September 17, 2014, 09:56:55 AM

Author Topic: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?  (Read 3915 times)

crazyrunner33

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Re: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2014, 12:50:14 PM »
People often mention it... expose to the right... so you over expose your image a little and then in post move it back... less grain... more info that's not lost...

This is true for RAW, but not compressed video. H.264 will compress the highlights, using a flat picture style like Cinestyle and exposing normally is the best thing for H.264.


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Re: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2014, 12:50:14 PM »

flowers

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Re: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2014, 02:56:51 PM »
People often mention it... expose to the right... so you over expose your image a little and then in post move it back... less grain... more info that's not lost...

This is true for RAW, but not compressed video. H.264 will compress the highlights, using a flat picture style like Cinestyle and exposing normally is the best thing for H.264.

True, compressed h.264 doesn't have the highlight recovery latitude.

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Re: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2014, 04:15:01 PM »
What about using a clean HDMI out like the Atomos Ninja2 ?  With direct compression to ProRes, does the ISO mulitple still benefit from the '160 rule' as much?

And as far as pushing the blacks up / down, can you be a little more specific for the beginners in the audience.  If my workflow is MD3 clean video out to atomos ninja2 (with aforementioned ProRes direct compression), and editing in Final Cut or Premiere, what 'other' post-production software / plugin's etc do you recommend?  I'm just learning video editing, have access to the Creative Cloud package, but intimidated by the post-production / color grading, etc that is so often needed.
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flowers

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Re: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2014, 05:11:52 PM »
What about using a clean HDMI out like the Atomos Ninja2 ?  With direct compression to ProRes, does the ISO mulitple still benefit from the '160 rule' as much?

And as far as pushing the blacks up / down, can you be a little more specific for the beginners in the audience.  If my workflow is MD3 clean video out to atomos ninja2 (with aforementioned ProRes direct compression), and editing in Final Cut or Premiere, what 'other' post-production software / plugin's etc do you recommend?  I'm just learning video editing, have access to the Creative Cloud package, but intimidated by the post-production / color grading, etc that is so often needed.

Here's an article you might find of help to answer that question: http://www.photographybay.com/2011/04/17/atomos-ninja-hands-on/

Quote: "That said, you need a camera that sends an uncompressed full-res signal out of the HDMI port.  As you may know, most DSLRs don’t do this.  In fact, the Canon 5D Mark II, along with other Canon models, actually sends out a less-than-HD signal once you hit the record button."
If I understand it correctly, 5 series models don't output uncompressed video through hdmi, it's compressed before it reaches Ninja (but less than the file written on the SD card... I think!) also it's not full-res. Whatever Ninja outputs is compressed and upscaled. There's a firmware update for 5d iii apparently that give you uncompressed hdmi output (not sure about full res). You might want to consider ML. If you're prepared to handle ProRes then 14-bit RAW is not an incredibly huge step up. Just make sure whatever you're editing on has enough RAM and cores and threads to throw at the software you use to process, grade and edit your raw footage because it will use all you can throw at it. There's no chance of overkill.
ML is your only chance for 7d. There's no way something like 7D would ever output uncompressed clean full res feed, not even two out of three.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 05:13:36 PM by flowers »

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Re: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2014, 07:17:12 PM »
With a late 2013 8 Core Mac Pro and 32GB RAM, I'm not really worried about my machine freezing, but rather MY inability to correctly / efficiently post-process my video files. Despite using the same custom WB, my colors just don't seem as vibrant/accurate as my stills, and despite meticulous focusing (on a tripod,m statically shooting men's volleyball), the output is not as sharp as I would expect - so if any of the more experienced can point me in the right direction for fast-action video settings and post-processing tips, I'd appreciate that.  :)
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16-35/2.8; 24-70/2.8 II; 70-200/2.8 II, 100-400L
35/1.4, 40/2.8; 50/1.2, 85/1.2, 135/2; 200/2

HurtinMinorKey

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Re: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2014, 09:59:50 AM »
With a late 2013 8 Core Mac Pro and 32GB RAM, I'm not really worried about my machine freezing, but rather MY inability to correctly / efficiently post-process my video files. Despite using the same custom WB, my colors just don't seem as vibrant/accurate as my stills, and despite meticulous focusing (on a tripod,m statically shooting men's volleyball), the output is not as sharp as I would expect - so if any of the more experienced can point me in the right direction for fast-action video settings and post-processing tips, I'd appreciate that.  :)

HDMI doesn't really improve the video quality much.

https://vimeo.com/64917111

Canon nerfed the 5D3 pretty good to make it look appreciably  worse than their Cinema EOS line.  Your only option for increased sharpness and color is magic lantern. 

