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Author Topic: What's Next from Canon?  (Read 103311 times)

Lee Jay

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #165 on: February 17, 2014, 02:38:12 PM »
Obviously there's no JPEG encoding as that would be pointless, but some processing is done because you can change it by changing things like contrast and saturation.  Further, I measured my SX50's lag by shooting 240fps video of both its output and of what it was looking at at the same time and I got right at 25ms in good light.  I don't see how this is possible if it's running at 30fps.
Only 25ms? That's faster than I would have expected.... relatively minimal processing of the signal?

Me too.

Quote
So you are seeing 6 frames delay at 240hz...... How do you know it's 6 frames? It could be anywhere from 5.1 to 6.9 frames delay, or a range from 21ms to 29ms....but yes, that's fast.

I counted frames for a whole bunch of transitions and averaged the result.

Quote
It does not rule out a 30hz refresh rate (33ms) as latency and refresh rate are different things. For example, say the refresh rate was 60hz.... you would get a new frame each 17ms....but if the latency was 25 ms, that means that every 17ms you get an updated frame from what happened 25ms before. if the refresh rate was 30hz, then every 33ms you would get an updated frame from what happened 25ms before.... the latency can be higher or lower than the refresh rate, the two are not inter-dependant.

I think it does, the way I did it, though I can't find my original video right now so I'm not certain.  Since I was averaging, the frame period would have been included.

Quote
If you film something changing quickly with the SX50 and shoot video of the back display of the SX50 at 240hz, how many frames of 240hz do you get per changed frame on the back of the SX50? If you got 8 frames the same on the 240hz recording, that would be a 30hz update rate, 4 frames would mean a 60hz update rate.

I don't know as I didn't try it.  I was using the SX50 in regular, still-frame mode and just using a separate camera at 240fps to video both the LCD on the SX50 and the thing it was looking at, which was a fast-running clock (ms).

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #165 on: February 17, 2014, 02:38:12 PM »

Diko

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #166 on: February 17, 2014, 08:43:34 PM »
Hi....

1/ there is already  lossless jpg ver9 something... could be implemented in any of the next canon bodies (DIGIC 7 or 8 perhaps)

2/ quantum image sensor (QIS) is on the way by the father of APS CMOS. The main obstacle for its research ending is IMO is the current lack of power that would be able to process raw data from the sensor in the terabytes

3/by the time QIS is reality most of us would have lost about half a kilo of brain matter ( so really no folio needed) and will either suffer some neuro related sickness like Parkinson's desease or will be stupid enough to feel overwhelmed with the QIS menu.

And yet here we are and I wonder why there is not even a single person to mention something about FF or MF, which IMO is also partially the topic.

SONY made its MF epic debut and it wasn't with Nikon. Hasselbad and Phase One...aditionally there are rumors about the ex-pentax with their 645 (mark 2) ;) I bet that 44x33 mm CMOS is BI.

BTW SONY's contract with Nikon is about to end this month. Any updates on that one?

So I wounder if the Canon MF beast will come out this year or next... What do you think?

Ps: I hate tablets :))))))
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 08:49:35 PM by Diko »
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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #167 on: February 17, 2014, 09:36:05 PM »
Hi....

1/ there is already  lossless jpg ver9 something... could be implemented in any of the next canon bodies (DIGIC 7 or 8 perhaps)

2/ quantum image sensor (QIS) is on the way by the father of APS CMOS. The main obstacle for its research ending is IMO is the current lack of power that would be able to process raw data from the sensor in the terabytes

3/by the time QIS is reality most of us would have lost about half a kilo of brain matter ( so really no folio needed) and will either suffer some neuro related sickness like Parkinson's desease or will be stupid enough to feel overwhelmed with the QIS menu.

