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Author Topic: What's Next from Canon?  (Read 121591 times)

Stone

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2014, 11:02:51 AM »
didn't we hear that Canon has an exciting pipeline last year as well and if I'm not mistaken the year before?  At this point, it's put up or shut up, I happy with my current kit and Canon won't be getting another dime until I actually see something worth buying...
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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2014, 11:02:51 AM »

ajfotofilmagem

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #91 on: February 15, 2014, 11:03:41 AM »
This also causes a drastic loss of battery life ...
Which is solved by bigger batteries ... which is why I keep shouting for people to stop harping on "the small size of mirrorless" as a feature. Make a mirrorless camera as big as 5DIII and cram the sucker full of batteries.
... and the resulting information overload is distracting.  I turn it all of in my EVF cameras ...
For some. But isn't it great that you can actually turn it off, huh?  ;)
... the EVF is lousy in every way compared to an OVF.
Depends. Definitely so in 2012; it became better in 2013; and next year it'll be even better. For comparison, I remember a time when we all felt that film was still soooo much superior to digital and "pros" wouldn't touch it for serious work. But look at where we are today. So please don't judge EVF's on how they are now, as the technology is constantly being improved.  :)
I'm not a fan of mirrorless. But if the size and ergonomics are equal to the 7D, fully compatible with EF / EF-S lenses without adapter, and the viewfinder evolves much compared to current, I would like to have one. However, may not be more expensive than DSLR cameras such as the Olympus cameras are today.

jrista

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #92 on: February 15, 2014, 11:17:30 AM »
This also causes a drastic loss of battery life ...

Which is solved by bigger batteries ... which is why I keep shouting for people to stop harping on "the small size of mirrorless" as a feature. Make a mirrorless camera as big as 5DIII and cram the sucker full of batteries.

... and the resulting information overload is distracting.  I turn it all of in my EVF cameras ...

For some. But isn't it great that you can actually turn it off, huh?  ;)

... the EVF is lousy in every way compared to an OVF.

Depends. Definitely so in 2012; it became better in 2013; and next year it'll be even better. For comparison, I remember a time when we all felt that film was still soooo much superior to digital and "pros" wouldn't touch it for serious work. But look at where we are today. So please don't judge EVF's on how they are now, as the technology is constantly being improved.  :)

Well, as always, nothing is so simple.

First, when it comes to batteries, even if someone makes a "mirrorless" with the same body design as a 5D III, it wouldn't necessarily be so easy to just cram it all full of batteries. For one, batteries are where a significant part of camera weight comes from. For the people who care MOST about camera footprint, size and weight are the two things they really only care about. In which case, they honestly don't care that an ultra tiny mirrorless camera that can barely be controlled with one hand, let alone two hands, has a microscopic battery with a microscopic battery life.

Batteries are also one of those areas of manufacturing that governments just love to regulate. Batteries utilize a number of relatively toxic chemicals and highly reactive metals. Environmentalists hate batteries, so governments regulate the crap out of batteries. The 5D II and 7D batteries were great, there was nothing wrong with them, however the 5D III had to be released along with a new battery type because of Japanese regulations. It's still compatible with the old ones, but in Japan, you have to use the new ones. Same deal with the 1D X, it's battery had to be completely redesigned to conform to Japanese and EU regulations. Stuffing some super large battery into a 5D III sized mirrorless would be fraught with regulatory issues...so it is probably far from as easy as it *sounds*.

When it comes to EVFs, in most respects even with the newest and greatest versions from 2013, they are woefully inadequate to those of us who NEED what OVFs offer...unlimited dynamic range, higher resolution than even the best theoretically possible with an EVF (@1" eye relief), 100% realtime behavior (i.e. the motion of subjects is replicated in real time by the OPTICAL viewfinder system), and are already capable of offering a considerable amount of functionality in a HUD-style display via the kind of transmissive LCD technology Canon uses in their current OVFs. Tricks like focus peaking, live hud histogram, face identification blinking, and a whole host of other features could actually be implemented in an OVF with a transmissive LCD. You do not actually HAVE to switch to an EVF in order to do these things. All you really need is a high resolution RGB metering sensor (something like what the 1D X has), and you would have all the information you needed to render all sorts of information onto an OVF Trans LCD real-time, superimposed over a REAL image that is not limited by the dynamic range of the sensor or EVF screen.

