August 22, 2014, 09:45:28 PM

Author Topic: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?  (Read 28909 times)

mkabi

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #375 on: February 27, 2014, 11:41:16 AM »
Lets decide by seeing 4K video now: Blackmagic Production Camera 4K first footage ( processed )

And, lets compare it to 2.5K video: 2.5K Raw Video - Test Crop Mode 5x - Canon 7D with Magic Lantern (Pelican's nightly build) on Vimeo

The first one (4K) is from a blackmagic camera, the second one is from a hacked 7D (a la Magic Lantern).

Personally, I'm blown away by the resolution of the 2.5K video. I think the compression by youtube f*&^%s the 4K video.

The 4k version looks nice on my 1920x1200 screen, but it took forever just to download 30 seconds of it (I don't have fiber optic connection like the rest of you do).

It takes forever for me too, and although I dont' have the same resolution as you.... I have to say that it looked worse or about the same as 1080p to me.

Have you seen the 2.5K video? Which is better? The 4K video or the 2.5K video?
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Don Haines

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #376 on: February 27, 2014, 12:55:09 PM »
55" 4K TV at "The Source" for $1299.....I get the feeling that this is the year that 4K goes mainstream....

Blu-ray content is starting to show up, a cell phone that shoots it has been anounced, it's coming.......
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jrista

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #377 on: February 27, 2014, 02:19:38 PM »
There is no way the 5D III is being replaced this year. Not a chance. It's a SUPERB camera, and the 5D II lasted closer to four years than three. I don't expect to even see CR2 rumors for the 5D IV until next year, and I don't expect it to hit the streets until the end of 2015/early 2016.

We will see, but no way can I see them waiting until 2016 to replace the 5D3!! And surely some sort of 5D3+ at the very least has got to be arriving late 2014 or early 2015.

Why, though? And what would be upgraded? I mean, if were JUST talking DR, then I really don't see it happening. I understand that DR is important, but it simply doesn't seem logical for Canon to release the 5D IV with the same specs as the 5D III, with the exception of a newer sensor (assuming they even have the DR stuff figured out...Canon is practically non-existent in the world of sensor patents, a world I check up on regularly.)

I am honestly curious...is it just that people expect Canon to release the 5D IV because its "time" to release the 5D IV? Or do people honestly think that the 5D III is overall (not just sensor, but other features) in dire need of an upgrade? The 5D II definitely felt long in the tooth when the 5D III came along. But the 5D III really doesn't feel that way. I don't hear anyone complaining about it, and the only thing anyone really ever asks for is more DR.

Personally, I don't think Canon will be sticking to any kind of timetable here. I mean, the 5D III will only be two years old come mid-March this year. It'll only be three years old by March next year, and at the earliest, I can't see Canon announcing a replacement until Summer 2015, with availability a couple/few months later at the very earliest...and that still feels too early.

I would certainly understand a firmware update late 2014/early 2015, though. Especially with video features.
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Don Haines

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #378 on: February 27, 2014, 02:59:53 PM »
There is no way the 5D III is being replaced this year. Not a chance. It's a SUPERB camera, and the 5D II lasted closer to four years than three. I don't expect to even see CR2 rumors for the 5D IV until next year, and I don't expect it to hit the streets until the end of 2015/early 2016.

We will see, but no way can I see them waiting until 2016 to replace the 5D3!! And surely some sort of 5D3+ at the very least has got to be arriving late 2014 or early 2015.

Why, though? And what would be upgraded? I mean, if were JUST talking DR, then I really don't see it happening. I understand that DR is important, but it simply doesn't seem logical for Canon to release the 5D IV with the same specs as the 5D III, with the exception of a newer sensor (assuming they even have the DR stuff figured out...Canon is practically non-existent in the world of sensor patents, a world I check up on regularly.)

I am honestly curious...is it just that people expect Canon to release the 5D IV because its "time" to release the 5D IV? Or do people honestly think that the 5D III is overall (not just sensor, but other features) in dire need of an upgrade? The 5D II definitely felt long in the tooth when the 5D III came along. But the 5D III really doesn't feel that way. I don't hear anyone complaining about it, and the only thing anyone really ever asks for is more DR.

