September 17, 2014, 01:36:13 AM

Author Topic: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?  (Read 30177 times)

mkabi

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #420 on: March 24, 2014, 02:06:36 PM »
Over sampling (4K to 2K, 8K to 4K) has many attractions in motion picture especially in VFX laden films but its not just about the sensor or camera codec. Recording data in each case is 4x larger and at 24/25fps or 48fps thats a lot of data. Playout for, grading, off-line edit, back-ups etc. needs to be faster than real-time or the system is so slow it becomes unworkable. Tera-bytes of data need to be managed & accessed by a number of parties seemlessly in the movie / TV world adding to data storage costs as redundancy needs to be built-in, films are still generally editted 2K and for good reason.

As the data increases its arguable whether it still needs to be recorded in raw or whether RGB in Rec 2020 should be used which was designed to cover 4K & 8K as Rec 709 was designed for 1080 / 2K HD. This also complies with ASC-11 the MXF wrapper for various file formats generated in-camera including raw & RGB. For movies RGB is straight forwards for adoption into DPX files and H.265 HEVC for video streaming is compiled with.

This is exactly what I have been saying this entire thread... only he worded it better.
Some guy was saying something about the difference between 2007 and 2014 computer...
Another guy was saying how cheap hard-drives are....  ::)

In my opinion, work with 1080p with your current Canon camera and current computer... do a short film... documentary anything... multiple takes, multiple angles... tell me how much space and resource it takes... then argue that you are ready for 4K.
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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #420 on: March 24, 2014, 02:06:36 PM »

Tugela

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #421 on: March 24, 2014, 06:26:55 PM »
Over sampling (4K to 2K, 8K to 4K) has many attractions in motion picture especially in VFX laden films but its not just about the sensor or camera codec. Recording data in each case is 4x larger and at 24/25fps or 48fps thats a lot of data. Playout for, grading, off-line edit, back-ups etc. needs to be faster than real-time or the system is so slow it becomes unworkable. Tera-bytes of data need to be managed & accessed by a number of parties seemlessly in the movie / TV world adding to data storage costs as redundancy needs to be built-in, films are still generally editted 2K and for good reason.

As the data increases its arguable whether it still needs to be recorded in raw or whether RGB in Rec 2020 should be used which was designed to cover 4K & 8K as Rec 709 was designed for 1080 / 2K HD. This also complies with ASC-11 the MXF wrapper for various file formats generated in-camera including raw & RGB. For movies RGB is straight forwards for adoption into DPX files and H.265 HEVC for video streaming is compiled with.

This is exactly what I have been saying this entire thread... only he worded it better.
Some guy was saying something about the difference between 2007 and 2014 computer...
Another guy was saying how cheap hard-drives are....  ::)

In my opinion, work with 1080p with your current Canon camera and current computer... do a short film... documentary anything... multiple takes, multiple angles... tell me how much space and resource it takes... then argue that you are ready for 4K.

I am ready for 4K. More than ready. In fact, why the hell isn't it here already?

mkabi

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #422 on: March 29, 2014, 06:49:30 PM »
Forget 4K...
Sorry this is off brand, but hey... it has EF mount options:
http://news.doddleme.com/equipment/kinefinity-announces-6k-kinemax-camera/

Forget that... how about a 28K camera? lol
http://www.1001noisycameras.com/2008/11/the-red-is-here-dsmc-is-here-dslr-executives-crying-in-their-offices.html

Editted to add: Note that article has been around since 2008
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 06:52:52 PM by mkabi »
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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #423 on: March 30, 2014, 10:19:04 PM »
This might be a bit controversial.... but I believe that 4K video is more important in the P/S cameras than in the XD lineup. My reasoning is that for the consumer world, this is a very important feature to have. It doesn't matter if they never use it and have nothing to view it on, it is perceived as a need.

In the advanced enthusiast world and the professional world, the feature becomes a "nice to have" function for many, a must have for some, and a couldn't care less for others.

We suspect the 7D2 will be the next XD camera out. If it has 4K video it will sell well. If it has 2K video at 60hz it will sell well. If it has 2K video at 30 HZ it will still sell well because it's target market is still picture action photographers...

For example, I have a 60D and have shot hundreds of video clips on it.... but I have shot over 100,000 stills... this tells me very plainly where my interests lie.... yet I still want 4K in my next camera....
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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #424 on: March 30, 2014, 10:41:55 PM »
This might be a bit controversial.... but I believe that 4K video is more important in the P/S cameras than in the XD lineup. My reasoning is that for the consumer world, this is a very important feature to have. It doesn't matter if they never use it and have nothing to view it on, it is perceived as a need.

