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Author Topic: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?  (Read 27827 times)

spturtle

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #315 on: February 20, 2014, 08:52:47 AM »
There has been something of a chicken and the egg problem with CFast (availability of cards vs things to put them in) but the D800 has really broken the ground on that one so the future should be much better for everyone. Now if the D800 had never of happened then we might be mired into an awful place where SD and related cards were the only way forward for quite some time for performance reasons. That would have been a big problem for the industry in general.

I thought the D800 has compact flash and SD card slots, not CFast (Nikon uses the competing XQD in the D4).

BTW if we are talking about 4k video data rates, something called H.265/HEVC exists which should double the compression ratio. This may hold up introduction of 4k video recording features if display devices and editing software don't support it yet.

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #315 on: February 20, 2014, 08:52:47 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #316 on: February 20, 2014, 09:03:45 AM »
There has been something of a chicken and the egg problem with CFast (availability of cards vs things to put them in) but the D800 has really broken the ground on that one so the future should be much better for everyone. Now if the D800 had never of happened then we might be mired into an awful place where SD and related cards were the only way forward for quite some time for performance reasons. That would have been a big problem for the industry in general.

I thought the D800 has compact flash and SD card slots, not CFast (Nikon uses the competing XQD in the D4).

Yes, something else dilbert is wrong about. Big surprise…
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dilbert

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #317 on: February 20, 2014, 11:33:51 AM »
There has been something of a chicken and the egg problem with CFast (availability of cards vs things to put them in) but the D800 has really broken the ground on that one so the future should be much better for everyone. Now if the D800 had never of happened then we might be mired into an awful place where SD and related cards were the only way forward for quite some time for performance reasons. That would have been a big problem for the industry in general.

I thought the D800 has compact flash and SD card slots, not CFast (Nikon uses the competing XQD in the D4).

Yes, something else dilbert is wrong about. Big surprise…

Well then Nikon are idiots for not using CFast in both.

dilbert

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #318 on: February 20, 2014, 11:36:43 AM »
Hey, I quoted plenty of facts above in URLs.

Yes, but apparently you failed to verify the information (which I have done on rare occasions, but I have the decency to own up to my mistake and apologize for it), and that's assuming you even read the pages to which you linked.  There is a lot of misinformation on the Internet, and it's easy to find a URL to show pretty much anything you want.

Actually it is pretty hard to find a definitive answer on the PS4 and 4K to the point where you could probably argue either way.

And you're singling out one in the face of many others being spot on.

So if you want to put your head in the sand and pay attention to the one that is questionable (and by questionable I mean it is damn hard to get a definitive answer either way on the PS4 which is to say it is not possible to say yes or no with any authority) whilst ignoring all of those that are accurate and verifiable, be my guest... but the world is moving forward and the next train stop is 4k, with or without you and jrista.

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There are those who are ready to embrace the future (4k) and those who are afraid of it and change.

Which camp are you in?

I'm in the camp that is not opposed to 4K video, but is sufficiently rational to understand the fact that it is not yet a mainstream technology.  That's probably the second largest camp (the largest camp being the '4K video? what the hell is that?' camp).

Will you be saying the same thing in twelve months?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 11:40:20 AM by dilbert »

dilbert

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #319 on: February 20, 2014, 11:43:48 AM »
If Canon do a 7D Mark II this year without 4k and the successor to that is some 3 or 4 years away then its life span as a modern and relevant tool in video production will be quite short.

Who's stating opinion as fact now?  You sound almost as confident as those who stated that having sensors with 2-stop lower DR would cause Canon's dSLR sales to plummet.

 ::)

;) The barrier to entry for Canon folks to convert to Nikon is probably too high for them the consider shifting. Or maybe there are usability factors. But over time, if Canon continues to fail to deliver, it won't work in their favor. People don't have an infinite amount of patience.

It does seem you have an infinite amount of patience to crib about Canon on the internet. While I applaud the effort, I don't see what drives you to do this instead of simply buying equipment which meets your requirements.

Well what's the alternative? Be a fan-boi that applauds all of Canon's dumb moves at every step? Get real. Maybe some people like to polish turds and find nice ways to say that people are lazy without using that word but I'm so over people politically correct. Canon appear to be in a rut and if I didn't know better, they've misread where the market is going with respect to where they should have been focusing on sensor development.

dilbert

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #320 on: February 20, 2014, 11:46:59 AM »
...
Um, first off, PS4 isn't 4k capable. Both Microsoft and Sony have been rumored to be investigating support, but neither have 4k support yet. If 4k was as close as you say, they would have both been released with 4k OOTB.


Sony talking about 4K support in the PS4:
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gamesgear/ps4-can-handle-4k-output-but-not-for-games-50010491/

... so it will play 4K content on the PS4. No support for 4K games, but that's different from 4K movies/video.


