October 31, 2014, 06:08:02 AM

Author Topic: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]  (Read 7368 times)

HurtinMinorKey

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2014, 12:23:33 PM »
I'm having a hard time believing this. It seems like Canon would introduce this on their C series of cinema cameras before their regular DSLR line. Same being true with the higher resolution (2.5K) video.

Remember, the c300 uses an 8MP sensor and intelligently down-samples to 1080 in camera. So if we are only getting 2.5K reads off a sensor, then it's not like this "new camera" would necessarily be using as much or more image data. 
« Last Edit: January 27, 2014, 02:03:54 PM by HurtinMinorKey »

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2014, 12:23:33 PM »

AvTvM

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2014, 12:44:41 PM »
don't care for video, don't need or want "global shutter" in a DSLR.

BUT ...
I absolutely do want a fully electonic (global) shutter without any moving mechanical parts (curtains) ... in a totally silent and absolutely vibration-free mirrorless cameras. "Solid State Camera" ... all the way!

HurtinMinorKey

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2014, 01:03:48 PM »
don't care for video, don't need or want "global shutter" in a DSLR.

You still get rolling shutter artifacts (skew) when taking pictures of fast moving objects.

roxics

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2014, 01:51:50 PM »

Remember, the c300 uses an 8K sensor and intelligently down-samples to 1080 in camera. So if we are only getting 2.5K reads off a sensor, then it's not like this "new camera" would necessarily be using as much or more image data.

Actually it's a 4K sensor downsampled in camera to 1080p. But the point remains that the final image is 1080p. Whereas this headline seems to indicate that the new camera will have a final 2.5K output image.
Granted the 1DC does do 4K output. But unless the rest of the C series gets a 4K update I can't foresee Canon giving a higher output resolution to their regular DSLR line first.

But I'm willing to admit I could be totally wrong. There is more to a good image than just resolution. The C series has more going on than just downsampling. 


9VIII

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2014, 01:54:33 PM »
don't care for video, don't need or want "global shutter" in a DSLR.

You still get rolling shutter artifacts (skew) when taking pictures of fast moving objects.

That was my understanding as well, that photographing something like a helicopter would give warped blades unless the camera had a global shutter.
I see this as being just as good for stills as video.

Hopefully this is talking about the 7D replacement, I would love to have 2560x1440 video capability.
-100% RAW-

HurtinMinorKey

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2014, 02:04:55 PM »

Remember, the c300 uses an 8K sensor and intelligently down-samples to 1080 in camera. So if we are only getting 2.5K reads off a sensor, then it's not like this "new camera" would necessarily be using as much or more image data.

Actually it's a 4K sensor downsampled in camera to 1080p.

I think i've made this mistake 100 times now.  ;D You are correct, it's 8MP or 4K.

leethecam

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2014, 02:17:04 PM »
Nice... but the reality is that most films shot on digital don't have the benefit of global shutter.  The Sony D65 has no issues due to it being a CCD camera, and lately RED have introduced an option to combat the effects, but film favourites like the ARRI Alexa has no global shutter.

The reality is that you need to be careful with pans and moves, but shooting at 24 / 25p requires that anyway.

It's great to lose unwanted artifacts, but think about it... when was the last time in the last 2/3 years you sat through a film cursing the rolling shutter...?

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2014, 02:17:04 PM »

meauounji

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2014, 02:27:17 PM »
don't care for video, don't need or want "global shutter" in a DSLR.

You still get rolling shutter artifacts (skew) when taking pictures of fast moving objects.

Yes. It matters for still... a lot less, because the effect is less obvious in stills, but it does.

Personally, I don't believe the rumor. Canon hasn't "innovated" in the DSLR video space for a while. They've only ever made their video less crappy faster than other manufacturers over time. And I say this as a video guy who currently shoots with a 5D3, and also shot with a 7D and 5D2 when they were the bee's knees in video.

A brief timeline of video on Canon DSLRs:

The 5D2 gave us full frame video for the first time, but no manual audio, no manual exposure, no 24p and 30p wasn't even 29.97 like it should be. It suffered severely from moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec.