In the advanced enthusiast world and the professional world, the feature becomes a "nice to have" function for many, a must have for some, and a couldn't care less for others.

We suspect the 7D2 will be the next XD camera out. If it has 4K video it will sell well. If it has 2K video at 60hz it will sell well. If it has 2K video at 30 HZ it will still sell well because it's target market is still picture action photographers...

For example, I have a 60D and have shot hundreds of video clips on it.... but I have shot over 100,000 stills... this tells me very plainly where my interests lie.... yet I still want 4K in my next camera....

+1 for most of it, except for the P/S community part

At the time when I got a t3i, back in 2011, the cameras I was looking at... most of them still only 720p???? I think some P/S even now are still 720p...
At the time, I didn't care too much as I was really looking at high video frame rates. For slow motion video.
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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #425 on: March 30, 2014, 11:28:51 PM »

At the time, I didn't care too much as I was really looking at high video frame rates. For slow motion video.
If you are going to shoot BIF, you need high frame rate or the wings look goofy... I have shot gees at 30FPS and when you view it the wings just seem to jump around at random....

I'm more interested in 2K at 60FPS or preferably 120FPS than I am interested in 4K. The fastest frame rate I can get on my 60D is 60hz while my P/S can film the same resolution at 240hz...
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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #426 on: March 31, 2014, 02:45:55 AM »

At the time, I didn't care too much as I was really looking at high video frame rates. For slow motion video.
If you are going to shoot BIF, you need high frame rate or the wings look goofy... I have shot gees at 30FPS and when you view it the wings just seem to jump around at random....

I'm more interested in 2K at 60FPS or preferably 120FPS than I am interested in 4K. The fastest frame rate I can get on my 60D is 60hz while my P/S can film the same resolution at 240hz...

You don't need a high frame rate, you need a slower shutter. Stutter and jumping like that is caused by having a shutter speed that is too high relative to your frame rate. Cinematographers have been shooting wildlife documentaries for decades at 24fps, and wing stutter has never been a problem for the pros. Even with high end digital, you still see high quality documentaries like Planet Earth, Life, etc. shot at standard cinematic frame rates, because you can see the motion blur in the birds wings.

Those same productions also used high frame rates to GREAT effect...for example, when they pan through landscapes, the slower frame rates tended to cause stutter when near landscape moved faster than distant landscape. This happened in Planet Earth. In the more recent Frozen Planet, they solved the landscape panning stutter by shooting at a higher frame rate, coupled with with a faster transition rate. Slowed down, the higher frame rate produced EXCEPTIONALLY smooth landscape panning, while the same old standard 24fps produced beautiful wing motion blurs for scenes with animal life. They also used very slow time lapse imaging in all of those series to produce the most incredible, smooth, and intriguing time lapse sequences I've ever seen.

You have to choose the right frame rate (and even camera handling technique) for the situation. Faster frame rates are not the solution to all cinematography problems. They actually present more problems than they solve at the moment (Can anyone say: The Hobbit? *sigh*) If you are getting stutter, your shutter speed is faster than your frame rate by too great a degree. You should be lowering the shutter speed closer to the frame rate, allowing the shutter to be open for longer in order to create that pleasing motion blur in the birds wings. You don't necessarily want a 1/24th second shutter at 24fps, but neither do you want a 1/60th second shutter.

Also keep in mind that higher frame rates, without further camera handling technique or processing technique, NORMALLY result in slow motion video when played back at normal speed (your output frame rate is always going to be 24 or 30 frames per second. The high frame rates on TVs, like 60fps, 120fps, etc. are artificial, produced within the TV hardware that does additional inter-frame processing to blend two separate source frames into four or six output frames.) Your video does not play back at 60fps if you recorded it at 60fps...it still plays back at 30fps. So don't think of 60fps as the solution to your problems...ultimately, shooting at 60 or 120 fps just means your creating a slow motion sequence. This is especially true if you are interested in shooting at mixed frame rates, and producing a video that contains normal rate and slow motion sequences...you have no choice but to use the same output frame rate...anything shot slower than that will speed up, anything shot faster than that will slow down.