Canon has hinted at a Hybrid VF. I'm honestly curious to see what that is. I am hoping it is something like I've described above, because IMO that would be the best of both worlds. Even the BEST of EVFs from last year fall far short of what is necessary on the DR and resolution fronts. Dynamic range is doubly limited...first it is limited by the sensor, and second it is limited by the design of the EVF screen itself. Resolution in EVFs needs to be over 5000ppi in order for pixels to be invisible to the human eye at 1.25" eye relief for 20/20 vision. It needs to be over 12,000ppi in order for pixels to be invisible to the human eye at 1" eye relief for 20/10 vision. However, 12,000ppi is likely impossible, as the pixels would have to be so small, you would be filtering out red light...you would basically have a blue/green screen. EVFs have a very long way to go before they compare to OVFs, especially if OVFs eventually get more embedded HUD technology in their Transmissive LCD layers (at which point, I honestly do not think an EVF could EVER compare to a TLCD OVF).

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #93 on: February 15, 2014, 11:31:35 AM »
I have the Mark I that cost me about $150 net with all the rebates going on in 2012.
The MK II has the same sensor and a faster lens, but is it sharper?  Promised faster autofocus, but not the dual pixel AF.  No tough screen either.  It doesn't even have the tunnel viewfinder, you must pay $$$ for one.
 
It does have WI Fi, but you could use a Wi-Fi card on the old one.
 
I'll just keep on with the one I have.

Sella174

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #94 on: February 15, 2014, 12:21:06 PM »
Well, as always, nothing is so simple.

I've found that most times "experts" refuse to see the obvious solution because it is too simple according to them. I've also found that most times solutions really are very simple. But that's just me ...  ;)

First, when it comes to batteries ...

Yes, in a hyper-regulated society ... glad I don't live in one.  :D

When it comes to EVFs ... Resolution in EVFs needs to be over 5000ppi in order for pixels to be invisible to the human eye at 1.25" eye relief for 20/20 vision. It needs to be over 12,000ppi in order for pixels to be invisible to the human eye at 1" eye relief for 20/10 vision. However, 12,000ppi is likely impossible, as the pixels would have to be so small, you would be filtering out red light ...

Actually, there's a very simple solution for this problem as stated by you ... only I don't work for Canon (or Nikon), so they can go figure it out for themselves ...  8)
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jrista

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #95 on: February 15, 2014, 12:39:06 PM »
Well, as always, nothing is so simple.

I've found that most times "experts" refuse to see the obvious solution because it is too simple according to them. I've also found that most times solutions really are very simple. But that's just me ...  ;)

LOL. Well, at least your blissful in our ignorance. ;P

First, when it comes to batteries ...

Yes, in a hyper-regulated society ... glad I don't live in one.  :D

Actually, that doesn't matter. You still face the problem, because Canon is a Japanese company, and most of their manufacturing occurs there. The Japanese regulate the economy within which the cameras you buy are built. You have to not only deal with their regulations, you have to pay for them too, if you buy cameras made in Japan. :P

When it comes to EVFs ... Resolution in EVFs needs to be over 5000ppi in order for pixels to be invisible to the human eye at 1.25" eye relief for 20/20 vision. It needs to be over 12,000ppi in order for pixels to be invisible to the human eye at 1" eye relief for 20/10 vision. However, 12,000ppi is likely impossible, as the pixels would have to be so small, you would be filtering out red light ...

Actually, there's a very simple solution for this problem as stated by you ... only I don't work for Canon (or Nikon), so they can go figure it out for themselves ...  8)

??

mkabi

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #96 on: February 15, 2014, 12:50:53 PM »

Depends. Definitely so in 2012; it became better in 2013; and next year it'll be even better. For comparison, I remember a time when we all felt that film was still soooo much superior to digital and "pros" wouldn't touch it for serious work. But look at where we are today. So please don't judge EVF's on how they are now, as the technology is constantly being improved.  :)

 ::)
yeah, like the 30D is over the 60D, and how the 6D is the same in terms of APS-C of the 30D?
Bah...