Personally, I don't think Canon will be sticking to any kind of timetable here. I mean, the 5D III will only be two years old come mid-March this year. It'll only be three years old by March next year, and at the earliest, I can't see Canon announcing a replacement until Summer 2015, with availability a couple/few months later at the very earliest...and that still feels too early.

I would certainly understand a firmware update late 2014/early 2015, though. Especially with video features.
They will update it when they update it :)
They have probably been working on the update for at least two years by now, and nobody (probably including Canon) knows when it will be ready. The lower end cameras (Rebels and powershots) get updated at regular intervals because thier sales are hype and marketing based.... newer models sell better than old.

The higher end models are updated for technical reasons. When there is enough technological improvement, out comes a new model. The Key is, "enough" technical improvement... and we don't know what the threshold is and we do not know what Canon's plans are.

If I were to bet, I would say that a 5D4 would have WiFi, touchscreen, a FF dual pixel sensor, and would use a faster storage medium.. and these things add up to a worthy upgrade bur also take time to develop... they are not going to rush to market with a half-baked camera... they will wait until it is solid and reliable. We are not even hearing rumours of prototypes yet... it will be a while.
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jrista

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #379 on: February 27, 2014, 03:59:26 PM »
There is no way the 5D III is being replaced this year. Not a chance. It's a SUPERB camera, and the 5D II lasted closer to four years than three. I don't expect to even see CR2 rumors for the 5D IV until next year, and I don't expect it to hit the streets until the end of 2015/early 2016.

We will see, but no way can I see them waiting until 2016 to replace the 5D3!! And surely some sort of 5D3+ at the very least has got to be arriving late 2014 or early 2015.

Why, though? And what would be upgraded? I mean, if were JUST talking DR, then I really don't see it happening. I understand that DR is important, but it simply doesn't seem logical for Canon to release the 5D IV with the same specs as the 5D III, with the exception of a newer sensor (assuming they even have the DR stuff figured out...Canon is practically non-existent in the world of sensor patents, a world I check up on regularly.)

I am honestly curious...is it just that people expect Canon to release the 5D IV because its "time" to release the 5D IV? Or do people honestly think that the 5D III is overall (not just sensor, but other features) in dire need of an upgrade? The 5D II definitely felt long in the tooth when the 5D III came along. But the 5D III really doesn't feel that way. I don't hear anyone complaining about it, and the only thing anyone really ever asks for is more DR.

Personally, I don't think Canon will be sticking to any kind of timetable here. I mean, the 5D III will only be two years old come mid-March this year. It'll only be three years old by March next year, and at the earliest, I can't see Canon announcing a replacement until Summer 2015, with availability a couple/few months later at the very earliest...and that still feels too early.

I would certainly understand a firmware update late 2014/early 2015, though. Especially with video features.
They will update it when they update it :)
They have probably been working on the update for at least two years by now, and nobody (probably including Canon) knows when it will be ready. The lower end cameras (Rebels and powershots) get updated at regular intervals because thier sales are hype and marketing based.... newer models sell better than old.

The higher end models are updated for technical reasons. When there is enough technological improvement, out comes a new model. The Key is, "enough" technical improvement... and we don't know what the threshold is and we do not know what Canon's plans are.

If I were to bet, I would say that a 5D4 would have WiFi, touchscreen, a FF dual pixel sensor, and would use a faster storage medium.. and these things add up to a worthy upgrade bur also take time to develop... they are not going to rush to market with a half-baked camera... they will wait until it is solid and reliable. We are not even hearing rumours of prototypes yet... it will be a while.

Now your last paragraph sounds more like an upgrade! I'd expect at least all of that. Perhaps an improvement in metering as well (would be nice to see the 1D X meter filter down to the 5D line.) I agree, Canon has probably been working on the 5D IV since the 5D III release...but I still think a replacement is a ways away.

