December 18, 2014, 06:46:45 AM

Author Topic: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?  (Read 37827 times)

mkabi

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #345 on: February 22, 2014, 01:44:53 AM »
Lets decide by seeing 4K video now: Blackmagic Production Camera 4K first footage ( processed )

And, lets compare it to 2.5K video: 2.5K Raw Video - Test Crop Mode 5x - Canon 7D with Magic Lantern (Pelican's nightly build) on Vimeo

The first one (4K) is from a blackmagic camera, the second one is from a hacked 7D (a la Magic Lantern).

Personally, I'm blown away by the resolution of the 2.5K video. I think the compression by youtube f*&^%s the 4K video.
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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #345 on: February 22, 2014, 01:44:53 AM »

mkabi

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #346 on: February 22, 2014, 01:52:45 AM »
Oh, BTW, you will need to go into youtube and manually change the resolution to 4K (click the link).
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dilbert

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #347 on: February 23, 2014, 12:55:08 PM »

dilbert

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #348 on: February 23, 2014, 12:59:34 PM »
...
Anyway, I certainly don't dictate anything. Neither do any of you. It's Canon who will decide, and I am simply betting that they don't jump on the 4k bandwagon for consumer-grade devices yet. They probably won't until next year at the earliest (and then only in the higher end models, likely as a firmware update for existing cameras), and I don't suspect we'll see 4k recording in "all" of their devices until some time after 2016.

There will be no firmware updates that deliver 4k, I can assure you. Otherwise the owners of 1DCs will be quite angry.

But it seems you are finally coming around to answering "Yes" to the topic of this thread :)

gsealy

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #349 on: February 23, 2014, 03:46:11 PM »
Surely 4k is in the future, and IMO it will be an evolutionary transition, not a revolutionary one.  To make it really take off all of the infrastructure has to be in place.  This means Internet bandwidth, cable and satellite transmission.  Right now true 4K  is only available with 4K media, 4K players and 4K TVs.  I have watched these configurations in electronics stores and it is a little different experience.  But it is not the huge improvement of HD over SD.  So it is going take a few of years before 4K is pervasive.

For producers we don't have to go there yet.  I know that I am not.  All signs point to 4K capable cameras being less and less expensive, and probably with more and better features in the next few years.  Given that I don't have a need to produce true 4K media right now, then I am better off waiting.  I would also be willing to bet that well done HD is going to be perfectly acceptable for at least 10 years and possibly longer than that. 

Don Haines

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #350 on: February 24, 2014, 07:15:58 PM »
Sony Xperia phone.... Shoots 4K video..... The future is getting closer......
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CarlTN

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #351 on: February 24, 2014, 08:54:39 PM »
But where are the 4k computer screens and 4k TVs that people need to view those videos on?

In the shops would be my guess ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution#List_of_4K_monitors.2C_TVs_and_projectors ...  :D

LOL!

Sure, at $40,000 a TV and $3000 a computer screen. That isn't consumer-level pricing. When TV's get down to $2000 and screens get down to $200, then were talking broad consumer consumption. We aren't even close to that yet.

http://www.amazon.com/Seiki-Digital-SE39UY04-39-Inch-Ultra/dp/B00DOPGO2G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393293262&sr=8-1&keywords=4k+ultra+hdtv

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #351 on: February 24, 2014, 08:54:39 PM »

jrista

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #352 on: February 24, 2014, 09:19:22 PM »
But where are the 4k computer screens and 4k TVs that people need to view those videos on?

In the shops would be my guess ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution#List_of_4K_monitors.2C_TVs_and_projectors ...  :D

LOL!

Sure, at $40,000 a TV and $3000 a computer screen. That isn't consumer-level pricing. When TV's get down to $2000 and screens get down to $200, then were talking broad consumer consumption. We aren't even close to that yet.

http://www.amazon.com/Seiki-Digital-SE39UY04-39-Inch-Ultra/dp/B00DOPGO2G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393293262&sr=8-1&keywords=4k+ultra+hdtv

Ah. Well, I'm happy to admit that's a game changer. I don't generally look at unknown off brands, but this is definitely consumer grade pricing.

