AM »
Since we're messing around with stacking teleconverters... why limit it to EF lenses, what about... a telescope...

The images attached are shot with a sky-watcher ProED 120mm Doublet APO Refractor + 0.85x reducer/field flattener. It's natively 900mm but with the reducer it's 765mm. The Camera is EOS 5D3 at ISO 800.

Image 1: ProED + reducer (765mm)
Image 2: ProED + reducer + 1.4x tele (1071mm)
Image 3: ProED + reducer + 2.0x tele (1530mm)
Image 4: ProED + reducer + 1.4x tele + 12mm extension + 2.0x tele (2142mm)

Any thoughts on which is the sharpest?




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Re: Stacked TCs - 1.4x III + 12mm Extension Tube + 2x III
« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2014, 02:45:11 AM »