Regarding WiFi, if they do include that, I really hope it works better than I've heard the 6D works...which seems to have a very spotty connection. I'd personally rather have GPS than WiFi...if I need to tether the camera, I'll happily use a nice, long ethernet cable...I have some REALLLY LOOOONG ones. :P
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Tugela

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #380 on: February 27, 2014, 04:33:01 PM »
You've switched to an entirely different market now. Camcorders ARE VIDEO DEVICES. The expectation for a video device in a video market getting 4k capability is far higher than the expectation for photography devices in a photography market that happen to also have video features to get 4k capabilities. DSLRs are still first and foremost still photography devices. There may be some broader market concerns, but to say that all Canon DSLRs should suddenly get 4k capabilities because Canon's camcorders did? Well, that is applying FAR too much weight to the video capabilities of Canon's photography devices. It's an added bonus, but the very vast majority of DSLR users use their cameras for photography. There are some specific models that have a history of use as low-end cinematography equipment, namely the 5D II and III, but that is kind of a niche use, and the 5D II was somewhat unique in that it brought a FF sensor capable of shooting video with high quality lenses to a market segment that was desperate for such an offering. Today, that isn't so much the case, there is heavy competition in the midrange 2k and 4k cinema market, and prices are becoming more and more reasonable.

As for what a "reasonable" expectation is, it really depends. What did Canon announce when they released the G30? From what I've read, the G20 and G30 are pretty different cameras. The former has a higher resolution sensor, the latter has twice the zoom range on the lens. They definitely don't sound like the same camera to me, so the fact that they both exist in the market at the same time indicates the G30 is not so much a successor as an alternative.

Canon have already said that they are going to place heavy emphasis on video. Do you think they are going to do an about face on that now?

Your impressions of the G30 relative to the G20 are incorrect. The G30 is identical to the HA20/25, but without the hand grip and (in the case of the HA25) the additional interface ports. It is more advanced than the G20 in just about every way. It has a better lens, improved light sensitivity, higher resolution on the sensor, it uses the DIGIC DV IV processor rather than the older DV III processor in the G20, it shoots 60p natively with higher bit rates. If the plan was to release the G30 when it was released, then it made no sense to release the G20 mere months earlier. It is obviously a successor to the G20, and it would have made marketing sense to release it a year later as a consumer variant of the HA20/25. The HA20 being released at the same time as the HA25 is also odd, since they are very similar. You would have thought that they would do the HA20 first, and then the HA25 a year or so later as an incremental upgrade with more bells and whistles. So the release of all that at the same time in mid 2013 was very odd (and seriously annoyed more than a few people who had just bought the then new G20).

Canon are not stupid, so there was clearly a marketing shift that occurred in the first half of 2013, and IMO that was a refocus on getting 4K developed ASAP. The G30 was essentially dumped on the market (along with the HA25) to recover the development investment.

While camcorders are a different market than SLRs, what was happening to them reflects an underlying shift that is going on in Canon, and that shift is going to translate into the DSLR market as well.

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #381 on: February 27, 2014, 05:03:24 PM »
You've switched to an entirely different market now. Camcorders ARE VIDEO DEVICES. The expectation for a video device in a video market getting 4k capability is far higher than the expectation for photography devices in a photography market that happen to also have video features to get 4k capabilities. DSLRs are still first and foremost still photography devices. There may be some broader market concerns, but to say that all Canon DSLRs should suddenly get 4k capabilities because Canon's camcorders did? Well, that is applying FAR too much weight to the video capabilities of Canon's photography devices. It's an added bonus, but the very vast majority of DSLR users use their cameras for photography. There are some specific models that have a history of use as low-end cinematography equipment, namely the 5D II and III, but that is kind of a niche use, and the 5D II was somewhat unique in that it brought a FF sensor capable of shooting video with high quality lenses to a market segment that was desperate for such an offering. Today, that isn't so much the case, there is heavy competition in the midrange 2k and 4k cinema market, and prices are becoming more and more reasonable.

As for what a "reasonable" expectation is, it really depends. What did Canon announce when they released the G30? From what I've read, the G20 and G30 are pretty different cameras. The former has a higher resolution sensor, the latter has twice the zoom range on the lens. They definitely don't sound like the same camera to me, so the fact that they both exist in the market at the same time indicates the G30 is not so much a successor as an alternative.

