August 22, 2014, 07:39:02 PM

Author Topic: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?  (Read 28905 times)

dilbert

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #330 on: February 20, 2014, 04:02:34 PM »
Must be nice to be a hypocrite and not give a damn, Dilbert. You have no credibility. You have no respect.

You don't know that...he may be held in highly respected esteem by his fellow DRones and trolls.  Naah, probably not - even most of those folks usually have their facts right, even if they grossly misinterpret or distort the implications of those facts (something dilbert also manages to do, whether his facts are correct or not).    :P

Look, I confirmed it for him and said that I don't give a damn. Does that make it any easier for you?

I look at all the facts and see them pointing in a direction that says 4k will become common place very soon - as in 2H2014 and definitely by CY2015. Other people (such as yourself) read the tea leaves differently.

Niki

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #331 on: February 20, 2014, 05:10:46 PM »
Panasonic have announced a 4k GH4, which kind of demotes any camera only doing 1080p to the "also ran" category. Sure it is only a small sensor, but if 4k is more important than FF DOF artiness then the GH4 would seem to be a good candidate.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/02/07/panasonic-announces-lumix-dmc-gh4-with-4k-video-support?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=news-list&utm_medium=text&ref=title_0_8


Is Panasonic hoping that this will push the sales of (their)  4k TVs?




Will Canon hold out on the DSLRs doing 4k to protect the Cinema EOS line or will they hope that they can maintain the premiums for those cameras based on features that aren't in DSLRs, such as SDI out? Oh, oops, Panasonic's got a base for the GH4 with SDI out ... someone is innovating!

p.s. why didn't this make it to Canon rumors front page? Surely this is just as significant as the Sony A7s or has someone decided not to put other manufacturers on there now?


yes

JohnDizzo15

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #332 on: February 20, 2014, 06:29:07 PM »
I think we've all pretty much established what our opinions are on the matter.

The question I was left thinking about as a result though is where Canon would actually do it if we were working on the assumption that it would happen this year. These were just thoughts that crossed my mind. Not that I need to say it, but feel free to correct me in my thinking where it is flawed which I'm sure it is.

1Dx - Too early for model update?
5D3 - Also too soon for an update?
Would Canon also risk cannibalizing the Cinema bodies by putting it in the 1 and 5D lines?
6D - Too low on the totem pole + cannibalization factor?
70D - Just came out, too soon for refresh?
Rebels - Too low on the totem pole + risk of cannibalizing the rest of the lineup if omitted from those bodies?
7DII - This is the only place I could feasibly see it happening. Wondering how much that would raise the starting price point. Also, how would it be packaged so as to not cannibalize the cinema lines? Max 24 FPS for 4k? Dual pixel live view included/excluded?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 06:32:33 PM by JohnDizzo15 »

spturtle

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #333 on: February 20, 2014, 07:56:13 PM »
7DII - This is the only place I could feasibly see it happening. Wondering how much that would raise the starting price point. Also, how would it be packaged so as to not cannibalize the cinema lines? Max 24 FPS for 4k? Dual pixel live view included/excluded?

It doesn't have to raise the starting price point much if some mobile phones (costing about $650) can already record 4k video. But the sensor needs to support it while there are already other challenges for this hypothetical sensor like less noise and possibly a higher dynamic range ::). A high still picture frame rate on the other hand may actually allow 4k video.  Say the 7D2 gets a 22Mpixel sensor and takes pictures at 10fps, that would be a pixel rate of 220Mpixel/s, while UHD video needs ~8Mpixel @ 30fps which translates to a 249Mpixel/s data rate. I have no idea if these numbers are at all related, though.  ;D

The limitations of the 7D2 compared to the 1D C would be: no All-I compression, only 30min. in a single clip, more noise at higher ISO values. An advantage of a 7D2 would be that its APS-C sensor is approximately the same width as "Super 35" which is used in the other cinema cameras, so the FOV is the same.

JohnDizzo15

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #334 on: February 20, 2014, 07:58:44 PM »
The issue at hand though is how Canon would fit it into their framework price point wise. I don't see how they could keep it at 1700.

jrista

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #335 on: February 20, 2014, 08:52:42 PM »
Must be nice to be a hypocrite and not give a damn, Dilbert. You have no credibility. You have no respect.