The 7D gave us 24p and manual exposure out of the box.  It still suffered severely from Moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec.

The 5D2 Eventually got manual exposure, 24p and manual audio, but still suffered from severe moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec. Of course, nothing below the 7D was any better. Eventually, one of the rebels got an articulating screen, which is kind of nice.

Mind you, all these "problems" weren't problems on non-DSLR video cameras, so we're just bringing the cameras back toward "normal" not "good".

Then came the 5D3, which finally got rid of moire, at the cost of overall sharpness (again, I speak from personal experience) and slightly less bad (but still bad) rolling shutter and a slightly less bad (but still bad) recording codec. Worst, 5D3 has hugely ugly fixed pattern noises that were NOT present in either the 5D2 or 7D... progress. Oh, I guess I should give Canon some kudos for enabling clean HDMI out, but they weren't even close to first there, so to say they "innovated" that feature is stretching it a lot.

Around the same time, the 1DC was also announced. Its "innovation" being a 1DX with slightly beefier processors that can shoot cropped 8 megapixel (that's what 4K translates to) JPEGS at 24 frames a second. You could've predicted what the 1DC was going to be from the specs in the "development announcement" just by crunching the pixels processed per second number in the 1DX. I did, and the 1DC was an absolutely no-surprise camera for me.

That's it. That's all the "Innovation" they gave us so far, concerning DSLR video.

Not that the other manufacturers are doing much better, but to believe that all of a sudden, Canon is going to break new ground with not one but TWO features, one of which has only ever been seen in ONE digital cinema camera from a competitor? I don't think so.  (By the way, that would be global shutter on CMOS sensor in Sony's F55, and I believe the "cost" of the technology was a half stop less sensitivity)

Would I dearly love Canon to do global shutter and 2.5k in a 1DX-2, 1DC-2, or even a 7D-2? Hell yes. If it comes with a good codec (and I mean 8-bit 4:2:2 in-camera minimum, 10-bit preferred) I would pay 10k for it in a heart beat. The amount of problems global shutter, better codec, and a sensible amount of resolution increase would MORE than justify the cost.



meauounji

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2014, 02:33:00 PM »
Nice... but the reality is that most films shot on digital don't have the benefit of global shutter.  The Sony D65 has no issues due to it being a CCD camera, and lately RED have introduced an option to combat the effects, but film favourites like the ARRI Alexa has no global shutter.

The reality is that you need to be careful with pans and moves, but shooting at 24 / 25p requires that anyway.

It's great to lose unwanted artifacts, but think about it... when was the last time in the last 2/3 years you sat through a film cursing the rolling shutter...?

Agree with most of what you said, except I'd say we tend not to notice rolling shutter in films at least partly because Alexa, RED, and other digital cinema cameras' rolling shutter artifact is less pronounced than in Canon DSLRs. I notice rolling shutter all the time when feature films insert GoPro or DSLR shots in the middle of a sequence.

Also, no to nit-pick, but Sony F65 actually has a CMOS sensor. It sometimes doesn't have rolling shutter because of an optional mechanical shutter system to combat the effect.

roxics

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2014, 03:27:42 PM »

Also, no to nit-pick, but Sony F65 actually has a CMOS sensor. It sometimes doesn't have rolling shutter because of an optional mechanical shutter system to combat the effect.

Same being true with the Alexa Studio.

leethecam

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2014, 04:38:48 PM »

Also, no to nit-pick, but Sony F65 actually has a CMOS sensor. It sometimes doesn't have rolling shutter because of an optional mechanical shutter system to combat the effect.

Same being true with the Alexa Studio.
You're quite right... sorry...  I was thinking of the F35. 

Arri are making great strides in camera development, although their recent lovely thing (the Amira,) is a heavy lump to carry about.  I think I'd sometimes trade picture developments for some cameras we could more easily pop on our shoulders... ha.

dilbert

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2014, 05:13:38 PM »
Global Shutter already exists...

... Blackmagic's 4K camera (EF mount compatible)
... RED Motion Mount
... Sony IMX174
... Sony F55

Given the Blackmagic camera, why would you wait for Canon to release something?
Thus maybe the "sell off" is due to people moving to Blackmagic?