Canon have already said that they are going to place heavy emphasis on video. Do you think they are going to do an about face on that now?

Your impressions of the G30 relative to the G20 are incorrect. The G30 is identical to the HA20/25, but without the hand grip and (in the case of the HA25) the additional interface ports. It is more advanced than the G20 in just about every way. It has a better lens, improved light sensitivity, higher resolution on the sensor, it uses the DIGIC DV IV processor rather than the older DV III processor in the G20, it shoots 60p natively with higher bit rates. If the plan was to release the G30 when it was released, then it made no sense to release the G20 mere months earlier. It is obviously a successor to the G20, and it would have made marketing sense to release it a year later as a consumer variant of the HA20/25. The HA20 being released at the same time as the HA25 is also odd, since they are very similar. You would have thought that they would do the HA20 first, and then the HA25 a year or so later as an incremental upgrade with more bells and whistles. So the release of all that at the same time in mid 2013 was very odd (and seriously annoyed more than a few people who had just bought the then new G20).

Canon are not stupid, so there was clearly a marketing shift that occurred in the first half of 2013, and IMO that was a refocus on getting 4K developed ASAP. The G30 was essentially dumped on the market (along with the HA25) to recover the development investment.

While camcorders are a different market than SLRs, what was happening to them reflects an underlying shift that is going on in Canon, and that shift is going to translate into the DSLR market as well.

I think your conflating "successor" with "higher end". I do not believe my impressions are wrong, the G20 is a lower end model, the G30 is a higher end model. That's the only logical conclusion, given the FACTS about their release dates. Simple as that.

As for the HA20/25, what camera is that? It certainly doesn't seem to come up on any searches, either in google/bing or on Canon's site. (The only thing that did come up on a search was a lens called HA20). There is an XA20 and XA25, which seem to populate a higher bracket of HD camcorders. Again, though, the number seems to indicate the level within that bracket, not different iterations of the same thing.

As for 4k, that doesn't seem to be mentioned in any of Canon's current camcorder offerings. As far as I can tell, Canon bringing 4k to their camcorder line is 100% pure speculation, not even based on rumor. The only 4k devices from Canon that I can find are their Cinema EOS line, that's it.

I mean, unless there is some hidden site somewhere that has concrete information about Canon's 4k plans, at the moment, the only facts we have regarding that is the fact that it's Cinema EOS...and JUST Cinema EOS. Until that actually changes, I see no reason to assume Canon has big plans to suddenly drop 4k functionality and features into all of their devices.
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Tugela

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #382 on: February 27, 2014, 05:13:46 PM »
Yup, XA, not HA.

They are the same cameras as the G30 however, same lens, same sensor, same body, same processor, they even have same firmware.

The only difference is the XA models come with a handle, and in the case of the XA25, additional output interfaces.

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #383 on: February 27, 2014, 05:22:12 PM »
As for 4k, that doesn't seem to be mentioned in any of Canon's current camcorder offerings. As far as I can tell, Canon bringing 4k to their camcorder line is 100% pure speculation, not even based on rumor. The only 4k devices from Canon that I can find are their Cinema EOS line, that's it.

I mean, unless there is some hidden site somewhere that has concrete information about Canon's 4k plans, at the moment, the only facts we have regarding that is the fact that it's Cinema EOS...and JUST Cinema EOS. Until that actually changes, I see no reason to assume Canon has big plans to suddenly drop 4k functionality and features into all of their devices.

Which is my point. Something happened in 2013 that resulted in all of the high end models that we would normally see being released staggered over a number of years being released all at once. They were dumped on the market, and IMO that was to make room for something new in 2014. The only new thing expected for 2014 is 4K, so, reasonably, that is what we will see.

Look at the G30 compared to Sony's AX100. Very similar cameras in terms of price, size, general form and target users, but with one major difference: 4K. How many G30s (or XA20/25s for that matter) do you expect Canon to sell when the AX100 appears in the stores in a few weeks? Probably zero. Why would any sensible informed person buy one when there is a far superior Sony product for the same price? Canon are well aware of this, so there will be something from them this year as well in that arena.

