September 01, 2014, 11:18:06 PM

Author Topic: Is Sony junk....  (Read 6543 times)

Mt Spokane Photography

  • Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 8481
    • View Profile
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2014, 01:13:15 PM »
"Moody's cut its credit rating on Sony to junk on Monday, saying the Japanese electronics giant had more work to do in repairing its battered balance sheet...."     Source AFP....

How will this effect, the current crop of A7's and A7R's.....

Will we see further development?, will we see price drops?

Will be interesting to see what does or doesn't develop from this...

In spite of my dislike of Sony as a company, their digital cameras are one of their bright spots right now, and are making money.
 
Where Sony is bleeding is in the Television and Phone part of the business.  Its dragging down the whole company.  That's where you may see some cuts.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2014, 01:13:15 PM »

unfocused

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2036
    • View Profile
    • Unfocused: A photo website
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2014, 01:29:38 PM »
...their digital cameras are one of their bright spots right now, and are making money.

Yes, but from the standpoint of pure self-interest I would be hesitant to invest much in a camera system that may not be supported over the long run. This is one reason to stick with Canon and Nikon. There is no guarantee of course, but I feel more comfortable with an investment in Canon lenses than I would in Sony.
pictures sharp. life not so much. www.unfocusedmg.com

Rienzphotoz

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3322
  • Peace unto all ye Canon, Nikon & Sony shooters
    • View Profile
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2014, 01:38:18 PM »
from the standpoint of pure self-interest I would be hesitant to invest much in a camera system that may not be supported over the long run. This is one reason to stick with Canon and Nikon.
I agree ... I bought the Sony a7 because even if they discontinue / drop this product line, it might fetch me a few million dollars after 30 years for its pure novelty factor  ;D ... just kidding ... I want Sony to do well in the FF mirrorless division ... but I would still only add lenses under 70mm, coz anything longer will defeat its small form factor.
Canon 5DMK3 70D | Nikon D610 | Sony a7 a6000 | RX100M3 | 16-35/2.8LII | 70-200/2.8LISII | 100/2.8LIS | 100-400LIS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.4 | 85/1.8 | 600EX-RTx2 | ST-E3-RT | 24/3.5 T-S | 10-18/4 OSS 16-50 | 24-70/4OSS | 55/1.8 | 55-210 OSS | 70-200/4 OSS | 28-300VR | HVL-F43M | GoPro Black 3+ & DJI Phantom

StudentOfLight

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 231
  • I'm on a life-long journey of self-discovery
    • View Profile
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2014, 02:34:09 PM »
from the standpoint of pure self-interest I would be hesitant to invest much in a camera system that may not be supported over the long run. This is one reason to stick with Canon and Nikon.
I agree ... I bought the Sony a7 because even if they discontinue / drop this product line, it might fetch me a few million dollars after 30 years for its pure novelty factor  ;D ... just kidding ... I want Sony to do well in the FF mirrorless division ... but I would still only add lenses under 70mm, coz anything longer will defeat its small form factor.

For me the small form factor might also be useful for attaching it to a telescope.
Fantasy Gear:
TS-E: 45mm f/2.8 L-II,  EF: 40mm f/0.8,  100mm f/1.4,  35-85mm f/1.8, 
EF with 1.4xInt: 100-300mm f/4 ,  500mm f/5.6 L

Skulker

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 371
  • PP is no vice and as shot is no virtue
    • View Profile
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2014, 03:15:59 PM »

In spite of my dislike of Sony as a company, their digital cameras are one of their bright spots right now, and are making money.
 
Where Sony is bleeding is in the Television and Phone part of the business.  Its dragging down the whole company.  That's where you may see some cuts.

Did you have a source for that info?
If you debate with a fool onlookers can find it VERY difficult to tell the difference.

Mt Spokane Photography

  • Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 8481
    • View Profile
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2014, 04:22:04 PM »

In spite of my dislike of Sony as a company, their digital cameras are one of their bright spots right now, and are making money.
 
Where Sony is bleeding is in the Television and Phone part of the business.  Its dragging down the whole company.  That's where you may see some cuts.

Did you have a source for that info?

Read the Sony financial reports over the past two years.

dilbert

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2827
    • View Profile
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2014, 05:06:15 PM »
"Moody's cut its credit rating on Sony to junk on Monday, saying the Japanese electronics giant had more work to do in repairing its battered balance sheet...."     Source AFP....

How will this effect, the current crop of A7's and A7R's.....

Will we see further development?, will we see price drops?

Will be interesting to see what does or doesn't develop from this...

Moodys has in the past downgraded the investment rating of countries to "junk" status.