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #96 on: February 15, 2014, 12:50:53 PM »

Sella174

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #97 on: February 15, 2014, 01:02:50 PM »
LOL. Well, at least your blissful in our ignorance. ;P

 :) :D ;D

Actually, that doesn't matter. You still face the problem, because Canon is a Japanese company, and most of their manufacturing occurs there. The Japanese regulate the economy within which the cameras you buy are built. You have to not only deal with their regulations, you have to pay for them too, if you buy cameras made in Japan. :P

So Japanese legislation forbids us to place more than ... what? ... two batteries in our cameras? I don't really understand this part of your argument. Sure, I'm all for removing certain hazardous chemicals from batteries, but said removal also removes it from batteries for use in "traditional" DSLR camera. Obviously I'm seriously missing something here ...  ???

??

No dice. It's my idea and Canon (or Nikon) ain't gettin' it for free.  :-X
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Sella174

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #98 on: February 15, 2014, 01:14:32 PM »
yeah, like the 30D is over the 60D, and how the 6D is the same in terms of APS-C of the 30D?

Huh?

But seriously, photography is a very subjective subject and just because you don't like my style doesn't make me wrong. Unless, of course, you actually think that my style is wrong and then you're the one who's wrong.  :D

On the other hand, IF you're one of those "photographers" who believes that you can only take decent pictures with the latest and most expensive gear, you've got a lot to learn about the art that is photography.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 01:16:11 PM by Sella174 »
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jrista

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #99 on: February 15, 2014, 01:23:49 PM »
Actually, that doesn't matter. You still face the problem, because Canon is a Japanese company, and most of their manufacturing occurs there. The Japanese regulate the economy within which the cameras you buy are built. You have to not only deal with their regulations, you have to pay for them too, if you buy cameras made in Japan. :P

So Japanese legislation forbids us to place more than ... what? ... two batteries in our cameras? I don't really understand this part of your argument. Sure, I'm all for removing certain hazardous chemicals from batteries, but said removal also removes it from batteries for use in "traditional" DSLR camera. Obviously I'm seriously missing something here ...  ???

Let me put it this way. While Canon might end up with more empty space inside of a 5D III camera body once they make it "mirrorless", they wouldn't necessarily be able to easily fill it with more battery. The likelihood that they keep using their current battery designs is very high, as redesigning the battery wouldn't only involve just the relatively small R&D cost to do so...but also the regulatory burden to make sure that whatever battery they designed conformed to Japanese regulatory specifications. It isn't just chemical makeup, those kinds of regulations usually rather inane and stupid, because it is a politician or his assistant drafting up the laws, neither of whom are ever engineers themselves, and they are basing their regulatory decisions based on not only insight they might glean from some short interviews with engineers, but also environmental lobbies and a whole host of other interests all tugging at each other. In the end you end up with ridiculous things like limitations on maximum amp-hour capacity, maximum physical size, etc. that really do nothing to solve any interested parties problems or concerns...instead it finds the least objectionable middle ground that results in the least amount of complaining from all interested parties...and totally gimps the consumer's options and capabilities. Even as it stands now, the 5D III batteries could be larger, as there are some decent space cavities inside the 5D III body...but they aren't, because of regulatory limitations.

Another example is the 30 minute limitation on video recording length. There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to limit how long a video clip can be in a DSLR with video capability. It is most assuredly not a technological issue for DSLRs to stop recording at 29:59. The sole reason that limitation exists is because the EU and I think one other regulatory region require it, and as far as I gather, that regulation is based on lobbies from dedicated video recording device manufacturers for things like camcorders who wanted to squelch any legitimate competition from DSLRs (i.e. they were too weak to innovate and compete in an open market, so they went running to nanny government to lay on the spankings and send to their rooms on the only competition they have faced in a decade... :P)

Problem is, it's too difficult for manufacturers to build one model for the EU, one model for Japan, and another model without these inane limitations for the rest of the world. So they build one model that fits within the limitations of all the regulations of all the regulatory regions they sell their products in...and everyone regardless of their actual market ends up having to deal with regulations that don't even exist in their own country.

??

No dice. It's my idea and Canon (or Nikon) ain't gettin' it for free.  :-X

Er...whatever...

Sella174

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #100 on: February 15, 2014, 01:55:47 PM »
...

Now, without getting too technical about it, the battery for the EOS 1DX has more than twice the "power" (mAh) than the battery for the Sony A7, whilst the battery for the EOS 5D Mark III has about 800mAh more than the former. So if Sony made the space for the bigger battery in their camera, they would theoretically have doubled the number of "shots" per charge. Or am I again missing the more complicated picture?