Are you sure that is 4k BluRay playback? Or is it just high resolution online video playback (which is certainly a step in the right direction).


Bury your head in the sand all you want. This is Sony saying that their equipment will playback 4k movies and you're saying that Sony is wrong? Usually everyone sort of agrees with what the vendor says their equipment is capable of but of you want to say "No, Sony is telling a lie, it won't do that" then by all means, deny it all you want. The rest of the world has and is moving on. The 20th century is back there somewhere behind us, maybe you'll feel more comfortable there? I mean there is no point responding to anything else you say if you're going to deny what the manufacturer is saying about the capabilities of their own equipment. It would be like you saying "No, Canon's 5D Mark III doesn't do 22MP, it really only does 11MP." You lose.

If you want to be a luddite then by all means go and buy yourself a film camera and we'll get off your lawn. But the digital and IT space moves quickly and if you can't keep up (or don't want to keep up) then fine but don't insist that everyone else has to move as slowly as you do.

If you can't adapt to change then you're already prehistoric. This is the 21st century AD, not the 1st AD.


You linked to an article written 9 months prior to the release of the PS4, in which Sony claimed the console would support 4K for photos and video.

The reality, when it finally shipped, is that 4k support is 'in consideration' by Sony, and the console currently does not have any 4K support.


So you're saying I should apologise for a vendor misleading the public on something? I think you're pointing your stick at the wrong person, buddy.



Correct, you shouldn't apologize for citing an outdated (and subsequently incorrect) article for being the basis of your claims ... and I also hear that Courts are accepting hearsay as evidence  ::) ::)


Well I can't find anything that definitively says it is wrong either. LOTS of speculation and it would appear that Sony hasn't gone on the record with respect to this one way or the other.

That could mean lots of things, the simplest being they haven't ironed out all of the bugs in 4k playback. It could also be that they want a better/bigger catalog or that they haven't worked out how to deliver it in a fashion that makes it invulnerable to ripping. Or ....

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #321 on: February 20, 2014, 11:56:44 AM »
Canon's dSLR sales fell slightly last year, for the first time in several years.  Their explanation was a downturn in the global economy, but maybe the real reason, the one they don't want us to know about, was a loss of consumer confidence because they added f/8 AF to the 1D X and 5DIII, and clean HDMI out to the 5DIII, via firmware updates, when clearly those features could have been included at launch.  ::)

Ah, yes, sarcasm. (See, I can identified it without needing hints.)

But basically the cameras mentioned were capable of f/8 AF at launch, only Canon didn't activate it. Then there was a big stink about how pathetic it is that a professional grade, top-of-line camera can't AF at f/8, so Canon, to save face, concocted some good PR story and enabled the functionality in a firmware update, accompanied by much fanfare. Yeah!
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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #321 on: February 20, 2014, 11:56:44 AM »

jrista

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #322 on: February 20, 2014, 12:27:37 PM »
I would even be willing to bet that Canon could add new 4k features and functionality to the 1D X and 5D III as well, if the time comes that consumers really demand it.

If I were a videographer right now, using either the 1DX or the 5D3 since their respective availability, and Canon releases firmware updates enabling 4K recording with these cameras, then ...
  • it would mean that the camera was capable of this functionality right from the start, but Canon chose to "cripple" the camera for some obscure and probably financial reason; and
  • I'd have serious doubts about ever using Canon products again.

But, hey, that's just silly old me!  ;)
I have no doubts that a 1DX or a 7D2 would be capable of capturing 4K video with a firmware update, but unless there is faster storage, you will have slow frame rates and heavy compression.  Ask yourself, what is the good of having 4K video that it so heavily compressed that it looks like up sampled 2K video?

You need fast storage before you will get decent 4K video.

You seem to keep forgetting that cinematic frame rate is 24fps. Anything higher, and you have "high speed recording for slow motion video". It is not standard yet to play back videos on your TV at anything faster than a 24fps video frame rate. The TV REFRESH rate may be higher, may be as high as 240hz, but refresh rate and frame rate are very different things. Hollywood itself is just now starting to EXPERIMENT with 48fps frame rates, however when it comes to any higher frame rates, the purpose is to record at a higher rate that is still played back at the standard...that's what produces slow motion. For all intents and purposes, for consumers, THE frame rate is 24fps. That isn't low, it's just standard. And it's what most people's videos will be played back at.

At 24fps, with standard forms of video compression (which do a remarkable job at not making video look like crap, while reducing it by as much as 72%), Canon's current cameras should be more than capable of handling 24fps 4k video. They just wouldn't be able to do RAW 4k video (however that really is a high end feature, as most consumers wouldn't even know what to do with RAW 4k video, and probably wouldn't have the tools to do anything with it if they did know what it was.)
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jrista

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #323 on: February 20, 2014, 12:32:53 PM »
...
Um, first off, PS4 isn't 4k capable. Both Microsoft and Sony have been rumored to be investigating support, but neither have 4k support yet. If 4k was as close as you say, they would have both been released with 4k OOTB.