You don't know that...he may be held in highly respected esteem by his fellow DRones and trolls.  Naah, probably not - even most of those folks usually have their facts right, even if they grossly misinterpret or distort the implications of those facts (something dilbert also manages to do, whether his facts are correct or not).    :P

Look, I confirmed it for him and said that I don't give a damn. Does that make it any easier for you?

I look at all the facts and see them pointing in a direction that says 4k will become common place very soon - as in 2H2014 and definitely by CY2015. Other people (such as yourself) read the tea leaves differently.

It's not about reading the tea leaves. There is this thing called humility. You seem to lack it. I even stated ahead of time, even though I was correct in the first place, that I would happily admit if I was wrong if there was evidence that the PS4 already supported 4k BluRay. That, that humility...you haven't exhibited one little iota of it.

All I'm saying, is after you call someone out and namecall as you did with me, it only serves yourself if you fess up to your mistake. Instead, your being belligerent about it, which really doesn't help you one bit.

Anyway, I'm honestly not hurt by it...just, well, I guess I hated having you confirm my opinion of you...
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dilbert

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #336 on: February 21, 2014, 01:09:26 AM »
I think we've all pretty much established what our opinions are on the matter.

The question I was left thinking about as a result though is where Canon would actually do it if we were working on the assumption that it would happen this year. These were just thoughts that crossed my mind. Not that I need to say it, but feel free to correct me in my thinking where it is flawed which I'm sure it is.

1Dx - Too early for model update?
5D3 - Also too soon for an update?
Would Canon also risk cannibalizing the Cinema bodies by putting it in the 1 and 5D lines?
6D - Too low on the totem pole + cannibalization factor?

But when the next refresh of each of the above comes out, will it be 4k capable or not?
Will Canon risk cannibalizing the 1DC or just ship DSLRs that are less capable and ultimately less attractive?

Quote
70D - Just came out, too soon for refresh?
Rebels - Too low on the totem pole + risk of cannibalizing the rest of the lineup if omitted from those bodies?

Just wrong timing for this camera to have 4k.

Quote
7DII - This is the only place I could feasibly see it happening. Wondering how much that would raise the starting price point. Also, how would it be packaged so as to not cannibalize the cinema lines? Max 24 FPS for 4k? Dual pixel live view included/excluded?

Yes, all very interesting questions! 7DII is the first Canon DSLR where I might expect to see a 4k capable package. But will Canon do it? Do they have the balls for it?

dilbert

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #337 on: February 21, 2014, 01:11:03 AM »
Must be nice to be a hypocrite and not give a damn, Dilbert. You have no credibility. You have no respect.

You don't know that...he may be held in highly respected esteem by his fellow DRones and trolls.  Naah, probably not - even most of those folks usually have their facts right, even if they grossly misinterpret or distort the implications of those facts (something dilbert also manages to do, whether his facts are correct or not).    :P

Look, I confirmed it for him and said that I don't give a damn. Does that make it any easier for you?

I look at all the facts and see them pointing in a direction that says 4k will become common place very soon - as in 2H2014 and definitely by CY2015. Other people (such as yourself) read the tea leaves differently.

It's not about reading the tea leaves. There is this thing called humility. You seem to lack it. I even stated ahead of time, even though I was correct in the first place, that I would happily admit if I was wrong if there was evidence that the PS4 already supported 4k BluRay. That, that humility...you haven't exhibited one little iota of it.

The problem is there isn't any evidence one way or the other. Just Sony being wishy-washy which is just crappy for everyone.

Quote
Anyway, I'm honestly not hurt by it...just, well, I guess I hated having you confirm my opinion of you...

Just for the record, I really don't care what your opinion of me is.

jrista

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #338 on: February 21, 2014, 11:53:43 AM »
Must be nice to be a hypocrite and not give a damn, Dilbert. You have no credibility. You have no respect.