If by QIS you are referring to Eric Fossum's Digital Film Sensor (DFS), that is a very old concept. Almost a decade old now, given this original paper: http://ericfossum.com/Publications/Papers/Gigapixel%20Digital%20Film%20Sensor%20Proposal.pdf

I read that many, many years ago. Very intriguing concept...however it doesn't mean that you actually have a gigapixel sensor. The notion of a digital film is that the sensor works more like actual film which has silver halide grains, wherein the "jots" combine to make up large digital sensor "grains". Under lower illumination where there are fewer incident photons, one jot strike within the region of a grain would "illuminate" the entire grain as if each jot had received a photon. Grains remain large, resolution remains low, SNR is high, noise is low. Technically speaking, this isn't all that different from downsampling a high ISO image in post.

Under high illumination, where photon strikes are frequent, most jots would receive photon strikes. By employing a mechanism to "divide" digital grains, one could dynamically increase resolution, since smaller grains with fewer jots could still achieve a higher SNR. It's most definitely an intriguing concept, but it is also requires technological capabilities beyond what we are currently capable of (at least, as far as image sensor fabs go). Jots are considerably smaller than your average pixel...they would have to be close to deep red wavelength (somewhere between 750 and 800nm...current APS-C pixels are 4000-5000nm, current full frame pixels are 6000-9000nm).

To make an ideal Digital Film Sensor, I'd combine the Jot concept with the Titanium Nitride superconducting material and microwave comb readout to produce a sensor with infinite dynamic range, exact color replication, and effectively the highest resolution possible for an image sensor. The TiN technology is still pretty new, and pixel size is much larger than a jot (the only existing sensor is 44x46 pixels in size), and it still requires cooling in a dewar jar. But it would probably be the best sensor on earth. ;)

And yet here we are and I wonder why there is not even a single person to mention something about FF or MF, which IMO is also partially the topic.

SONY made its MF epic debut and it wasn't with Nikon. Hasselbad and Phase One...aditionally there are rumors about the ex-pentax with their 645 (mark 2) ;) I bet that 44x33 mm CMOS is BI.

BTW SONY's contract with Nikon is about to end this month. Any updates on that one?

So I wounder if the Canon MF beast will come out this year or next... What do you think?

Canon is not in the image sensor market. Canon is in the photography market. Canon doesn't sell sensors, so they wouldn't be selling sensors to Hasselblad or Phase One. Canon would have to bring a compelling medium format camera SYSTEM to market in order to compete with Hasselblad or Phase One. Given how Canon's tentative foray into the low end mirrorless market with a single camera and less than a handful of lenses, they weren't exactly successful.

It takes considerably more upfront resources to develop a complete competitive ecosystem when you are trying to break into an existing market that already has it's dominant players. That's a HUGE risk for Canon to take in order to enter the medium format market. We have already been through the fact that Canon is a conservative company, and they won't take a risk unless they have enough means to reduce it. They also won't take a risk unless the long-term payoff is significant. I see no reason to indicate that Canon should risk an entry into the medium format market right now. Especially now that those big manufacturers are utilizing Sony's currently superior sensor technology...that's even more up-front effort to develop something that is even better than what Sony offers. The sensors, and the optics, would all have to be better enough than the competition (which are already producing solely high-end, top grade products that will be quite difficult to beat as it is) in order to steal sales away.

Canon won't be doing any kind of medium format anything any time soon.

Ps: I hate tablets :))))))

Hmm. Good for you.  ???

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #168 on: February 17, 2014, 09:46:08 PM »
there is already  lossless jpg ver9 something... could be implemented in any of the next canon bodies (DIGIC 7 or 8 perhaps)
There is also a rumour that Canon has lossless RAW file format. :) The problem with any lossless compression is that you end up with large file sizes... If lossless jpg isn't much of a savings over RAW, why bother?
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Diko

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #169 on: February 18, 2014, 02:49:26 AM »
there is already  lossless jpg ver9 something... could be implemented in any of the next canon bodies (DIGIC 7 or 8 perhaps)
There is also a rumour that Canon has lossless RAW file format. :) The problem with any lossless compression is that you end up with large file sizes... If lossless jpg isn't much of a savings over RAW, why bother?
Good to know :D :D :D I mentioned it only due to the chit chat about DR and JPG.