And with your shiny new Mac Pro, the work flow should be a breeze.

flowers

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Re: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2014, 06:40:46 AM »
With a late 2013 8 Core Mac Pro and 32GB RAM, I'm not really worried about my machine freezing, but rather MY inability to correctly / efficiently post-process my video files. Despite using the same custom WB, my colors just don't seem as vibrant/accurate as my stills, and despite meticulous focusing (on a tripod,m statically shooting men's volleyball), the output is not as sharp as I would expect - so if any of the more experienced can point me in the right direction for fast-action video settings and post-processing tips, I'd appreciate that.  :)
RAW will help on both accounts. You can take the vibrancy and saturation up as much as you like without artefacts. I recommend Lightroom for batch processing the files. Aperture on Mac  can probably also do batch processing? If your denoise plugin doesn't work in batch mode in LR I recommend you get Neat Video, it's a good denoising plugin. You just need to know your workflow in advance because you have to buy the plugin separately for any editor (Vegas Pro, After Effects, Premiere Pro & Elements, Final Cut Pro X 6 & 7, Motion, Final Cut Express, Virtual Dub, DV Resolve or any of the others the plugin supports). It's a little silly but that's how it works. I recommed denoising your RAW before exporting but in case that's not feasible Neat Video is a good alternative for denoising in post after compiling the frames into clips.
Fast action can often benefit from the "jerkiness" (Saving Private Ryan) of fast shutter speeds. If you think that look would fit your movie don't be afraid to use shutter speeds of 1/500 or higher. This will make every frame crisp and sharp from the lack of motion blurring. In LR you can also make settings (including sharpening) and copy and paste them on all the frames. This way you get the same amount of sharpening on all the frames you're working for. Topaz Denoise is the best denoising software you can find. It's amazing and it costs almost nothing considering it's the first and most important step in your processing. It also includes sliders for detail recovery (the second best if not the best detail recovery I've ever used), blur reduction and added grain (in case the noise removal leaves your image too clean and you don't like the look). Detail recovery and sharpening are also important in making your image look crips. There is another thing most people overlook: sharpness perception is based on contrast. Underconstrasted image will look soft no matter how sharp it is. Overall contrast is not the way to go. Selective contrast adjustment is what you want.
If you need more help, please let me know. :)

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Re: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2014, 06:40:46 AM »

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Re: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2014, 10:43:26 PM »
Assume for a moment, we are starting from scratch to shoot a volleyball match with a tripod (static) game film for the players/coaches. No tracking, just a simple behind the court view, and a second camera zoomed to the net for closeups, and a third camera on the scoreboard for cutaways after each point.
5d3 settings I currently use are 1/60, f8 and ISO to slightly overexpose (usually 2500, 3200 range) with MF achieved by zooming 10x during warmups at the players near the net, (using my 24-70 and 70-200 lenses), with a clean output via HDMI to Atomos Ninja2 on one of my bodies and CF cards on the other two (using IPB-I) and for the Ninja which codes to ProRes HQ 1080i@29.97
I import all 3 large clips to FCP, make my multi cam action edits, then export to H.264 codec to my website for all to view/download. Prior to export, when is the best time to denoise/colorgrade, etc?? Should I batch process each of the 3 large files before the edits, then import into FCP, or create the final timeline, then process??
Any other suggestions ??
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flowers