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« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 05:28:05 PM by Lightmaster »

jrista

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #385 on: February 27, 2014, 06:09:56 PM »
As for 4k, that doesn't seem to be mentioned in any of Canon's current camcorder offerings. As far as I can tell, Canon bringing 4k to their camcorder line is 100% pure speculation, not even based on rumor. The only 4k devices from Canon that I can find are their Cinema EOS line, that's it.

I mean, unless there is some hidden site somewhere that has concrete information about Canon's 4k plans, at the moment, the only facts we have regarding that is the fact that it's Cinema EOS...and JUST Cinema EOS. Until that actually changes, I see no reason to assume Canon has big plans to suddenly drop 4k functionality and features into all of their devices.

Which is my point. Something happened in 2013 that resulted in all of the high end models that we would normally see being released staggered over a number of years being released all at once. They were dumped on the market, and IMO that was to make room for something new in 2014. The only new thing expected for 2014 is 4K, so, reasonably, that is what we will see.

Look at the G30 compared to Sony's AX100. Very similar cameras in terms of price, size, general form and target users, but with one major difference: 4K. How many G30s (or XA20/25s for that matter) do you expect Canon to sell when the AX100 appears in the stores in a few weeks? Probably zero. Why would any sensible informed person buy one when there is a far superior Sony product for the same price? Canon are well aware of this, so there will be something from them this year as well in that arena.

I honestly don't expect Canon's sales to change much. If there is anything Canon does well, it's build brand loyalty and sell their products. Canon has a ton of products on the market that are supposedly technologically inferior to the competitions, and yet they outsell the competition many times over.

Again, though...I wouldn't be surprised if Canon put 4k into their VIDEO products. That was never the point of the earlier debate in this thread, however. The point of the debate was that someone indicated Canon was on the verge of putting full blown 4k support in ALL of their DSLR products, starting with cameras that were just released. THAT is something I strongly dispute. What Canon does with camcorders really has nothing to do with what they plan to do with DSLRs. No doubt that video is an important feature of their DSLRs now, but that doesn't mean 4k video is suddenly going to show up in everything from top to bottom, high and and low end, starting now.
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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #386 on: February 27, 2014, 07:56:55 PM »
The video market is in the process of being merged with the still market however. That started with products like the 5D series, and now camcorder options are becoming fewer and fewer as the need for a specialist camera like that declines.

The market progression will be towards systems like the 70D. Cameras like the 70D and the GH3 were the first real steps towards systems dedicated to holistic image capture rather than the old fashioned specialists. I doubt that any high end camera released from now on from Canon/Sony/Panasonic is going to be a specialist, they will have to be able to perform both functions at the highest level. Obviously Nikon are not seeing it that way, based on their latest camera, they are going the way of dodo. Of all of the major camera companies, they are the ones who really don't get it (either that, or they lack the resources to adjust to the new reality).

New versions of the 5D, 6D and 7D will be expected to reflect the state of the art, and in the context of their video capabilities that will mean 4K.

The 7D was originally rumoured to be released in 2013, but it did not show up. Instead, the 70D was released. IMO there was a management decision based on how the overall market was developing that resulted in the insides of the original 7D2 prototypes being repackaged as the 70D, and the 7D2 went back into development to capture the sort of capabilities that would allow it to be competitive through 2017. If it did not have 4K capabilities it would be obsolete as far as video is concerned long before then.

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #387 on: February 27, 2014, 10:30:41 PM »
Lets decide by seeing 4K video now: Blackmagic Production Camera 4K first footage ( processed )

And, lets compare it to 2.5K video: 2.5K Raw Video - Test Crop Mode 5x - Canon 7D with Magic Lantern (Pelican's nightly build) on Vimeo

The first one (4K) is from a blackmagic camera, the second one is from a hacked 7D (a la Magic Lantern).

Personally, I'm blown away by the resolution of the 2.5K video. I think the compression by youtube f*&^%s the 4K video.

The 4k version looks nice on my 1920x1200 screen, but it took forever just to download 30 seconds of it (I don't have fiber optic connection like the rest of you do).