If by QIS you are referring to Eric Fossum's Digital Film Sensor (DFS), that is a very old concept. Almost a decade old now, given this original paper: http://ericfossum.com/Publications/Papers/Gigapixel%20Digital%20Film%20Sensor%20Proposal.pdf

I read that many, many years ago. Very intriguing concept...however it doesn't mean that you actually have a gigapixel sensor. The notion of a digital film is that the sensor works more like actual film which has silver halide grains, wherein the "jots" combine to make up large digital sensor "grains". Under lower illumination where there are fewer incident photons, one jot strike within the region of a grain would "illuminate" the entire grain as if each jot had received a photon. Grains remain large, resolution remains low, SNR is high, noise is low. Technically speaking, this isn't all that different from downsampling a high ISO image in post.

Under high illumination, where photon strikes are frequent, most jots would receive photon strikes. By employing a mechanism to "divide" digital grains, one could dynamically increase resolution, since smaller grains with fewer jots could still achieve a higher SNR. It's most definitely an intriguing concept, but it is also requires technological capabilities beyond what we are currently capable of (at least, as far as image sensor fabs go). Jots are considerably smaller than your average pixel...they would have to be close to deep red wavelength (somewhere between 750 and 800nm...current APS-C pixels are 4000-5000nm, current full frame pixels are 6000-9000nm).

To make an ideal Digital Film Sensor, I'd combine the Jot concept with the Titanium Nitride superconducting material and microwave comb readout to produce a sensor with infinite dynamic range, exact color replication, and effectively the highest resolution possible for an image sensor. The TiN technology is still pretty new, and pixel size is much larger than a jot (the only existing sensor is 44x46 pixels in size), and it still requires cooling in a dewar jar. But it would probably be the best sensor on earth. ;)

Yes I do mean the same concept. These days Fossum calls it QIS. As for the thin film added to APS CMOS innovation from Canada IMO you have the whole concept wrong... No matter how he calls his pixels he claims of gathering 90%of the incident light and what is more important his intend is NOT to put it through ADC descrete process ergo the gigabytes. But even I could be wrong since he and his fellows are researching it as we speak.

Canon is not in the image sensor market. Canon is in the photography market.

....

Canon won't be doing any kind of medium format anything any time soon.

Now , about the last statement are you sure?

http://www.canonrumors.com/?s=medium+format

As for CANON selling sensors...? How on earth did you come up with this one?!? I've returned the topic here What's Next from Canon? by mentioning the competitors and reminding of some old Canon rumors that for number of reasons I believe or at least hope to be true.

Canon is making its own in house developed sensors and having in mind the CR MF rumors... I would love to hear what you think about it :-)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 11:17:56 AM by Diko »
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tron

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #170 on: February 18, 2014, 07:24:05 AM »
Canon won't be doing any kind of medium format anything any time soon.
Now , about the last statement are you sure?
http://www.canonrumors.com/?s=medium+format

A CR1 that is based on NL site is hardly something to take seriously...

Diko

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #171 on: February 18, 2014, 11:09:28 AM »
Canon won't be doing any kind of medium format anything any time soon.
Now , about the last statement are you sure?
http://www.canonrumors.com/?s=medium+format

A CR1 that is based on NL site is hardly something to take seriously...
:-) I will agree with you about the site renomee, since I am not very into the tech rumor business. :-)

Have in mind that a third (SONY developed MF CMOS) player, the Pentax (now RICOH IMAGING645D, is a fact now.

IF you have the first APSH 120 MP and the biggest in-house developed CMOS sensor (202 х 205 mm or 7,95 х 8,07 inches) since 2007 it is quite a feasible option.

To be the biggest DSLR vendor without MF body? IMO not an option. At least not after in-house developed BIG CMOS is already existing.

And btw I have a speculation why this is happening now. Aside from the years for everyone to improve CMOS logic there is one major factor. A transition among the big players has begun to 18 (450mm) wafers. Even on a 11,8 inch (300mm) wafer one could make about 30 CMOS 44x33 (taken the SONY's size which is actually 1.5 crop MF).

