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Author Topic: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?  (Read 80464 times)

privatebydesign

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2014, 09:29:51 AM »
I have some experience with anti-reflection coatings in the Ophthalmic (ie: eyeglasses) industry.

If anti-reflection coatings are not perfectly applied, they do indeed seem to peel off over time without the consumer doing anything wrong.  The companies that make lenses for eyeglasses have had a lot of problems with this ever since AR coatings became popular about 20 years ago.   I think this problem is pretty rare in cameras and other optical instruments, because I have never seen it, but it seems likely that a batch of front elements was not properly coated.

As far as I know, there is nothing the consumer can do to make the AR coat start peeling without doing something drastic that would damage other parts of the lens in some obvious way.  It certainly is not due to any kind of cleaning and it is not caused by scratches.  A defective coating is really easy for me to spot because I've seen hundreds, but a camera tech probably hasn't seen many.

My guess is that either the machine that applies the coating to a batch of lenses in a vacuum chamber was not operating properly or the lenses were not properly cleaned before the coating process.  No way for us to know how big a batch is or how many batches were affected.

I don't think it would be appropriate to recall every one of these lenses, since the number of lenses affected is probably small.  In my opinion, Canon should issue a warranty notice like they did for the improperly secured mirrors on the early 5D classic.  If somebody sends a lens in with a defective coating, it gets fixed for free regardless of warranty status.  This is clearly a manufacturing defect.  Technicians should be told what a defective coating looks like so that they don't blame the customer.  It is really easy to spot a defective coating, it's the one that looks like it is peeling off!

What Canon chooses to do about this will tell us a lot about their commitment to customer service.  It will either make them look good or it will make them look bad.

Absolutely spot on. I would hope Canon do react like that once they recognise the actual reason for the damage.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2014, 09:29:51 AM »

Rienzphotoz

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2014, 10:00:53 AM »
But thanks for caring about my mood swings! WTF!
Seems like your mood swings are leading you astray coz you are thanking me for nothing, FYI I really don't care a sh!t about your mood swings.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2014, 10:02:59 AM »
So if I'm reading this correctly, there are three people on this board with this same lens failure, one of whom got a free in-warranty repair, one of whom didn't notice it until outside the warranty period and got bent over a barrel, and one of whom hasn't sent it off yet.

Almost every electronics manufacturer in the world would have done a silent recall for this sort of failure, and would have done the repair for free, even outside the warranty period.  It's a bit scary that Canon doesn't do that.  Not doing so significantly tarnishes my opinion of Canon as a brand.

I'll remember this thread next time I'm deciding whether to buy a Canon lens or a third-party lens.  Just saying.

So if I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that almost every electronics manufacturer in the world would have done a recall based on two failures for which they have evidence?  That's tarnished thinking, IMO.  If a recall was initiated based on a minuscule fraction of failures, 'almost every electronics manufacturer in the world' would have gone bankrupt by now.

Any manufacturer first has to determine the extent of the issue (number of affected units), identify the cause of the problem and a solution, then decide on a course of action. That takes time and data - how many production runs affected, what frequency of affected units in the run(s), etc., and two failures isn't enough data...even 200 verified failures may not provide enough data.

Canon has a pretty good history of issuing service advisories for identified issues (everything from PowerShots to the 1-series bodies - S100 lens issue, rubber grips turning white on several bodies, 5DIII light leak, 1D X lubrication, 24-105 flare, etc.).  Some other vendors are far worse.  Nikon seems to release new models instead of fixing the problems (D610, SB910).  How long did it take nvidia to acknowledge the 8600M GT chips overheating?  Apple issued a recall for MB Pros with the chip while nvidia was still denying the problem, and when nvidia finally acknowledged the issue it cost them $3B in market cap and their CEO was sued for covering up the extent of the problem. I guess you should also remember this thread the next time you're deciding whether to buy a computer with an nvidia chip... 
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Marsu42

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2014, 11:36:52 AM »
"pros with cps who will get it fixed for free no matter the warranty." What?  A discount--but "free"?