Tugela

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #353 on: February 25, 2014, 05:01:13 AM »
Surely 4k is in the future, and IMO it will be an evolutionary transition, not a revolutionary one.  To make it really take off all of the infrastructure has to be in place.  This means Internet bandwidth, cable and satellite transmission.  Right now true 4K  is only available with 4K media, 4K players and 4K TVs.  I have watched these configurations in electronics stores and it is a little different experience.  But it is not the huge improvement of HD over SD.  So it is going take a few of years before 4K is pervasive.

For producers we don't have to go there yet.  I know that I am not.  All signs point to 4K capable cameras being less and less expensive, and probably with more and better features in the next few years.  Given that I don't have a need to produce true 4K media right now, then I am better off waiting.  I would also be willing to bet that well done HD is going to be perfectly acceptable for at least 10 years and possibly longer than that.

Shooting in 4K will allow superior 1080 delivery even if you are not actually delivering 4K. Since when has superior quality been regarded as an undesirable characteristic?????

You guys do not have a clue.

CarlTN

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #354 on: February 25, 2014, 05:50:14 AM »
But where are the 4k computer screens and 4k TVs that people need to view those videos on?

In the shops would be my guess ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution#List_of_4K_monitors.2C_TVs_and_projectors ...  :D

LOL!

Sure, at $40,000 a TV and $3000 a computer screen. That isn't consumer-level pricing. When TV's get down to $2000 and screens get down to $200, then were talking broad consumer consumption. We aren't even close to that yet.

http://www.amazon.com/Seiki-Digital-SE39UY04-39-Inch-Ultra/dp/B00DOPGO2G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393293262&sr=8-1&keywords=4k+ultra+hdtv

Ah. Well, I'm happy to admit that's a game changer. I don't generally look at unknown off brands, but this is definitely consumer grade pricing.

I found this one especially interesting, considering its price had been over $1000 just a few months ago.  My brother had found it and told me about it.

As for the TV's, go to Best Buy, even their price is falling like a rock on 4k TV's.  Prices everywhere will fall much farther after the holidays 2014.  By 2016 we might see the first wide release OLED 4k displays, of course they will cost $10k plus.  But by then, OLED 1080p TV's might be in the $3000 range, rather than 9 or 10k like they are now.

All that said, the consumer generally doesn't care about 4k TV's or content, and may not ever care, I admit that.  All the younger ones care about is playing games, sexting, and watching streaming Netflix on their smartphones...which I doubt will have 4k screen resolution EVER...And all the older tv consumers care about is watching a drama or a football game on a 50 or 60 inch tv.  4k won't revolutionize that at all, either.  It will also be a very long time before 4k is broadcast widely, if ever.  Pay per view events and movies will be, not much else, and will probably cost $12 or more per viewing.

What videophiles would like, in my opinion, is the blu ray version of 4k.  I doubt that will happen, at this rate. 

4k has its place in the digital public movie theater, and has been there for years.  That's where the resolution comes in handy.  But even 2k is acceptable on a large screen, unless the pixel pitch looks terrible (which it usually does with DLP projectors found in many theaters).

The biggest gripe I usually have, image wise, with movie theaters, is when they try to stretch out the life of those projector bulbs...and you get 10 stops of vignetting toward the sides.  Most people don't seem to even notice this, or care...but I do!

CarlTN

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #355 on: February 25, 2014, 05:54:46 AM »
Lets decide by seeing 4K video now: Blackmagic Production Camera 4K first footage ( processed )

And, lets compare it to 2.5K video: 2.5K Raw Video - Test Crop Mode 5x - Canon 7D with Magic Lantern (Pelican's nightly build) on Vimeo

The first one (4K) is from a blackmagic camera, the second one is from a hacked 7D (a la Magic Lantern).

Personally, I'm blown away by the resolution of the 2.5K video. I think the compression by youtube f*&^%s the 4K video.