In times when even Fujifilm is in the FF market I believe a slow entering in MF market is an viable option for more profit. I even believe it to be a trend.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 11:13:10 AM by Diko »
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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #171 on: February 18, 2014, 11:09:28 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #172 on: February 18, 2014, 11:46:35 AM »
IF you have the first APSH 120 MP and the biggest in-house developed CMOS sensor (202 х 205 mm or 7,95 х 8,07 inches) since 2007 it is quite a feasible option.

To be the biggest DSLR vendor without MF body? IMO not an option.

Sure, it's a feasible option.  The real question is, is it a profitable option?  The MF market size is miniscule compared to the dSLR market.  How minuscule?  Granted, exact figures aren't available for MF.  But…in 2013, there were close to 14,000,000 dSLRs sold worldwide.  Stephen Shulz, head of Leica's photo division, estimated that the annual worldwide market, all brands, is just 6,000 MF cameras.  14 million vs. 6 thousand. 

You're suggesting it's 'not an option' for Canon to skip involvement in a market that constitutes less than 0.05% of their dSLR market size?  Sorry, I think it's a very reasonable option for them not to care about a market that moves less units worldwide than Canon probably sells per year at a single Costco retail outlet.   ::)

That's not to say that they won't get involved.  After all, they sell supertele lenses at rates that are a fraction of a percent of the unit sales of their popular EF-S kit lenses.  But those big white lenses are walking advertisements for Canon, on the sidelines of every major sporting event televised in millions of homes.  Whereas a few thousand large black cameras aren't going to have any significant spillover marketing impact.
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Sella174

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #173 on: February 18, 2014, 12:17:16 PM »
... estimated that the annual worldwide market, all brands, is just 6,000 MF cameras.  14 million vs. 6 thousand. 

Gee, I wouldn't mind a market of just 6000 sales per year for my own products.  :D

On the other hand, 14 million sales per year ... well, I suppose that's the upside of runaway over-population.  ;D
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neuroanatomist

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #174 on: February 18, 2014, 12:21:56 PM »
Gee, I wouldn't mind a market of just 6000 sales per year for my own products.

Yeah, but I'm guessing you're not a Fortune 500 company with a $35B market cap, right?   ;)
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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #175 on: February 18, 2014, 12:34:13 PM »
Gee, I wouldn't mind a market of just 6000 sales per year for my own products.

Yeah, but I'm guessing you're not a Fortune 500 company with a $35B market cap, right?   ;)

I'd guess the proper words here should be -

"you're not a Fortune 500 company with a $35B market cap with a forum where one can bitch about almost everything you do"  ;D
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Sella174

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #176 on: February 18, 2014, 12:36:40 PM »
Yeah, but I'm guessing you're not a Fortune 500 company with a $35B market cap, right?   ;)

What, with our lousy exchange rate against the US dollar?

But on the other hand, our billion is a 1000 times more than your billion. So, for a market cap of US$35B ... times ten for the exchange rate ... that makes it ZAR350 milliard ... mmmmmm ... doable ... definitely doable ... ;D
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 02:18:58 AM by Sella174 »
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jrista

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #177 on: February 18, 2014, 12:47:43 PM »
there is already  lossless jpg ver9 something... could be implemented in any of the next canon bodies (DIGIC 7 or 8 perhaps)
There is also a rumour that Canon has lossless RAW file format. :) The problem with any lossless compression is that you end up with large file sizes... If lossless jpg isn't much of a savings over RAW, why bother?
Good to know :D :D :D I mentioned it only due to the chit chat about DR and JPG.