I don't suspect 48fps or 60fps will become standard playback rates until Hollywood has made them mainstream. There are only a small handful of films shot at those rates (maybe only 48fps, not sure if anything with 60fps has actually been finished yet.) The Hobbit BluRay discs are processed to play back at 30fps, and I have to say, I love that, because I don't get motion sickness watching them at home. You can still see some of the other consequences of the higher shooting frame rate, but the funky motion and panning issues don't seem to be present, or at least not as bad, in the BluRay versions as they were in the theaters.
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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #426 on: March 31, 2014, 02:45:55 AM »

Tugela

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #427 on: March 31, 2014, 04:23:08 AM »

Also keep in mind that higher frame rates, without further camera handling technique or processing technique, NORMALLY result in slow motion video when played back at normal speed (your output frame rate is always going to be 24 or 30 frames per second. The high frame rates on TVs, like 60fps, 120fps, etc. are artificial, produced within the TV hardware that does additional inter-frame processing to blend two separate source frames into four or six output frames.) Your video does not play back at 60fps if you recorded it at 60fps...it still plays back at 30fps. So don't think of 60fps as the solution to your problems...ultimately, shooting at 60 or 120 fps just means your creating a slow motion sequence. This is especially true if you are interested in shooting at mixed frame rates, and producing a video that contains normal rate and slow motion sequences...you have no choice but to use the same output frame rate...anything shot slower than that will speed up, anything shot faster than that will slow down.


Ummm.......that is not true. Most modern TVs will handle at least 60 fps, after all, that is what computers put out, and all of them can be used as computer monitors. My TV can handle frame rates up to 240 fps, if it does get that, THEN it interpolates frames. It automatically matches frame rate to the source, and if you have the feature turned on, it interpolates frames to make up the 240 fps if your source does not go that high.

Typical sources would be BluRay or AVCHD output (which may be either 30p or 60p), or a computer (usually 60p)

Just because your typical movie is 24 fps does not mean that all other video is treated the same way.


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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #428 on: March 31, 2014, 06:51:15 AM »

At the time, I didn't care too much as I was really looking at high video frame rates. For slow motion video.
If you are going to shoot BIF, you need high frame rate or the wings look goofy... I have shot gees at 30FPS and when you view it the wings just seem to jump around at random....

I'm more interested in 2K at 60FPS or preferably 120FPS than I am interested in 4K. The fastest frame rate I can get on my 60D is 60hz while my P/S can film the same resolution at 240hz...

You don't need a high frame rate, you need a slower shutter. Stutter and jumping like that is caused by having a shutter speed that is too high relative to your frame rate. Cinematographers have been shooting wildlife documentaries for decades at 24fps, and wing stutter has never been a problem for the pros. Even with high end digital, you still see high quality documentaries like Planet Earth, Life, etc. shot at standard cinematic frame rates, because you can see the motion blur in the birds wings.

Those same productions also used high frame rates to GREAT effect...for example, when they pan through landscapes, the slower frame rates tended to cause stutter when near landscape moved faster than distant landscape. This happened in Planet Earth. In the more recent Frozen Planet, they solved the landscape panning stutter by shooting at a higher frame rate, coupled with with a faster transition rate. Slowed down, the higher frame rate produced EXCEPTIONALLY smooth landscape panning, while the same old standard 24fps produced beautiful wing motion blurs for scenes with animal life. They also used very slow time lapse imaging in all of those series to produce the most incredible, smooth, and intriguing time lapse sequences I've ever seen.

You have to choose the right frame rate (and even camera handling technique) for the situation. Faster frame rates are not the solution to all cinematography problems. They actually present more problems than they solve at the moment (Can anyone say: The Hobbit? *sigh*) If you are getting stutter, your shutter speed is faster than your frame rate by too great a degree. You should be lowering the shutter speed closer to the frame rate, allowing the shutter to be open for longer in order to create that pleasing motion blur in the birds wings. You don't necessarily want a 1/24th second shutter at 24fps, but neither do you want a 1/60th second shutter.

Also keep in mind that higher frame rates, without further camera handling technique or processing technique, NORMALLY result in slow motion video when played back at normal speed (your output frame rate is always going to be 24 or 30 frames per second. The high frame rates on TVs, like 60fps, 120fps, etc. are artificial, produced within the TV hardware that does additional inter-frame processing to blend two separate source frames into four or six output frames.) Your video does not play back at 60fps if you recorded it at 60fps...it still plays back at 30fps. So don't think of 60fps as the solution to your problems...ultimately, shooting at 60 or 120 fps just means your creating a slow motion sequence. This is especially true if you are interested in shooting at mixed frame rates, and producing a video that contains normal rate and slow motion sequences...you have no choice but to use the same output frame rate...anything shot slower than that will speed up, anything shot faster than that will slow down.