It takes forever for me too, and although I dont' have the same resolution as you.... I have to say that it looked worse or about the same as 1080p to me.

Have you seen the 2.5K video? Which is better? The 4K video or the 2.5K video?

I will try to compare them. 

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #388 on: February 27, 2014, 10:44:19 PM »
The video market is in the process of being merged with the still market however. That started with products like the 5D series, and now camcorder options are becoming fewer and fewer as the need for a specialist camera like that declines.

The market progression will be towards systems like the 70D. Cameras like the 70D and the GH3 were the first real steps towards systems dedicated to holistic image capture rather than the old fashioned specialists. I doubt that any high end camera released from now on from Canon/Sony/Panasonic is going to be a specialist, they will have to be able to perform both functions at the highest level. Obviously Nikon are not seeing it that way, based on their latest camera, they are going the way of dodo. Of all of the major camera companies, they are the ones who really don't get it (either that, or they lack the resources to adjust to the new reality).

New versions of the 5D, 6D and 7D will be expected to reflect the state of the art, and in the context of their video capabilities that will mean 4K.

The 7D was originally rumoured to be released in 2013, but it did not show up. Instead, the 70D was released. IMO there was a management decision based on how the overall market was developing that resulted in the insides of the original 7D2 prototypes being repackaged as the 70D, and the 7D2 went back into development to capture the sort of capabilities that would allow it to be competitive through 2017. If it did not have 4K capabilities it would be obsolete as far as video is concerned long before then.

Your logic makes sense, but that said...it kind of assumes 4K content is going to be widely used and distributed by everyone very soon.  I'm not sure it works like that.  Look at what happened to "3D".  Are we all having conference calls via our smartphones in 3D now?  Are we all taking stills images in "3D" now? 

I appreciate the higher quality 4K allows, don't get me wrong.  It's lovely to watch.  However, nobody with a 50 or 60 inch tv can even see all the detail if they sit farther away than 6 or 7 feet.  Last time I checked, most people have their tv in a living room or family room where it sits on one wall, they sit near or against the other, and the young kids sit (or play) on the floor in the middle.

So I kind of see "consumer demand" for 4K content, falling very flat within 2 years after it becomes mainstream.  Why?  Well, because history has shown that people want convenient low quality video to play on smartphones (if at all...they mostly like to play games)...rather than high quality video that can only be appreciated on a large screen.  Also consider just how much more memory and bandwidth it consumes.

Is there a coming revolution where everyone is going to buy a $1000+ "prosumer" DSLR (where before they only bought a consumer video camera), just to shoot a few home videos, and then a 50 inch 4k monitor to watch it on?  And that's going to be a boon to the electronics industry?  I think not...

Sure, the next gen xD DSLR's might feature 4K capability.  But is Canon going to rush them to market just because Sony and Panasonic bring out some compact cameras that can do it?

What will Black Magic's reply to all this be?  6k or 8k at $4k?  Do you know how large of a screen you would need to make use of that resolution?  How about 160 inches diagonal...
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 10:50:50 PM by CarlTN »

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #389 on: February 28, 2014, 01:32:32 AM »
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I am also not sure all that many people truly understand the value of having 4k video, especially when the output is still going to be 2k or 1k for years to come. Those who do, probably also understand the value of having a more dedicated video system, like Cinema EOS.

You don't need Cinema EOS to understand the value in shooting 4K now. Shooting 4K now allows you to deliver 1080p video now and in n years time, remaster your video and all of a sudden you can offer people 4K content in addition to 1080p content.

There you go again. You COMPLETELY INVERTED my statement. I never said you needed Cinema EOS to understand the value of shooting 4k. I said if you understood the value of 4k, you would have a better appreciation for Cinema EOS. You LITERALLY INVERTED my statement. Good god..when do you stop twisting words and obfuscating facts, man!

No but you implied that Cinema EOS is needed for 4k.

No. I said that a full understanding of 4k implies the need for something better, like Cinema EOS, to fully take advantage of it.

True to a large extent. But 1dc works perfect within its limitations and is great in real cramped situations or for rigging.