You don't know that...he may be held in highly respected esteem by his fellow DRones and trolls.  Naah, probably not - even most of those folks usually have their facts right, even if they grossly misinterpret or distort the implications of those facts (something dilbert also manages to do, whether his facts are correct or not).    :P

Look, I confirmed it for him and said that I don't give a damn. Does that make it any easier for you?

I look at all the facts and see them pointing in a direction that says 4k will become common place very soon - as in 2H2014 and definitely by CY2015. Other people (such as yourself) read the tea leaves differently.

It's not about reading the tea leaves. There is this thing called humility. You seem to lack it. I even stated ahead of time, even though I was correct in the first place, that I would happily admit if I was wrong if there was evidence that the PS4 already supported 4k BluRay. That, that humility...you haven't exhibited one little iota of it.

The problem is there isn't any evidence one way or the other. Just Sony being wishy-washy which is just crappy for everyone.

Again, there is ZERO evidence for the fact that the PS4 has 4k BluRay playback. That IS evidence for the fact that it does not. That isn't a feature Sony would be squirrely or wishy-washy or obfuscatory about. It would be a high end feature differentiating it from the XBox One, meaning more sales. There isn't any evidence fore it, meaning that in and of itself is evidence against it. The PS4 DOES NOT HAVE 4k BluRay playback. Simple as that. You can't argue your way around this one.
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spturtle

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #339 on: February 21, 2014, 12:32:17 PM »
4k BluRay playback

You forgot to take off your bluray fanboy hat. Everyone else understands UHD video support in current devices (2014) is about network streaming but for you that is somehow not good enough - did you post your comment on bluray disc to this forum?

jrista

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #340 on: February 21, 2014, 06:42:02 PM »
4k BluRay playback

You forgot to take off your bluray fanboy hat. Everyone else understands UHD video support in current devices (2014) is about network streaming but for you that is somehow not good enough - did you post your comment on bluray disc to this forum?

There isn't enough bandwidth to support 4k streaming such that it looks significantly better than 2k. I am an avid fan of NetFlix, for example, and their Super HD is good, but not great. But when you get right down to it, even 2k (1080p) is only rightly done off of a BluRay disc. You get the full uncompressed audio and exceptionally crisp, sharp picture. You don't get anything even remotely resembling that with streaming, even some of the higher quality streaming thats showing up online now.

Go to a consumer electronics show sometime, and have someone play you a full 4k BluRay video on an 80" TV, and tell me that "UHD" Streaming is even in the same league. It's marginally better than 2k, but no where near what you get from a disc. As I've mentioned, on multiple occasions, 4k streaming is a step in the right direction...but when it comes to the consumers who initially dive this kind of technology, the ones who actually spend the dough on those $40,000 TVs and $1000 BluRay players and the like...they aren't spending that kind of money to get marginally-better-than-2k quality. They are paying for FULL 4k Ultra HD BluRay playback on their GIGANTIC 80" screens, in a home so packed full of high end audio equipment it would make your ears melt and your soul cry (trust me...if you've ever heard a $100,000 audio system, especially the analog ones...it definitely jerks the soul-tears!)

Streaming...eh. Streamed content is already compressed so much we don't need new equipment for it, and technically speaking, downsampling a UHD stream to 2k for display on a 1080p TV or screen would actually improve the results...make things crisper and clearer. (Same deal as with UHD gaming...you don't actually play on a 4k screen...the entire point is to downsample from 3840x2160 to 1920x1080, because the downsampling process cleans up the whole image, makes it vastly superior to a native 1920x1080 signal.)
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RunAndGun

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #341 on: February 21, 2014, 07:21:55 PM »
I think everyone is getting worked up over this just a little too much.  These are FIRST and FOREMOST 'STILL' CAMERAS.  (Yes, the 5DII was a still camera that was a game changer in the "video world", but it was still a 'still' camera).  I'm not saying I don't want to see Canon, or anyone else, "not innovate", but seriously, some people are making a mountain out of a mole hill out of this.  I am heavily invested in Canon personally and professionally, between stills and video, to the tune of about $60k, at least, BUT even more in Panasonic.  Professionally, well over six figures, and honestly I couldn't care less about the GH4.  If it wasn't for this forum and one other that I frequent, I wouldn't even know it exists.  I would venture to say that a lot of the people that I work with don't know about it either.  On the pro side, people are just starting to figure out how to work with 4K-barely.  Unbelievably, there are still those that HD is a mystery to.  And it's more widespread than you would think.