Sony talking about 4K support in the PS4:
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gamesgear/ps4-can-handle-4k-output-but-not-for-games-50010491/

... so it will play 4K content on the PS4. No support for 4K games, but that's different from 4K movies/video.


Are you sure that is 4k BluRay playback? Or is it just high resolution online video playback (which is certainly a step in the right direction).


Bury your head in the sand all you want. This is Sony saying that their equipment will playback 4k movies and you're saying that Sony is wrong? Usually everyone sort of agrees with what the vendor says their equipment is capable of but of you want to say "No, Sony is telling a lie, it won't do that" then by all means, deny it all you want. The rest of the world has and is moving on. The 20th century is back there somewhere behind us, maybe you'll feel more comfortable there? I mean there is no point responding to anything else you say if you're going to deny what the manufacturer is saying about the capabilities of their own equipment. It would be like you saying "No, Canon's 5D Mark III doesn't do 22MP, it really only does 11MP." You lose.

If you want to be a luddite then by all means go and buy yourself a film camera and we'll get off your lawn. But the digital and IT space moves quickly and if you can't keep up (or don't want to keep up) then fine but don't insist that everyone else has to move as slowly as you do.

If you can't adapt to change then you're already prehistoric. This is the 21st century AD, not the 1st AD.


Aye, it says "movies". To my knowledge, the word "movies" is not a synonym for "bluray". Generally speaking, if you have 100gb 4k bluray support, you say as much. Movies could mean a whole hell of a lot of things, including 4k movie streaming off the net. As I said, that's certainly a step in the right direction...but it doesn't confirm support for the only true source of ultra high definition video content: 100Gb 4k BluRay Disk playback.

I never said Sony lies. Its just that their verbiage seems unclear to me. Again, if I'm wrong, I'm happy to admit it. (Which is a trait I've NEVER seen you exhibit, btw! I don't expect you to ever man up and admit when your wrong, either.) I just haven't seen any information out there that actually stated the PS4 (or even the XBox One, for that matter) would be capable of playing back 4k movies from BluRay disks. I now the XBox One supports ultra high def content from online sources, but again that's a little different (although certainly a step in the right direction.)
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jrista

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #324 on: February 20, 2014, 12:35:27 PM »
So you're saying I should apologise for a vendor misleading the public on something? I think you're pointing your stick at the wrong person, buddy.

Even if that is the case, it would just mean that Sony missed the boat on 4k. Why? Because they've been talking up the capabilities of their equipment, meaning that is where they want to be, not stuck with 1080p.

Ah! So, I WAS right? Hmm, and...what did I say? Oh, right...that YOU wouldn't MAN UP and admit YOUR faults. Um...see above. Nuff said.

Must be nice to be a hypocrite and not give a damn, Dilbert. You have no credibility. You have no respect.
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jrista

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #325 on: February 20, 2014, 12:40:04 PM »
I would even be willing to bet that Canon could add new 4k features and functionality to the 1D X and 5D III as well, if the time comes that consumers really demand it.

If I were a videographer right now, using either the 1DX or the 5D3 since their respective availability, and Canon releases firmware updates enabling 4K recording with these cameras, then ...
  • it would mean that the camera was capable of this functionality right from the start, but Canon chose to "cripple" the camera for some obscure and probably financial reason; and
  • I'd have serious doubts about ever using Canon products again.

But, hey, that's just silly old me!  ;)

Are you being serious? I mean, if this is what gets you to jump ship, then you might as well jump ship now. When the 1D X and 5D III reached the final stages of testing (i.e. pre-release field testing, which was at least six months before their announcements), 4k playback in consumer devices was just a distant blip on the radar. There were only a couple high end 4k TVs, and they cost between $60,000 and $80,000. There was pretty much no 4k content at all, bluray or othewise. There weren't even those interim upscaling players that Dilbert is such a big fan of.

So, your saying that because Canon was not EXCEPTIONALLY EARLY to the 4k game, so early in fact that they might have had a grand total of 10 consumers who would have benefited from their addition of full 4k recording to their new cameras, your going to head STRAIT for the same, tired old "Canon is holding back and screwing over their customers!" and "I'm gonna leave them forever!" arguments? Seriously?

Or are you just playing one of your inane games where you pretend to play some role, without indicating as much, and expect abstract readers on the internet to "sense" that your being "sarcastic"?
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jrista

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #326 on: February 20, 2014, 12:44:07 PM »
Hey, I quoted plenty of facts above in URLs.

Yes, but apparently you failed to verify the information (which I have done on rare occasions, but I have the decency to own up to my mistake and apologize for it), and that's assuming you even read the pages to which you linked.  There is a lot of misinformation on the Internet, and it's easy to find a URL to show pretty much anything you want.