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2014, 06:21:02 PM »

Remember, the c300 uses an 8K sensor and intelligently down-samples to 1080 in camera. So if we are only getting 2.5K reads off a sensor, then it's not like this "new camera" would necessarily be using as much or more image data.

Actually it's a 4K sensor downsampled in camera to 1080p.

I think i've made this mistake 100 times now.  ;D You are correct, it's 8MP or 4K.

But it's bayer though so it's not really true full color per pixel 4k sensor at all.

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2014, 06:21:02 PM »

weixing

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2014, 08:59:34 PM »
Hi,
don't care for video, don't need or want "global shutter" in a DSLR.

You still get rolling shutter artifacts (skew) when taking pictures of fast moving objects.

Yes. It matters for still... a lot less, because the effect is less obvious in stills, but it does.

Personally, I don't believe the rumor. Canon hasn't "innovated" in the DSLR video space for a while. They've only ever made their video less crappy faster than other manufacturers over time. And I say this as a video guy who currently shoots with a 5D3, and also shot with a 7D and 5D2 when they were the bee's knees in video.

A brief timeline of video on Canon DSLRs:

The 5D2 gave us full frame video for the first time, but no manual audio, no manual exposure, no 24p and 30p wasn't even 29.97 like it should be. It suffered severely from moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec.

The 7D gave us 24p and manual exposure out of the box.  It still suffered severely from Moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec.

The 5D2 Eventually got manual exposure, 24p and manual audio, but still suffered from severe moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec. Of course, nothing below the 7D was any better. Eventually, one of the rebels got an articulating screen, which is kind of nice.

Mind you, all these "problems" weren't problems on non-DSLR video cameras, so we're just bringing the cameras back toward "normal" not "good".

Then came the 5D3, which finally got rid of moire, at the cost of overall sharpness (again, I speak from personal experience) and slightly less bad (but still bad) rolling shutter and a slightly less bad (but still bad) recording codec. Worst, 5D3 has hugely ugly fixed pattern noises that were NOT present in either the 5D2 or 7D... progress. Oh, I guess I should give Canon some kudos for enabling clean HDMI out, but they weren't even close to first there, so to say they "innovated" that feature is stretching it a lot.

Around the same time, the 1DC was also announced. Its "innovation" being a 1DX with slightly beefier processors that can shoot cropped 8 megapixel (that's what 4K translates to) JPEGS at 24 frames a second. You could've predicted what the 1DC was going to be from the specs in the "development announcement" just by crunching the pixels processed per second number in the 1DX. I did, and the 1DC was an absolutely no-surprise camera for me.

That's it. That's all the "Innovation" they gave us so far, concerning DSLR video.

Not that the other manufacturers are doing much better, but to believe that all of a sudden, Canon is going to break new ground with not one but TWO features, one of which has only ever been seen in ONE digital cinema camera from a competitor? I don't think so.  (By the way, that would be global shutter on CMOS sensor in Sony's F55, and I believe the "cost" of the technology was a half stop less sensitivity)

Would I dearly love Canon to do global shutter and 2.5k in a 1DX-2, 1DC-2, or even a 7D-2? Hell yes. If it comes with a good codec (and I mean 8-bit 4:2:2 in-camera minimum, 10-bit preferred) I would pay 10k for it in a heart beat. The amount of problems global shutter, better codec, and a sensible amount of resolution increase would MORE than justify the cost.
    Then why use DSLR for video?? Just use a non DSLR video camera.

    Have a nice day.

mkabi

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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2014, 10:56:18 PM »
Global Shutter already exists...

... Blackmagic's 4K camera (EF mount compatible)
... RED Motion Mount
... Sony IMX174
... Sony F55

Given the Blackmagic camera, why would you wait for Canon to release something?
Thus maybe the "sell off" is due to people moving to Blackmagic?

Hmmmm... is the blackmagic 4K available?
I always thought its in pre-order indefinitely.
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Re: Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2014, 10:56:18 PM »