The 4k version looks nice on my 1920x1200 screen, but it took forever just to download 30 seconds of it (I don't have fiber optic connection like the rest of you do).

JohnDizzo15

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #356 on: February 25, 2014, 01:24:29 PM »
Shooting in 4K will allow superior 1080 delivery even if you are not actually delivering 4K. Since when has superior quality been regarded as an undesirable characteristic?????

You guys do not have a clue.

You clearly have trouble with reading comprehension.

None of us in here believe that 4k is undesirable. The SUBJECT of this thread is whether Canon will introduce 4k in their lower end non-cinema camera bodies. The arguments presented by most of us are to support the opinion that Canon will not be doing so at the moment since the larger mass market is not ready for it nor is it an absolute necessity. This does not equate to "4k is undesirable."

You should probably get "a clue" about reading comprehension before you come in here and tell everyone else to get a clue. Since if you had one, you wouldn't have typed an irrelevant response.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 01:26:02 PM by JohnDizzo15 »

Tugela

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #357 on: February 25, 2014, 02:46:07 PM »
Shooting in 4K will allow superior 1080 delivery even if you are not actually delivering 4K. Since when has superior quality been regarded as an undesirable characteristic?????

You guys do not have a clue.

You clearly have trouble with reading comprehension.

None of us in here believe that 4k is undesirable. The SUBJECT of this thread is whether Canon will introduce 4k in their lower end non-cinema camera bodies. The arguments presented by most of us are to support the opinion that Canon will not be doing so at the moment since the larger mass market is not ready for it nor is it an absolute necessity. This does not equate to "4k is undesirable."

You should probably get "a clue" about reading comprehension before you come in here and tell everyone else to get a clue. Since if you had one, you wouldn't have typed an irrelevant response.

Hate to break it to you, but the xD bodies are not "larger mass market", they are marketed at enthusiasts and professionals, and THAT market is absolutely ready for 4K and wants it. Cameras like the GH4 and BMPC are eagerly awaited and anticipated. Sony has their AX100, and soon they will have a DSLR 4K camera to compete with the GH4. Canon would have to be absolutely insane to do nothing because they WILL lose market share to those products, and because of the way investment is made in glass, that loss will be long term.

I can guarantee that every xD body Canon releases from now on will be 4K capable. So, the only question is when these bodies will arrive. We know that the 7D2 is likely to arrive this year, with possibly another body as well. That will probably be a full frame. There are strong rumours that they are going to release cinema-EOS cameras at NAB that will "steal the show". Do you seriously think that ANY non-4K camera is going to "steal the show"? Really??

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #357 on: February 25, 2014, 02:46:07 PM »

JohnDizzo15

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #358 on: February 25, 2014, 05:13:21 PM »
Hate to break it to you, but the xD bodies are not "larger mass market", they are marketed at enthusiasts and professionals, and THAT market is absolutely ready for 4K and wants it. Cameras like the GH4 and BMPC are eagerly awaited and anticipated. Sony has their AX100, and soon they will have a DSLR 4K camera to compete with the GH4. Canon would have to be absolutely insane to do nothing because they WILL lose market share to those products, and because of the way investment is made in glass, that loss will be long term.

I can guarantee that every xD body Canon releases from now on will be 4K capable. So, the only question is when these bodies will arrive. We know that the 7D2 is likely to arrive this year, with possibly another body as well. That will probably be a full frame. There are strong rumours that they are going to release cinema-EOS cameras at NAB that will "steal the show". Do you seriously think that ANY non-4K camera is going to "steal the show"? Really??

Exactly. The question is, when will they arrive? And the answer is, not right now which is all most of us have been saying with the exception of a few.

As far as xD bodies go, there is the 1, 5, 6, and 7. We don't know what Canon's plans are for the refresh cycle of the 6D. The 1D and 5D based on history will definitely not be updated this year. So I can't speak for whether they will include 4k by the time they do decide to release updates which may well be more than a year from now. That, my friend is NOT RIGHT NOW.