People didn't leave those countries and neither did they sell themselves off in a sale.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2014, 05:06:15 PM »

eml58

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1434
  • 1Dx
    • View Profile
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2014, 05:27:10 PM »
but bashing someone for doing what they were paid to do and doing it right, does not make sense. 
 
I'm sorry if you own Sony stock.

Ok, my last comments.

I dont own Sony Stock, I think I made that perfectly obvious in my previous post, so your attempt at trivialising is un appreciated.

My comments have been centred around Moodys, but they are relevant in my opinion to S&P and Fitch as well, these are largely unregulated companies that are allowed to produce "Ratings" based on an "issuer pays" model, i.e.. If you want a good rating, or in fact if you want a bad rating (there are reasons companies want a less than stellar rating), you pay these companies for that rating and they produce it.

My point has been be careful of ratings agencies and their ratings, these guys aren't exactly on the ball or trustworthy, and the following comment I feel gives some credence to my point.

In February 2013, the U.S. government filed a civil suit against S&P in a California court, seeking damages of $5 billion for the agency's alleged role in misleading investors during the run-up to the financial crisis. If S&P is found guilty and forced to pay such a penalty, it could spell the end for the embattled ratings agency, and produce a flow on that could affect Moodys & Fitch.

Others may argue that any rating from anyone is better than no rating at all, I disagree, you say you read Sony's financial reports ?? I haven't, but I do track news, and what I read tells me 4 of 5 divisions within Sony are making Money, unfortunately for Sony that one Division in the Red is dragging the rest of the P&L down, hence my position that I currently wouldn't hold Sony Stock, but I'de like to make you feel better about all this Mt Spokane, although I don't own Sony stock, I do own Apple stock, it's down 8% as of last night, feel good about that.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

Mt Spokane Photography

  • Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 8481
    • View Profile
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2014, 08:35:00 PM »
I tried to copy just the summary from the 2013 annual report, its worse than I thought.  If it weren't for Sony Financial (Banking), they'd be out of business. 
Other than financial, none of the divisions are making much money, and the entertainment side along with mobile phones have monster sized losses.  This has been ongoing for some years now, and their response is to invest more money into Entertainment and hope things get better.
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/ar/2013/
 
In 2009, they lost 98.9 billion yen, in 2010 they lost 40.9 billion yen, in 2011, they lost 259.5 billion yen, in 2012, they lost 456.7 billion yen, and in 2013 they had a profit of 43 billion yen, so things seemed to be improving, but their home entertainment business is taking the company down.
 
Moody's has actually been cutting Sony's rating every year that they fail to live up to the promises they made to stockholders the previous year.  They work with Sony to understand what is happening and get promises.  They did not rate Sony as junk last year like Fitch's did, cutting them some slack.
 
Moody's is the messenger, Sony is not going to make a big News release telling stockholders that its a big risk, they keep promising and forecasting more than they can deliver.
 
Times are tough, and the companies that make the tough decisions pull thru.  There is also something to be said for companies that are able to remain focused on the long term, but for how many years can they keep struggling?
 
I certainly would like them to be successful, a healthy company can provide competition and invest in new technology that will benefit us all. 
 
 
 

jrista

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4123
  • POTATO
    • View Profile
    • Nature Photography
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2014, 08:37:27 PM »
I tried to copy just the summary from the 2013 annual report, its worse than I thought.  If it weren't for Sony Financial (Banking), they'd be out of business. 
Other than financial, none of the divisions are making much money, and the entertainment side along with mobile phones have monster sized losses.  This has been ongoing for some years now, and their response is to invest more money into Entertainment and hope things get better.
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/ar/2013/
 
In 2009, they lost 98.9 billion yen, in 2010 they lost 40.9 billion yen, in 2011, they lost 259.5 billion yen, in 2012, they lost 456.7 billion yen, and in 2013 they had a profit of 43 billion yen, so things seemed to be improving, but their home entertainment business is taking the company down.
 
Moody's has actually been cutting Sony's rating every year that they fail to live up to the promises they made to stockholders the previous year.  They work with Sony to understand what is happening and get promises.  They did not rate Sony as junk last year like Fitch's did, cutting them some slack.
 
Moody's is the messenger, Sony is not going to make a big News release telling stockholders that its a big risk, they keep promising and forecasting more than they can deliver.
 
Times are tough, and the companies that make the tough decisions pull thru.  There is also something to be said for companies that are able to remain focused on the long term, but for how many years can they keep struggling?
 
I certainly would like them to be successful, a healthy company can provide competition and invest in new technology that will benefit us all.