If by QIS you are referring to Eric Fossum's Digital Film Sensor (DFS), that is a very old concept. Almost a decade old now, given this original paper: http://ericfossum.com/Publications/Papers/Gigapixel%20Digital%20Film%20Sensor%20Proposal.pdf

I read that many, many years ago. Very intriguing concept...however it doesn't mean that you actually have a gigapixel sensor. The notion of a digital film is that the sensor works more like actual film which has silver halide grains, wherein the "jots" combine to make up large digital sensor "grains". Under lower illumination where there are fewer incident photons, one jot strike within the region of a grain would "illuminate" the entire grain as if each jot had received a photon. Grains remain large, resolution remains low, SNR is high, noise is low. Technically speaking, this isn't all that different from downsampling a high ISO image in post.

Under high illumination, where photon strikes are frequent, most jots would receive photon strikes. By employing a mechanism to "divide" digital grains, one could dynamically increase resolution, since smaller grains with fewer jots could still achieve a higher SNR. It's most definitely an intriguing concept, but it is also requires technological capabilities beyond what we are currently capable of (at least, as far as image sensor fabs go). Jots are considerably smaller than your average pixel...they would have to be close to deep red wavelength (somewhere between 750 and 800nm...current APS-C pixels are 4000-5000nm, current full frame pixels are 6000-9000nm).

To make an ideal Digital Film Sensor, I'd combine the Jot concept with the Titanium Nitride superconducting material and microwave comb readout to produce a sensor with infinite dynamic range, exact color replication, and effectively the highest resolution possible for an image sensor. The TiN technology is still pretty new, and pixel size is much larger than a jot (the only existing sensor is 44x46 pixels in size), and it still requires cooling in a dewar jar. But it would probably be the best sensor on earth. ;)

Yes I do mean the same concept. These days Fossum calls it QIS. As for the thin film added to APS CMOS innovation from Canada IMO you have the whole concept wrong... No matter how he calls his pixels he claims of gathering 90%of the incident light and what is more important his intend is NOT to put it through ADC descrete process ergo the gigabytes. But even I could be wrong since he and his fellows are researching it as we speak.

The Q.E. is indeed high. I don't know about 90%, even with a BSI design unless he is supercooling, there is going to be a certain amount of loss due to dark current.

Having a high Q.E., however, does not change the notion of digital grains. In the presence of low light, you have low incident photon counts. The whole entire DFS/QIS design is based not just on jots, but on the fact that jots are organized into dynamic grains. In low light, all it takes is ONE jot to receive a photon in a grain for the ENTIRE grain to be activated. Let's say grains start out containing 400 jots each (20x20, a 16µm pixels...HUGE). Lets say were shooting in very low light, starlight. The moment one jot in each 20x20 size grain receives a few photons (lets say 50% Q.E., so two photons), then all 400 of those jots are marked as active! So, under low light, it might seem as though you actually received 800 photons, rather than just two! Big difference...you are now simulating the reception of a lot of light, however it is at the cost of resolution. At 16µm a grain, your resolution is going to be pretty low by modern standards...roughly 3.375mp.

Now, lets say a crescent or half moon comes out, and we take the same picture again. We have about two to three more stops of light. Instead of two incident photons, we now have ~8 incident photons per grain. Lets say a dynamic grain division is set at 8 photons. Once our jots receive and convert eight photons, our grains all split. We now have four times the resolution (10x10 grains, or 100 jots per grain, four times as many grains). We have a stronger signal overall, but roughly the same signal per grain as we did before. However we now have an image with four times as many megapixels, 13.5mp to be exact.

Now a full moon is out, and we take the same picture. We have another two stops of light. We get about 32 incident photons. Our grain size is now 5x5, or 25 jots per grain. Our resolution has quadrupled again. Same overall SNR, but our image resolution is 54mp.

This is what Eric Fossum has designed. A totally dynamic sensor that adjusts itself based on the amount of incident light, maintaining relative signal strength and SNR regardless of how much light is actually present. It does this by dynamically reconfiguring the actual resolution of the device...very low light, very low resolution, low light, low resolution, adequate light, good resolution, tons of light, tons of resolution. Technologically it is pretty advanced, conceptually it is relatively strait forward.

I've greatly exagerrated the scenario above...you wouldn't be able to have 54mp under moonlight. You would probably have something closer to 0.8mp under starlight, maybe 3mp under full moonlight, 13.5mp under morning or evening light, and maybe finally be able to achieve 54mp under full midday sunlight.

