August 29, 2014, 06:01:16 AM

Author Topic: Canon's Medium Format  (Read 21561 times)

CarlTN

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Re: Canon's Medium Format
« Reply #165 on: April 03, 2014, 10:55:30 PM »
If a camera with a Foveon sensor was available in late 2008/early 2009, I very probably would. However, Foveon was a mythical beast back then...the sensor was designed, but Sigma did not own it at the time. There WAS no Foveon camera. So I ended up with Canon. I'm now bought into the Canon system. I own tens of thousands of dollars worth of Canon lenses. Canon cameras are better for astrophotography. I have no reason to switch now.

You obviously are trying to have it both ways, trying to appear unbiased.  You frankly have everything against this concept, when it comes to this manufacturer. Admit it, you don't like Sigma as a company, you would not buy any of their lenses or cameras. 

I have absolutely no qualms about admitting I am biased against Sigma's handling of Foveon. I think they are doing it an injustice. I haven't NOT admitted that, as a matter of fact, I've been pretty up front about it! Beyond that, please don't try and put words or opinions in my mouth. As I've told you many times in the past, you really do not know me, Carl. You are a small, weak man who has to poke and jab from the sidelines, because you are too afraid to just stand up and be strait with anyone. So you poke and to prod and you bait, just like your doing here now. I'll be strait up and honest again: I find that to be pathetic and distasteful. Especially on a public forum like this.

So here's the truth. I'm not against Sigma in general, I think their recent lenses are EXCELLENT, and I applaud them for providing some competition on that front for Canon and Nikon. I GREATLY appreciate the fact that Sigma exists and is continuing to produce quality lenses, especially for short focal lengths/wide angles. I've had my eye on the Sigms 35mm for a while, and I may buy one of their wide angle zooms. I'm not against buying Sigma, so long at it meets my own personal quality standards. I hope they stick around, too, for the long run. I truly do not care for their cameras. I have absolutely no problem admitting that. It's my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I have no reason to hide mine. I think they have potential, but Sigma just doesn't put the right kind of effort into their cameras. I've found their firmware to be very lacking, to be more specific, and I am definitely not the only one. They have made strides over the years, but their progress on the ergonomics, functionality, and firmware front is too slow. They would have to rival Canon's ergonomics and firmware for me to take much interest in them. I'll be quite frank here, it wouldn't matter if Sigma used a bayer type sensor or the Foveon in their cameras...that isn't the reason I wouldn't buy one.


But The difference between you and me is, I've owned a foveon camera, the one with the sensor you deride most (and I currently own 2 Sigma lenses at the moment).  It simply had more resolution than its native 4.6 MP dimensions...I'm sorry but it just did.  You can rely on math all you like, but the proof is in the using, and viewing.  To say that it only had 4.6 MP of resolution is utter nonsense.  Plenty of reviews have backed me up on this.

Take a look at my recent reply to VSCD. I used his own sample images to prove, visually, the difference in resolution between the SD1 and the D800. The difference is very obvious. If there was a tiny difference, it wouldn't be obvious. From a pixel size standpoint, the SD1, which has no AA filter AND requires no interpolation, has at least 2.5 pixels for the fiber widths of the finest strands of thread in the upper right corner (in some cases it seems to be close to 3px). The D800 has about 1.25 pixels for the fiber widths of the finest strands of thread in the upper right corner. That is a spatial resolution difference of at least 200%!! That sounds about right...15mp vs. 36.3mp. From a SPATIAL resolution standpoint, Foveon sensors cannot be measured by their photodiode count. They have to be measured from their literal pixel count on the sensor (each Foveon pixel has three photodiodes). So yes, your camera has 4.6mp of "resolution"...spatial resolution, or resolving power. There is nothing you can do about it.

As for the Quattro sensor, I have no idea why it has fewer photodiodes for the other color channels...but frankly, if they are making the camera produce a 39 MP jpeg, then logic would dictate that it is resolving at least somewhat more than 10 MP.

You can create a 39mp JPEG simply by upscaling. However again, I have provided a demonstration of how upscaling does not increase resolution by using VSCD's own images. Go see for yourself. Sigma can upscale to their hearts content, it doesn't change the fundamental laws of physics that govern how much real resolution you have.

With a bayer array, you don't have 18 MP of all three colors of photodiode in your 7D.  You have far less than that.  And yet you're happy with the results you get.