Actually it is pretty hard to find a definitive answer on the PS4 and 4K to the point where you could probably argue either way.

And you're singling out one in the face of many others being spot on.

Um, you called me out for supposedly calling Sony liars (which I never did) and called me a Luddite (which I'm not) because you thought something Sony said was correct when it was not. When, in fact, I WAS correct in my belief that Sony did not add 4k support to the PS4.

I mean, are you SERIOUS? Your a raging hypocrite man. RAGING.

So if you want to put your head in the sand and pay attention to the one that is questionable (and by questionable I mean it is damn hard to get a definitive answer either way on the PS4 which is to say it is not possible to say yes or no with any authority) whilst ignoring all of those that are accurate and verifiable, be my guest... but the world is moving forward and the next train stop is 4k, with or without you and jrista.

The only one with his head in the sand here is you. Very hypocritical sand, I might add. And it is easy to say that the PS4 does NOT have 4k playback. If it did, that information would be EASY to find! It would be a HUGE selling point! Sony wouldn't hide that!
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #327 on: February 20, 2014, 12:45:07 PM »
Must be nice to be a hypocrite and not give a damn, Dilbert. You have no credibility. You have no respect.

You don't know that...he may be held in highly respected esteem by his fellow DRones and trolls.  Naah, probably not - even most of those folks usually have their facts right, even if they grossly misinterpret or distort the implications of those facts (something dilbert also manages to do, whether his facts are correct or not).    :P
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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #327 on: February 20, 2014, 12:45:07 PM »

dilbert

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #328 on: February 20, 2014, 03:48:19 PM »
...
Um, first off, PS4 isn't 4k capable. Both Microsoft and Sony have been rumored to be investigating support, but neither have 4k support yet. If 4k was as close as you say, they would have both been released with 4k OOTB.


Sony talking about 4K support in the PS4:
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gamesgear/ps4-can-handle-4k-output-but-not-for-games-50010491/

... so it will play 4K content on the PS4. No support for 4K games, but that's different from 4K movies/video.


Are you sure that is 4k BluRay playback? Or is it just high resolution online video playback (which is certainly a step in the right direction).


Bury your head in the sand all you want. This is Sony saying that their equipment will playback 4k movies and you're saying that Sony is wrong? Usually everyone sort of agrees with what the vendor says their equipment is capable of but of you want to say "No, Sony is telling a lie, it won't do that" then by all means, deny it all you want. The rest of the world has and is moving on. The 20th century is back there somewhere behind us, maybe you'll feel more comfortable there? I mean there is no point responding to anything else you say if you're going to deny what the manufacturer is saying about the capabilities of their own equipment. It would be like you saying "No, Canon's 5D Mark III doesn't do 22MP, it really only does 11MP." You lose.

If you want to be a luddite then by all means go and buy yourself a film camera and we'll get off your lawn. But the digital and IT space moves quickly and if you can't keep up (or don't want to keep up) then fine but don't insist that everyone else has to move as slowly as you do.

If you can't adapt to change then you're already prehistoric. This is the 21st century AD, not the 1st AD.


Aye, it says "movies". To my knowledge, the word "movies" is not a synonym for "bluray".


For the general public, bluray implies movie and that's what you care about right? They're not going to associate bluray with audio products (for example.)

Quote
but it doesn't confirm support for the only true source of ultra high definition video content: 100Gb 4k BluRay Disk playback.


So let me get this straight, you're saying that the only valid source of 4k video is a 100gb 4k BluRay disk? Are you serious?

Quote
I never said Sony lies. Its just that their verbiage seems unclear to me.


Above you pretty clearly say that the PS4 is not 4k capable which would kind go against any noises that Sony have made against it being so or even potentially being so.


Quote
... I now the XBox One supports ultra high def content from online sources, but again that's a little different (although certainly a step in the right direction.)


From your posting above:
the only true source of ultra high definition video content: 100Gb 4k BluRay Disk playback.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 04:05:15 PM by dilbert »

dilbert

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #329 on: February 20, 2014, 03:53:09 PM »
So you're saying I should apologise for a vendor misleading the public on something? I think you're pointing your stick at the wrong person, buddy.

Even if that is the case, it would just mean that Sony missed the boat on 4k. Why? Because they've been talking up the capabilities of their equipment, meaning that is where they want to be, not stuck with 1080p.

Ah! So, I WAS right? Hmm, and...what did I say? Oh, right...that YOU wouldn't MAN UP and admit YOUR faults. Um...see above. Nuff said.

Must be nice to be a hypocrite and not give a damn, Dilbert. You have no credibility. You have no respect.

Yup, I really don't give a damn.

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #329 on: February 20, 2014, 03:53:09 PM »