Canon is not in the image sensor market. Canon is in the photography market.

....

Canon won't be doing any kind of medium format anything any time soon.

Now , about the last statement are you sure?

Absolutely. I'm 100% sure. It makes no sense for Canon to try to break into a niche market that already has not only it's dominant players, but dominant players with a HELL of a LOT of loyalty among their customers. There have been Canon MF rumors for years. I remember reading MF rumors here back in the 2005 era. Nothing has ever come of them, despite how often Northlight tends to drag the subject back out.

The only way Canon could make a compelling entry into MF is if they launched an entire MFD system. Cameras with interchangable backs, image sensors that at least rival but preferably surpass the IQ of the Sony MF 50mp, a wide range of extremely high quality glass (they are certainly capable here, but it still is a MASSIVE R&D effort), and a whole range of necessary and essential accessories like flash. Canon has to do this all UP FRONT, on their own dime, to cover the massive R&D effort to build an entirely new system of cameras that can compete in an already well established market.

Now, they've done that once. They did it with Cinema EOS. But the cinema market is a lot broader with more players, and is a significant growth market with the potential for significant long-term gains, even for a new entrant like Canon. The medium format market is not a growth market. It's a relatively steady market, that has its very few players and it's loyal customers. Since there are so few players who already dominate the market, breaking in for a new player like Canon would be a drain on resources, and there is absolutely zero guarantee of any long-term payoff.

So, yes, I'm sure. Canon won't be offering a medium format camera any time soon.

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #177 on: February 18, 2014, 12:47:43 PM »

Diko

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #178 on: February 18, 2014, 04:53:30 PM »

The Q.E. is indeed high. I don't know about 90%, even with a BSI design unless he is supercooling, there is going to be a certain amount of loss due to dark current.
Actually that is the idea: the Q.E. to be at almost 100%. Here is an extract of some more recent materials about QIS:

Fossum writes:
QIS "vision" is to count every photon that hits the sensor, recording its location and arrival time, and create pixels from bit-planes of data.

That sounds to me as 100% Quantum Efficiency ;-) No?

Having a high Q.E., however, does not change the notion of digital grains. In the presence of low light, you have low incident photon counts. The whole entire DFS/QIS design is based not just on jots, but on the fact that jots are organized into dynamic grains. In low light, all it takes is ONE jot to receive a photon in a grain for the ENTIRE grain to be activated. Let's say grains start out containing 400 jots each (20x20, a 16µm pixels...HUGE). Lets say were shooting in very low light, starlight. The moment one jot in each 20x20 size grain receives a few photons (lets say 50% Q.E., so two photons), then all 400 of those jots are marked as active! So, under low light, it might seem as though you actually received 800 photons, rather than just two! Big difference...you are now simulating the reception of a lot of light, however it is at the cost of resolution. At 16µm a grain, your resolution is going to be pretty low by modern standards...roughly 3.375mp.

Now, lets say a crescent or half moon comes out, and we take the same picture again. We have about two to three more stops of light. Instead of two incident photons, we now have ~8 incident photons per grain. Lets say a dynamic grain division is set at 8 photons. Once our jots receive and convert eight photons, our grains all split. We now have four times the resolution (10x10 grains, or 100 jots per grain, four times as many grains). We have a stronger signal overall, but roughly the same signal per grain as we did before. However we now have an image with four times as many megapixels, 13.5mp to be exact.

Now a full moon is out, and we take the same picture. We have another two stops of light. We get about 32 incident photons. Our grain size is now 5x5, or 25 jots per grain. Our resolution has quadrupled again. Same overall SNR, but our image resolution is 54mp.

This is what Eric Fossum has designed. A totally dynamic sensor that adjusts itself based on the amount of incident light, maintaining relative signal strength and SNR regardless of how much light is actually present. It does this by dynamically reconfiguring the actual resolution of the device...very low light, very low resolution, low light, low resolution, adequate light, good resolution, tons of light, tons of resolution. Technologically it is pretty advanced, conceptually it is relatively strait forward.