I'm not saying I'm not interested in 4K, because I am.  And I doubt I will buy another professional (TV) camera that isn't 4K capable, even though it probably won't even be a selling point to my network clients for years down the road.  But if my next still camera doesn't offer it, I don't care.  Hell, I never shot a frame of video with either of my 5DII's and I've used my 5DIII for video ONCE.  And it wasn't even close to being used as a primary camera.  It was the fourth camera/reversal shot.

dilbert

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #342 on: February 21, 2014, 08:31:16 PM »
4k BluRay playback

You forgot to take off your bluray fanboy hat. Everyone else understands UHD video support in current devices (2014) is about network streaming but for you that is somehow not good enough - did you post your comment on bluray disc to this forum?

There isn't enough bandwidth to support 4k streaming such that it looks significantly better than 2k.

oops!

You better go tell Google that they have to stop supporting 4k content being uploaded and played on youtube!

spturtle

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #343 on: February 21, 2014, 09:14:59 PM »
There isn't enough bandwidth to support 4k streaming such that it looks significantly better than 2k. I am an avid fan of NetFlix, for example, and their Super HD is good, but not great. But when you get right down to it, even 2k (1080p) is only rightly done off of a BluRay disc. You get the full uncompressed audio and exceptionally crisp, sharp picture. You don't get anything even remotely resembling that with streaming, even some of the higher quality streaming thats showing up online now.

Netflix claims their UHD streams are 15.6Mbps HEVC/H.265 while the 1080p streams max out at 5.8Mbps AVC/H.264. Sure bluray video will likely look better in 2015 but those streams probably don't look so bad, depending on whether h.265 delivers on its promise of doubling the compression ratio at the same quality level as h.264. Anyway you don't get to decide for other people what is valid "4k" or UHD video and what isn't.

jrista

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #344 on: February 21, 2014, 10:43:57 PM »
There isn't enough bandwidth to support 4k streaming such that it looks significantly better than 2k. I am an avid fan of NetFlix, for example, and their Super HD is good, but not great. But when you get right down to it, even 2k (1080p) is only rightly done off of a BluRay disc. You get the full uncompressed audio and exceptionally crisp, sharp picture. You don't get anything even remotely resembling that with streaming, even some of the higher quality streaming thats showing up online now.

Netflix claims their UHD streams are 15.6Mbps HEVC/H.265 while the 1080p streams max out at 5.8Mbps AVC/H.264. Sure bluray video will likely look better in 2015 but those streams probably don't look so bad, depending on whether h.265 delivers on its promise of doubling the compression ratio at the same quality level as h.264. Anyway you don't get to decide for other people what is valid "4k" or UHD video and what isn't.

I'm not "deciding" anything. It's the type of market. When LCD screens came on the scenes so many years ago, I remember it took about four years for the dominant flatscreen tech, plasma and projection screens, to phase out. I'm expecting about two years for 4k, a 200% increase in adoption rate. It may indeed be less than that, but my point is that it hasn't happened already, which is what would drive a company like Canon to start putting full 4k recording technology in all of their DSLRs. The money that fuels the growth for a new technology like this comes from those few people who demand the absolute best quality possible. Not everyone spends $40k or $20k or even $10k on a TV. It's the videophiles and audiophiles who want true 4k video (not some extensively compressed stream that diminishes quality, but TRUE full resolution 4k, and for a full 2hr video, that can take as much as 200Gb or so).

Anyway, I certainly don't dictate anything. Neither do any of you. It's Canon who will decide, and I am simply betting that they don't jump on the 4k bandwagon for consumer-grade devices yet. They probably won't until next year at the earliest (and then only in the higher end models, likely as a firmware update for existing cameras), and I don't suspect we'll see 4k recording in "all" of their devices until some time after 2016.
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