I don't suspect 48fps or 60fps will become standard playback rates until Hollywood has made them mainstream. There are only a small handful of films shot at those rates (maybe only 48fps, not sure if anything with 60fps has actually been finished yet.) The Hobbit BluRay discs are processed to play back at 30fps, and I have to say, I love that, because I don't get motion sickness watching them at home. You can still see some of the other consequences of the higher shooting frame rate, but the funky motion and panning issues don't seem to be present, or at least not as bad, in the BluRay versions as they were in the theaters.
It was with a slow shutter speed.... the wings flapping and a 30hz frame rate set up a beat frequency. (no pun intended). When I shoot video I try to use the slowest possible shutter speed.
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mkabi

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #429 on: March 31, 2014, 11:15:29 AM »

At the time, I didn't care too much as I was really looking at high video frame rates. For slow motion video.
If you are going to shoot BIF, you need high frame rate or the wings look goofy... I have shot gees at 30FPS and when you view it the wings just seem to jump around at random....

I'm more interested in 2K at 60FPS or preferably 120FPS than I am interested in 4K. The fastest frame rate I can get on my 60D is 60hz while my P/S can film the same resolution at 240hz...

Well then... You should be happy when the Go Pro 4 is released :D
http://www.amongtech.com/new-gopro-hero-4-can-record-4k-1080p-120-fps/

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #430 on: March 31, 2014, 12:10:46 PM »

At the time, I didn't care too much as I was really looking at high video frame rates. For slow motion video.
If you are going to shoot BIF, you need high frame rate or the wings look goofy... I have shot gees at 30FPS and when you view it the wings just seem to jump around at random....

I'm more interested in 2K at 60FPS or preferably 120FPS than I am interested in 4K. The fastest frame rate I can get on my 60D is 60hz while my P/S can film the same resolution at 240hz...

Well then... You should be happy when the Go Pro 4 is released :D
http://www.amongtech.com/new-gopro-hero-4-can-record-4k-1080p-120-fps/
WOW!

Perhaps someday a XD camera will be as good as a GoPro :)
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mkabi

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #431 on: March 31, 2014, 12:33:52 PM »

At the time, I didn't care too much as I was really looking at high video frame rates. For slow motion video.
If you are going to shoot BIF, you need high frame rate or the wings look goofy... I have shot gees at 30FPS and when you view it the wings just seem to jump around at random....

I'm more interested in 2K at 60FPS or preferably 120FPS than I am interested in 4K. The fastest frame rate I can get on my 60D is 60hz while my P/S can film the same resolution at 240hz...

Well then... You should be happy when the Go Pro 4 is released :D
http://www.amongtech.com/new-gopro-hero-4-can-record-4k-1080p-120-fps/
WOW!

Perhaps someday a XD camera will be as good as a GoPro :)

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but lets just say you're serious and make sure you say "in terms of video frame rates and video resolution... someday XD cameras will be as good as the GoPro"

If GoPro steps it up and produced something bigger like the BM4K... now that would be a game changer.

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #432 on: March 31, 2014, 01:39:49 PM »

At the time, I didn't care too much as I was really looking at high video frame rates. For slow motion video.
If you are going to shoot BIF, you need high frame rate or the wings look goofy... I have shot gees at 30FPS and when you view it the wings just seem to jump around at random....

I'm more interested in 2K at 60FPS or preferably 120FPS than I am interested in 4K. The fastest frame rate I can get on my 60D is 60hz while my P/S can film the same resolution at 240hz...

Well then... You should be happy when the Go Pro 4 is released :D
http://www.amongtech.com/new-gopro-hero-4-can-record-4k-1080p-120-fps/
WOW!

Perhaps someday a XD camera will be as good as a GoPro :)

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but lets just say you're serious and make sure you say "in terms of video frame rates and video resolution... someday XD cameras will be as good as the GoPro"

If GoPro steps it up and produced something bigger like the BM4K... now that would be a game changer.
OK.

in terms of video frame rates and video resolution... perhaps someday XD cameras will be as good as the GoPro.


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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #432 on: March 31, 2014, 01:39:49 PM »

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #433 on: March 31, 2014, 10:31:39 PM »
A good bit of "Planet Earth", "Life", "Migration", and the other great BBC produced wildlife documentaries (and also many shot to air for "shark week" every year)...are shot using a high speed cinema digital camera, so that it can be played back at 29.9999 or whatever the frame rate is, and it shows slow motion without any noticeable blur.  Also a lot of car racing such as Formula 1 and Le Mans series, employ high speed cameras.  Whether the video shutter rate is usually some multiple of the frame rate, I can't say.  It probably varies based on available light and other factors.

But 24 fps definitely does not cut it for action sequences where you want to play it back at slower than life speeds later, and include as part of the final production.