+1 Well said!
My Photography
Current Gear: Canon 5D III | Canon 7D | Canon EF 600mm f/4 L IS II | EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS | EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L | EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro | 50mm f/1.4
New Gear List: SBIG STT-8300M | Canon EF 300mm f/2.8 L II

SithTracy

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2014, 09:22:26 PM »
I've never had good luck with any Sony product I purchased.  I want to like them; my friends have good luck with them, I just don't.  Their cameras are interesting given they purchased Minolta some years back and seem to be innovating.  My Dad taught me to shoot on a Minolta XG-1 and he still has some lenses for it.  I suggested he look into a Sony full frame, but he still won't buy digital... Of course he is in his 70's now.

While the A7(r) looks promising, I am more interested in the FujiFilm X system even though is is crop.

Halfrack

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 458
    • View Profile
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2014, 10:19:20 PM »
Toss in the devaluing of the yen, and things get more interesting.  Culturally, Sony doesn't know how to play from behind.  Their MP3 play was just horrible - remember the MiniDisk, having to re-encode your mp3's to play them?  Their partnership with Erricson on phones worked until smart phones came around, then got killed.  TV's and home electronics were undercut by Korean brands that produced the same quality for a much lower price.  Toss in their forcing everything to MemoryStick failures and you see an brand ecosystem that just didn't play with others.  Blu-ray isn't the standard for movies, even today in a 'everyone has a flat panel tv' world.

The brand value went down, and the under 30 crowd doesn't remember a time when it was cool to own a Sony - walkman, tv, phone, etc.  it's kind of like Pioneer, their scope of success is just so small now, so their headcount and legacy costs are huge.
"Me owning a lens shop is kind of like having an alcoholic bar tender." - Roger Cicala

brianboru

  • Rebel SL1
  • ***
  • Posts: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2014, 10:38:41 PM »
Mt. Spokane described it very thoroughly and eloquently.

For those that want it in a just a single picture, look at this graph:

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/ar/2013/highlight/p2.html

Ouch.
7D, EOS M, S95, 40D, S40, 10S, ...
EF 70-200 f4.0 L, EF 17-40 f4.0 L, EF 40mm f2.8, EF 28-135,  Sigma 30mm f1.4 EX, ....

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2014, 10:38:41 PM »

scottburgess

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
  • Canonical Canon
    • View Profile
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2014, 11:05:17 PM »
Yes, but from the standpoint of pure self-interest I would be hesitant to invest much in a camera system that may not be supported over the long run. This is one reason to stick with Canon and Nikon. There is no guarantee of course, but I feel more comfortable with an investment in Canon lenses than I would in Sony.

I am put off most by Sony's lack of depth (lens choices, flashes, accessories).  But my photographic pursuits align with the nature photographer, not the Christmas-with-the-kids shooter.  And I would agree with you if you said this may be a limiting factor for them in the marketplace.

However, in SLRs Sony seems to have recently gained some market share at Nikon's expense.  The big three are way ahead of the other IL camera makers, which include Olympus, Panasonic, Pentax-Ricoh, Leica, Zeiss, Sigma, Samsung... (consideration given here to micro-4/3rds and IL rangefinders).  A very crowded field with Canon, Nikon, and Sony dominating the market share.  Leica is a classic example of the boutique niche manufacturer.  Some of the others likewise have interesting market differentiation and arguably a near-term future.

I'd be much more worried about owning Pentax.  With the company split up between Hoya, Ricoh, and others, the recent absorption of the SLR division into Ricoh's B2B division (likely to support security cameras, which may be the only reason they bought half of the company), and the inability of the company to earn profits when they were whole despite having some talented engineers, I would guess they soon may be only a maker of compact cameras.  The possible demise of such a prominent brand reminds me of Argus.

Playing the odds I would expect the big three to be around for quite some time.  All three have huge businesses built around consumer-generated media, hold sufficient market share to have a long run in that business, and seem unlikely to strategically abandon photography and videography for the consumer/enthusiast/pro even if their balance sheets go weak in the knees.

Skulker

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 371
  • PP is no vice and as shot is no virtue
    • View Profile
Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2014, 01:49:35 PM »

In spite of my dislike of Sony as a company, their digital cameras are one of their bright spots right now, and are making money.
 
Where Sony is bleeding is in the Television and Phone part of the business.  Its dragging down the whole company.  That's where you may see some cuts.

Did you have a source for that info?

Read the Sony financial reports over the past two years.

can't say I'm interested enough to trawl through to find it. I just wondered if you could point it out.
If you debate with a fool onlookers can find it VERY difficult to tell the difference.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Is Sony junk....
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2014, 01:49:35 PM »