NOTE: I know amps per hour isn't true electrical "power", but calling it "power" makes the discussion easier. And obviously the voltages are different, but ... you get the idea ... I hope.
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9VIII

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #101 on: February 15, 2014, 02:05:38 PM »
NEED what OVFs offer...unlimited dynamic range

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/cameras-vs-human-eye.htm

Lets just put this one to rest. Your eyes do not have unlimited dynamic range, it's only about as good as your camera.
Modern cameras have much better night vision (ISO well above 1000).
Also, I have yet to hear a good argument for why looking at the environment with your eye through the lens helps you take a better picture.

Don Haines

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #102 on: February 15, 2014, 02:33:57 PM »
NEED what OVFs offer...unlimited dynamic range

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/cameras-vs-human-eye.htm

Lets just put this one to rest. Your eyes do not have unlimited dynamic range, it's only about as good as your camera.
Modern cameras have much better night vision (ISO well above 1000).
Also, I have yet to hear a good argument for why looking at the environment with your eye through the lens helps you take a better picture.

Eyes can see better in the dark than a DSLR, but at a much lower resolution and in monochrome...  it's comparing apples to oranges.... A fair comparison would be to compare eyes at night to a B+W low resolution sensor.... like the ones on security cameras.... the ones that work in almost complete darkness....  (Digital wins again)

but there is a very good reason why looking at the environment through the lens helps you to take a better picture.... That is the posture that the ergonomics of a DSLR is designed for. You will be more stable and you will not shake as much.

That is also why pro videocams are the shape that they are.... the ergonomics are designed to work best that way.... form follows function.
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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #102 on: February 15, 2014, 02:33:57 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #103 on: February 15, 2014, 02:34:45 PM »
NEED what OVFs offer...unlimited dynamic range

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/cameras-vs-human-eye.htm

Lets just put this one to rest. Your eyes do not have unlimited dynamic range, it's only about as good as your camera.
Modern cameras have much better night vision (ISO well above 1000).
Also, I have yet to hear a good argument for why looking at the environment with your eye through the lens helps you take a better picture.

Sorry, you haven't put anything to rest.  Well, ok, one thing - the eye doesn't have 'unlimited' DR.  But it has much greater DR than a dSLR or EVF - as pointed out in the post you linked (the 'instantaneous DR' simulates a picture, but looking through an OVF is live and your eye accommodates).

As for an OVF resulting in a better picture, missing peak action due to the EVF lag makes for a bad picture.
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jrista

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #104 on: February 15, 2014, 02:45:52 PM »
NEED what OVFs offer...unlimited dynamic range

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/cameras-vs-human-eye.htm

Lets just put this one to rest. Your eyes do not have unlimited dynamic range, it's only about as good as your camera.
Modern cameras have much better night vision (ISO well above 1000).
Also, I have yet to hear a good argument for why looking at the environment with your eye through the lens helps you take a better picture.

Sorry, but I can see FAR more dynamic range with my eyes than my camera sees. Whether it is my brain blending "frames" to achieve it, or individual exposures...the mechanics of how don't matter. When people say 8-11 stops is similar to 10-14 stops, they are ignoring the fact that a stop is factor of two. It's a difference of 8 to 64 TIMES greater tonal range. My eyes see at a minimum 14 stops...from clouds to bark detail in the shadows, which is probably closer to 20 stops than 14 stops. It doesn't matter that my brain is "doing all the work" to blend the information the biological device that is my eye actually receives...I SEE it.

Now, I don't say my eye can see unlimited DR. However an optical viewfinder is not going to limit you further. The OVF itself is effectively unlimited when it comes to DR...so my eyes can operate at maximum capability when looking through an OVF. When it comes to shooting in lower light, with my eye to the viewfinder, being able to utilize the full 24 stop dynamic range potential of my eye...i.e. allow it to adjust to the dimmer light so I can clearly see my subject without noise for the purposes of framing and composition, regardless of whether my camera could see the same thing when read out at 60fps, is a huge boon. Jack up the gain on an EVF or Live View...and what do you get when it comes to darker scenes? Dark...with a lot of noise. This problem is even exacerbated further when doing something like astrophotography...you can't see the night sky in an EVF or on Live View. You might be able to see some of the much brighter low magnitude stars, but overall you can't compose. However I can look through an optical viewfinder and see everything as if I was looking right up at the sky without a camera in front of me. The dynamic range of the human eye is VASTLY superior to the dynamic range of a camera (and an EVF.)


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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #104 on: February 15, 2014, 02:45:52 PM »