That leaves the 7D as the only possibility unless like you are saying, they release another line of xD. Based on the feature sets of the high end cinema line and the current price points, what do you think the 7D or other new xD would have to be priced at in order for Canon to offer it with 4k? So do you believe Canon is willing to cannibilize their cinema line with xD bodies RIGHT NOW?

To your last point about CINEMA EOS "stealing the show" at NAB, that is completely irrelevant as that has nothing to do with xD lines which is what we are talking about here. And no, I don't think Canon could "steal the show" without having at least 4k in their CINEMA EOS announcements at NAB. But again, that has nothing to do with the inclusion of 4k in xD.

Some people in here seem to believe that video is a main driving force of the market for xD cameras. News flash, it is not. They are stills cameras first and poor man's video rig second. 4K to this market as a whole is not significant enough RIGHT NOW.

One last thing. Although the xD lines may not be as mass market relative to the Rebel lines, they are certainly massive compared to anything Panasonic is putting out.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 05:18:47 PM by JohnDizzo15 »

Tugela

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #359 on: February 25, 2014, 05:41:57 PM »
Hate to break it to you, but the xD bodies are not "larger mass market", they are marketed at enthusiasts and professionals, and THAT market is absolutely ready for 4K and wants it. Cameras like the GH4 and BMPC are eagerly awaited and anticipated. Sony has their AX100, and soon they will have a DSLR 4K camera to compete with the GH4. Canon would have to be absolutely insane to do nothing because they WILL lose market share to those products, and because of the way investment is made in glass, that loss will be long term.

I can guarantee that every xD body Canon releases from now on will be 4K capable. So, the only question is when these bodies will arrive. We know that the 7D2 is likely to arrive this year, with possibly another body as well. That will probably be a full frame. There are strong rumours that they are going to release cinema-EOS cameras at NAB that will "steal the show". Do you seriously think that ANY non-4K camera is going to "steal the show"? Really??

Exactly. The question is, when will they arrive? And the answer is, not right now which is all most of us have been saying with the exception of a few.

As far as xD bodies go, there is the 1, 5, 6, and 7. We don't know what Canon's plans are for the refresh cycle of the 6D. The 1D and 5D based on history will definitely not be updated this year. So I can't speak for whether they will include 4k by the time they do decide to release updates which may well be more than a year from now. That, my friend is NOT RIGHT NOW.

That leaves the 7D as the only possibility unless like you are saying, they release another line of xD. Based on the feature sets of the high end cinema line and the current price points, what do you think the 7D or other new xD would have to be priced at in order for Canon to offer it with 4k? So do you believe Canon is willing to cannibilize their cinema line with xD bodies RIGHT NOW?

To your last point about CINEMA EOS "stealing the show" at NAB, that is completely irrelevant as that has nothing to do with xD lines which is what we are talking about here. And no, I don't think Canon could "steal the show" without having at least 4k in their CINEMA EOS announcements at NAB. But again, that has nothing to do with the inclusion of 4k in xD.

Some people in here seem to believe that video is a main driving force of the market for xD cameras. News flash, it is not. They are stills cameras first and poor man's video rig second. 4K to this market as a whole is not significant enough RIGHT NOW.

One last thing. Although the xD lines may not be as mass market relative to the Rebel lines, they are certainly massive compared to anything Panasonic is putting out.

Your impression of the 5D release schedule is not accurate. There is a nice chart here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS_5D) showing the release cycles for all of Canon's DSLR products. As you can see, if they follow the same release cycle they have for the previous 3 iterations of the 5D, we should be seeing a new 5D soon. The 6D and 1D will be coming a bit later, if they follow they release cycles they have been using for the last decade. So, a 5D later this year, and 6D and 1D revisions coming out in the first half of 2015. The 7D is long overdue, and probably the reason for that is the increased importance of video. The 70D likely acted as a stop gap since they would have been aware of the impending video revolution, so the 7D may have been delayed to catch the cusp of that.

Whatever your opinion, if Canon do what they have always been doing, we should see almost all lines undergo a revision in the next 9-12 months.

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #359 on: February 25, 2014, 05:41:57 PM »