I've greatly exagerrated the scenario above...you wouldn't be able to have 54mp under moonlight. You would probably have something closer to 0.8mp under starlight, maybe 3mp under full moonlight, 13.5mp under morning or evening light, and maybe finally be able to achieve 54mp under full midday sunlight.

Actually he intends to put more than 4K jots in 1 pixel :D :D :D  However I believe:
 
1/ your info might be a little out-of-date.

2/ Fossum knows what he is doing if he is doing it for more than 10 years now. And he already has created something befre (the CMOS).

3/ I hope you will agree that we both are a little bit behind - no matter how much we know, with our understanding of this TO-EMERGE technology ;-)

Here is some more recent presentations:

2012
2013

...
Absolutely. I'm 100% sure. It makes no sense for Canon to try to break into a niche market that already has not only it's dominant players, but dominant players with a HELL of a LOT of loyalty among their customers. There have been Canon MF rumors for years. I remember reading MF rumors here back in the 2005 era. Nothing has ever come of them, despite how often Northlight tends to drag the subject back out.

The only way Canon could make a compelling entry into MF is if they launched an entire MFD system. Cameras with interchangable backs, image sensors that at least rival but preferably surpass the IQ of the Sony MF 50mp, a wide range of extremely high quality glass (they are certainly capable here, but it still is a MASSIVE R&D effort), and a whole range of necessary and essential accessories like flash. Canon has to do this all UP FRONT, on their own dime, to cover the massive R&D effort to build an entirely new system of cameras that can compete in an already well established market.

Now, they've done that once. They did it with Cinema EOS. But the cinema market is a lot broader with more players, and is a significant growth market with the potential for significant long-term gains, even for a new entrant like Canon. The medium format market is not a growth market. It's a relatively steady market, that has its very few players and it's loyal customers. Since there are so few players who already dominate the market, breaking in for a new player like Canon would be a drain on resources, and there is absolutely zero guarantee of any long-term payoff.

So, yes, I'm sure. Canon won't be offering a medium format camera any time soon.
OK.
 - Yes about SYSTEM, of course. I have never imagined CANON selling digital backs, or sensors to anyone :-))))
 - Yes about glass
 - No about light
 - Perhaps CANON has been in the MF R&D since 2001 with the introducing of 12"' Si wafer
Let us not forget the BIG SENSOR or the BIG 120 MPs APS-H sensor - the 2007 success?

Silicon Wafer Sizes Trend The picture I provide is more relevant to intel then to SONY or CANONn and yet it is a trend:


Let me make another comparison exactly with the small Cinema EOS success. It's like an early bird. FF sensor from DSLR equipment against ARRI, RED & SONY APS-C Cinema solutions..... Hmmm... Who knows... ;-) Extra dollar is always welcomed. Even if it is from 0.5 market share. If CANON succeeds to sell 2k MF bodies in 3 years, let's say 10K$ each.... 2 million extra dollars... I ask

WHY NOT? ;-)

... But…in 2013, there were close to 14,000,000 dSLRs sold worldwide.  Stephen Shulz, head of Leica's photo division, estimated that the annual worldwide market, all brands, is just 6,000 MF cameras.  14 million vs. 6 thousand.
 

NEURO, Could you be so kind to provide some links for those statistics about the 14 million DSLRs sold in 2013. I can put them in good use for personal doings :-)

Thank you in advance.   :)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 04:55:47 PM by Diko »
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neuroanatomist

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #179 on: February 18, 2014, 05:33:27 PM »
NEURO, Could you be so kind to provide some links for those statistics about the 14 million DSLRs sold in 2013. I can put them in good use for personal doings :-)

Thank you in advance.   :)

CIPA aggregates the data, there are many years' worth here:

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html

Enjoy!
EOS 1D X, EOS M2, lots of lenses
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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #179 on: February 18, 2014, 05:33:27 PM »