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Re: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2014, 04:17:46 AM »
I would first import the clips, cut and create the timeline as you suggested and then denoise and color grade (first denoise, then color grade). I noticed you said 1080i@29.97, 1080i has the same vertical resolution as 720p so it's softer for that reason also. I looked into Atomos Ninja when it seemed to be all the hype, I found it to be too much of a compromise but I don't remember the specifics anymore. Can your atomos record in 1080p? If it can, turn that on. Also your shutter speed of 60 fps? That's fine if you're making a film but have you ever seen sharp frames of volleyball in a movie? Of course not, it's all soft and motion blurry to give it that cinematic feel. You'd only use higher shutter speeds for special occasions, maybe a slo-mo close up of the person hitting the winning "goal" (I have no idea what a goal is called in volleyball) but even then not the jerky crisp kind. you have to decide on the look you want, that's the first thing. your look defines everything else. you don't shoot at 1/60s because it's 1/60s f/4 ISO 1600 outside, you shoot at 1/60s because that's what the look you're going for demands and add or substract light according to the light you have available. i would avoid sharpening the image too much, you might get some artefacts. get neat video, import into fcp, denoise with neat video, add sc sharpen to sharpen the image a little, adjust contrast (the less contrast, the more soft the image appears) and see what you get. have you compared 1080p footage SOOC without ninja and the 1080i (deinterlaced interpreted 1080p but really 720p-verticalres)? which looks softer? is it the camera only being able to output 1080i but not 1080p or is it the limitation of the ninja recorder? you need to find the cause of the perceived softness to see if there's anything you can do about it.

flowers

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Re: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2014, 05:19:59 AM »
I've found out that when making the h.264 footage Canon cameras take the raw data from the sensor, downscale it to 1732 X 974, resizes it up and down a few times (to help with moire I assume, a form of VAA), applies chroma subsampling, standard noise reduction that isn't very great and also sharpens the image (unsharp style?) and then compresses it to h.264 and sends it out the usb port (without h.264 compression but not uncompressed). All that resizing and downsampling degrades the image quality and no external recorder can fix that.

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Re: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2014, 11:26:19 AM »
I would first import the clips, cut and create the timeline as you suggested and then denoise and color grade (first denoise, then color grade). I noticed you said 1080i@29.97, 1080i has the same vertical resolution as 720p so it's softer for that reason also. I looked into Atomos Ninja when it seemed to be all the hype, I found it to be too much of a compromise but I don't remember the specifics anymore. Can your atomos record in 1080p? If it can, turn that on. Also your shutter speed of 60 fps? That's fine if you're making a film but have you ever seen sharp frames of volleyball in a movie? Of course not, it's all soft and motion blurry to give it that cinematic feel. You'd only use higher shutter speeds for special occasions, maybe a slo-mo close up of the person hitting the winning "goal" (I have no idea what a goal is called in volleyball) but even then not the jerky crisp kind. you have to decide on the look you want, that's the first thing. your look defines everything else. you don't shoot at 1/60s because it's 1/60s f/4 ISO 1600 outside, you shoot at 1/60s because that's what the look you're going for demands and add or substract light according to the light you have available. i would avoid sharpening the image too much, you might get some artefacts. get neat video, import into fcp, denoise with neat video, add sc sharpen to sharpen the image a little, adjust contrast (the less contrast, the more soft the image appears) and see what you get. have you compared 1080p footage SOOC without ninja and the 1080i (deinterlaced interpreted 1080p but really 720p-verticalres)? which looks softer? is it the camera only being able to output 1080i but not 1080p or is it the limitation of the ninja recorder? you need to find the cause of the perceived softness to see if there's anything you can do about it.
Thanks for your time / opinions on this - the look I am trying to achieve is the 'sharpest (best-focused) / least motion-blur' game footage for players/parents/coaches.
With these recording options on the Ninja2
(HD 1080i60, 1080i59.94, 1080i50, 1080p30, 1080p25,
1080p24, 1080p23.98, 1080p30(60i), 1080p25(50i),
1080p24(60i), 1080p23.98(60i), 720p60, 720p59.94,
20p50, SD 486i59.94, 576i50)
which would you recommend, and with the 5d3, I am not sure if the compression 'option' is relevant when outputting thru the HDMI, but if it does, which do you prefer? Also, with respect to shutter speed, I chose 1/60 for the 'rule' of 2x frame rate, but should I shoot 1080p30(60i) or go to 720p60/ I do that, then while the NINJA says it supports that, it is not an option when I tried it last time (not sure if I made mistake in camera output) or if it is real limitation (typo) on their end.  My ultimate goal is to have a tournament's worth of games on a BLURAY disc look as focused/sharp and correctly colored as possible.  :)
Appreciate your clarifying my settings/workflow.
1Dx, 1DIV, 5D3, 7D, (Sigma 15 FE)
16-35/2.8; 24-70/2.8 II; 70-200/2.8 II, 100-400L
35/1.4, 40/2.8; 50/1.2, 85/1.2, 135/2; 200/2

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Re: 5D Mk3 Grainy footage. Any ideas?
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2014, 11:26:19 AM »