I'm just a plain ol' silver cps member, and then only in the EU where cps is free if you happen to have enough camera bodies - so I don't have a lot of personal experience. But I have read some about cps and Canon service and have felt a strong difference when going to the counter with a cps card...

... I'd say that for expensive gear (= Canon already made a profit) and cases where the blame is uncertain like this 24-70L2 case a platinum cps membership could help a lot to get things fixed even after warranty - at least "free" in the sense you pay only for parts, but not for labor or vice versa. Ymmv.

dgatwood

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2014, 11:56:25 AM »
Almost every electronics manufacturer in the world would have done a silent recall for this sort of failure, and would have done the repair for free, even outside the warranty period.  It's a bit scary that Canon doesn't do that.  Not doing so significantly tarnishes my opinion of Canon as a brand.

So if I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that almost every electronics manufacturer in the world would have done a recall based on two failures for which they have evidence?  That's tarnished thinking, IMO.  If a recall was initiated based on a minuscule fraction of failures, 'almost every electronics manufacturer in the world' would have gone bankrupt by now.

A silent recall != a recall.  A silent recall is an internal notice that says, "If you see this problem, fix it, don't charge the customer, and don't tell them why."  You'd be surprised how frequently these things happen.  You'd also be surprised how frequently most manufacturer service reps silently authorize a warranty exception, even without a formal notice, particularly for products that are just a couple of months out of warranty, as these are.  (Bear in mind that the 24-70 II didn't ship until September of 2012, so the absolute oldest lenses out there are only five months out of warranty.)

For the most part, the cost of a gratis repair is less than the cost of a lost customer.  So unless something is obviously caused by neglect, most companies give their service reps a lot of leeway to extend one-time repair coverage to customers even if their product isn't quite under warranty.  And there are certain types of failures that simply shouldn't happen anywhere near the end of the warranty period.

Catastrophic failure of a lens coating is one of those things that should never happen, even within a decade of the end of the warranty.  If it is happening to a few people in the first few months out of warranty, unless there was a process change to fix it, it's going to start happening to a lot of people a few months later.  And if there was a process change to fix this problem, then Canon knows about it, and it's gross negligence (bordering on willful fraud) to not have a silent recall for all lenses within the affected serial number range.  Either way, sending a $555 bill is really, really bad customer service by industry standards.


Apple issued a recall for MB Pros with the chip while nvidia was still denying the problem, and when nvidia finally acknowledged the issue it cost them $3B in market cap and their CEO was sued for covering up the extent of the problem. I guess you should also remember this thread the next time you're deciding whether to buy a computer with an nvidia chip...

Actually, Apple issued a semi-silent recall—a repair extension program that AFAIK wasn't announced to customers (except for the notice on their website).  Most people only heard about it when they took their machines in for repair and got them fixed for free outside of the normal warranty period.  They didn't ask people to send in their hardware if it wasn't having problems.  And yes, I'm wary of NVIDIA hardware as a direct result of that incident, but personally, I place most of the blame on Europe for the ROHS nonsense that has single-handedly lowered electronics reliability more than all the other environmental initiatives in the last hundred years combined.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2014, 01:15:17 PM »
A silent recall != a recall.  A silent recall is an internal notice...

Okay, now I understand.  Your opinion of Canon is tarnished and you may not buy another OEM lens because they haven't issued a silent recall – one which, by your own definition, is internal so you shouldn't expect to hear about it – based on a problem which affects an unknown but presumably very small number of units, and which was reported very recently. 

Whatever.  Go buy a Sigma lens, and have fun playing the QC and AF lotteries...   ::)
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YuengLinger

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2014, 02:20:18 PM »
I got showered in bat pee last night.  (No, I didn't pay for it.)  I was taking pictures at sunset of a bat-house and should have brought an umbrella.

Anyway, I'm glad I didn't have my 24-70mm attached at the time, even with its UV filter attached as always, because now my Sigma smells like what rained on it!

Come to think of it, the photo in this thread of the front element looks like something did get sprayed on there.  Not to be paranoid or suspicious (can't help myself), but from time to time, "friends" and angry significant others have been known to do nasty things to belongings, and what better place to wound a photographer than in the gear?