Your right in that I don't get 18mp of "colors". I get 18mp of "luminance", I get less than 18mp of "chrominance". Again, I haven't been trying to hide that fact. I've been very explicit in my answers as to the terms I use. Again, refer to the SD1 vs. D800 GIF I posted. LUMINANCE resolution in a bayer sensor is "full"...you get 18mp, or 20mp, or 22.3mp or 36.3mp, whatever it is. Your CHROMINANCE (color) resolution is LESS than full, because of the interpolation. That causes a loss in color fidelity (color accuracy, natural vibrancy, color contrast), but it does NOT cause a loss of spatial resolution.

I really don't know how many times I'll have to say that before it sinks in. I'm not obfuscating the facts here, I'm trying to expose them. I guess you guys will have to remove the scales from your eyes first, though, because the message really doesn't seem to be sinking in.

Again, the proof is in the using, and the images, and less so the math.  Math can be used to predict things like a rise of 10 feet in sea level over the next 20 years due to that nasty old capitalism, but how accurate, honest, and complete is that math?

Sure, the proof is in the images. I think I proved with the little GIF I posted that the D800 has about twice the spatial resolution as the upscaled SD1 image. Math and theory simply model reality, physics. Use and sample images cannot violate the laws of physics here, there is no magic bullet that will somehow make a 15mp Foveon have the same spatial resolution as a 36.3mp D800E, or even a 36.3mp D800 with AA filter. It just can't happen.

I'm not exactly sure how the bit about rising sea levels has anything to do with the debate here. That is less based on math and more based on speculation and assumption...the prediction about how much sea levels might rise is indeed mathematical, based on the volume and density of ice found at the poles, however whether the prediction comes true or not is not based on math, it's based on the (probably mistaken) assumption that global temperatures will continue to rise. Since August 2013, global temperatures have taken a deep dive...when Arctic sea ice was supposed to disappear entirely in August, instead it was at it's greatest extent in decades. Where the winter this year was supposed to be mild, it's been record-breaking cold.

Don't conflate speculation with math. I'm not speculating about Foveon...Foveon is no longer some mythical sensor that is predicted to materialize at some future date. Foveon is a concrete thing that actually exists, has explicit specifications, and HAS BEEN measured with enough accuracy to prove that math and reality, a far as it pertains to Foveon, DO correlate.

The first generation foveon sensor was available in the early or mid 2000's, it was before 2008.

Your post is insulting and I'm reporting it for abuse.  I am not a small, weak man.  You are the small weak man, who attempts to compensate for your shortcomings by posting lengthy forum posts.

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Re: Canon's Medium Format
« Reply #165 on: April 03, 2014, 10:55:30 PM »

jrista

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Re: Canon's Medium Format
« Reply #166 on: April 04, 2014, 12:25:14 AM »
The first generation foveon sensor was available in the early or mid 2000's, it was before 2008.

Your post is insulting and I'm reporting it for abuse.  I am not a small, weak man.  You are the small weak man, who attempts to compensate for your shortcomings by posting lengthy forum posts.

Please, report away. There is a very healthy trail on these forums that clearly demonstrates who the antagonist is, in EVERY case. You, Carl, are a very antagonistic individual. It isn't just me you antagonize, you poke and prod and insult otherwise antagonize anyone who seems to disagree with you, the only difference between me and them is I'm tired of letting you get away with it.

So PLEASE, REPORT ME.

Let's see if we can get to the bottom of your mental disorder, and figure out a way to help you LEAVE IT BEHIND when you decide to come onto these forums and participate in a public community. I'm tired of having you insult and berate everyone you dislike because they have disagreed with you, or proven you wrong, or called you out. I'm HAPPY to be friendly and cordial with you on these forums. There is evidence all over these forums that clearly demonstrate you as being the instigator, and me regularly ignoring your antagonism, and in every case I've always only ever RESPONDED to your insults, never instigated them myself. So go ahead, report away.
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jrista

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Re: Canon's Medium Format
« Reply #167 on: April 04, 2014, 05:20:22 PM »
Sorry, everyone! Did not mean to kill this thread.

Regularly scheduled medium format discussion should continue from here.
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Re: Canon's Medium Format
« Reply #167 on: April 04, 2014, 05:20:22 PM »