Movie projectors that project(ed) film in public theaters, also do not technically display at a single frame 24 times a second.  It is two identical frame pairs, at 24 times a second.  You are seeing 48 frames a second, or 24 pairs of duplicated frames per second.  Yes the film was shot at 24 fps, but it's not displayed that way.  Why?  Because it gives a better sense of fluid motion.

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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #434 on: April 01, 2014, 05:24:03 PM »

Also keep in mind that higher frame rates, without further camera handling technique or processing technique, NORMALLY result in slow motion video when played back at normal speed (your output frame rate is always going to be 24 or 30 frames per second. The high frame rates on TVs, like 60fps, 120fps, etc. are artificial, produced within the TV hardware that does additional inter-frame processing to blend two separate source frames into four or six output frames.) Your video does not play back at 60fps if you recorded it at 60fps...it still plays back at 30fps. So don't think of 60fps as the solution to your problems...ultimately, shooting at 60 or 120 fps just means your creating a slow motion sequence. This is especially true if you are interested in shooting at mixed frame rates, and producing a video that contains normal rate and slow motion sequences...you have no choice but to use the same output frame rate...anything shot slower than that will speed up, anything shot faster than that will slow down.


Ummm.......that is not true. Most modern TVs will handle at least 60 fps, after all, that is what computers put out, and all of them can be used as computer monitors. My TV can handle frame rates up to 240 fps, if it does get that, THEN it interpolates frames. It automatically matches frame rate to the source, and if you have the feature turned on, it interpolates frames to make up the 240 fps if your source does not go that high.

Typical sources would be BluRay or AVCHD output (which may be either 30p or 60p), or a computer (usually 60p)

Just because your typical movie is 24 fps does not mean that all other video is treated the same way.

There is refresh rate, and there is progressive video output. There is also the interpolated motion rates, such as Samsung's CMR (Clear Motion Rate). There ARE some high end premium HDTV channels (i.e. ESPN) that offer 60p progressive frame rates, however for the most part, the majority of HDTV is 30p. My Samsung non-3D TV has a 120Hz "refresh rate", supports 60p output, but as I've never paid for premium HDTV channels (they are extremely expensive, as they use up a hell of a lot of bandwidth), I've only ever seen 30p content on it.

The modern 240Hz refresh rates for TVs were originally created to support interpolated motion rates for 3D video up to 120Hz per eye, or 240Hz in total. BluRay video frame rate is still 24fps as far as I know, and the supported BluRay playback rates (according to the current BluRay standards) are either 720p @ 60Hz progressive, or 1080p @ 30Hz progressive or 50/60Hz interlaced. The higher refresh rates on TVs avoid timing issues between the video rate and the playback rate (the refresh rate)...i.e. if you had a 24fps video on a 24hz screen, you have to get the timing exact to ensure that each frame is ready to play exactly every 1/24th of a second...if your timing is off (there is always noise, so it's likely), then you end up rerendering the same frame for another 1/24th of a second, causing stutter. With higher refresh rates, timing becomes less and less of an issue. At 60hz, you play back ~0.4 frames per refresh cycle, at 120Hz you play back ~0.2, and at 240Hz you play back ~0.1. You still can't get timing 100% exact, which is where interpolation like CMR comes into play, which smooths things out if you end up having to re-render the same frame for an extra refresh cycle.

The key is to note that even though BluRay and HDTV channels support playback (officially) at 30p or 60i (or even 60p, as in the case of some premium HDTV channels), the VIDEO ITSELF is still usually filmed at 24fps for standard motion. I am also quite certain that even the 1080p @ 60hz channels are still filmed at 24fps (I think if they were filmed at 60fps, people would have started complaining about it like they have with The Hobbit, and I've not read about any such thing.) Filming rate and playback rate are very different things. Filming rates, for standard motion, higher than 24fps are still VERY new, and not many productions have used those frame rates yet. If you want fast motion, you would have to film at lower than 24fps (or do timelapse), and if you want slow motion you would have to film at higher than 24fps. This is IRRESPECTIVE of the playback rate, whether it is interlaced or not, etc.

Regarding Don's problem with a beat frequency in bird wings, if you have software capable of doing it, you could probably record at 60fps, then interpolate that sequence back down to 24fps for inclusion with other 24fps sequences, WITHOUT resulting in the 60fps sequences playing back as "slow motion". I'm not sure if something like Adobe Premier can do that, or whether you would need higher end software. Either way, there isn't any mixing and matching frame rates in a single final output video. If you record at different frame rates, you either string them together in a tool like Premier, and anything filmed faster than your output rate ends up "slow motion", and anything filmed slower than your output rate ends up "high speed motion".
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Re: Will the next xD cameras do 4k?
« Reply #434 on: April 01, 2014, 05:24:03 PM »