Just throwing in an extra variable to the mix!

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2014, 02:20:18 PM »

dgatwood

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2014, 08:56:31 PM »
A silent recall != a recall.  A silent recall is an internal notice...

Okay, now I understand.  Your opinion of Canon is tarnished and you may not buy another OEM lens because they haven't issued a silent recall – one which, by your own definition, is internal so you shouldn't expect to hear about it – based on a problem which affects an unknown but presumably very small number of units, and which was reported very recently. 

Expect to hear about it, no.  Expect such a failure to be fixed without charge, even outside of warranty, yes.  Which it wasn't.  Hence my comment.


Whatever.  Go buy a Sigma lens, and have fun playing the QC and AF lotteries...   ::)

The reason I made that comment is that I've been avoiding certain third-party lenses because of a similar failure of some of their lenses just outside of warranty that they would not stand behind.  One of the major reasons to buy Canon lenses goes away if they don't take care of their customers any better than the third-party lens vendors.

Oh, and some of my Canon lenses have been a QC lottery, too.  That's not specific to third-party lenses.  It's common to most mass-manufactured products where high precision is required.

Rienzphotoz

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2014, 11:17:52 PM »
I got showered in bat pee last night.  (No, I didn't pay for it.)  I was taking pictures at sunset of a bat-house and should have brought an umbrella.
Animal pee, that is some nasty stuff ... about 7 years ago, the JVC camcorder my wife was using got sprayed by a well timed Lion pee at our local ... that was quite a nasty odour ... when my wife turned off the camcorder (to clean it), the lens front element was covered with the auto lens cover, so she cleaned the whole camcorder exterior and not the lens front element ... and when she finally turned it on after several weeks (if not months), we noticed a small spot on the lens front element, which cannot be removed now. Since that camcorder is old and no one wants to buy it, we still have that it as a souvenir  ;D 

from time to time, "friends" and angry significant others have been known to do nasty things to belongings, and what better place to wound a photographer than in the gear?
I hope you are not speaking from personal experience ;D
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shhooter

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2014, 09:45:52 PM »
Update: After pushing back on the initial ($500+) repair estimate I requested a e-mail with a detailed description from the tech of what they believed caused of the coating to disintegrate. A week passed, I called twice to check the status and they assured me I would have the e-mail from the tech soon.

I never received the e-mail, but Friday they sent me a new repair estimate stating they would replace the front element at no cost and today the lens was FedEx'ed back to me. I'm glad Canon is handling the issue even out of warranty, I truly believe I had a defective coating and it seems they came to the same conclusion.

privatebydesign

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2014, 09:48:06 PM »
Sweet.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2014, 10:13:50 PM »
I wonder if there's a silent recall after all.  ::) 

Quick, somebody get the tarnish remover, there's a reputation to be polished.   ;)
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privatebydesign

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2014, 10:19:41 PM »
There is no way the doubters are going to eat any of that humble pie, it is way easier slinging mud without basis........
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2014, 10:19:41 PM »

J.R.

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2014, 10:54:45 PM »
Exit, pursued by a bear  ;D
I took a hiatus from CR for a year and a half. The discussions haven't changed much. Excellent information is still being shared while people bitching about Canon cameras are still bitching and haven't moved on to Sony

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2014, 11:38:14 PM »
So far, we've had three failures, not by regular members, but those who came to the group asking for info. 
 
Considering the huge numbers of people who search google and see the posts of the group, there is no cause for alarm.  If one of the batches out of 10's of thousands was bad, there is likely a miniscule number that actually failed.  I would, as others noted, expect Canon to fix mine within two years of purchase.  I used my Amex Card which doubles the warranty, so I'm good for quite a while longer.
I have heard that Canon USA is much better than Canon Europe at dealing with issues like this, so those with issues need to register a complaint, and hopefully, they used a cred card that extended their warranty. 

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Re: 24-70 f/2.8 L II front coating peeling off?
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2014, 11:38:14 PM »