July 30, 2014, 08:05:34 AM

Author Topic: What's Next from Canon?  (Read 27197 times)

neuroanatomist

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #225 on: March 04, 2014, 10:06:12 PM »
... what everyone means is they want Canon with a better sensor then Sony's.

Who is 'everyone'?  The same 'everyone' who are buying more Canon dSLRs than Nikon dSLRs (and far more than Sony dSLRs and MILCs)? 

Canon cares about the 'everyone' that actually buys cameras, not the 'everyone' who complains on the Internet about slightly lower metrics in one specific aspect of camera performance.
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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #225 on: March 04, 2014, 10:06:12 PM »

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #226 on: March 04, 2014, 10:09:55 PM »
Touchscreens came out on the 70D and you can bet that the 6D2, 7D2, 5D4, and 1DX2 will have it.

Minor correction. The 650D/T4i was Canon's first DSLR with touchscreen. Whether the 5D4 and 1DX2 will be equipped with touchscreens depends on performance of those screens under weather testing. :)

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #227 on: March 04, 2014, 10:44:16 PM »
Touchscreens came out on the 70D and you can bet that the 6D2, 7D2, 5D4, and 1DX2 will have it.

Minor correction. The 650D/T4i was Canon's first DSLR with touchscreen. Whether the 5D4 and 1DX2 will be equipped with touchscreens depends on performance of those screens under weather testing. :)

My opening line was "for clarity, I will ignore Rebels, EOS-M, and SL-1 and concentrate on the higher end cameras" :)

Weatherproofing of a touchscreen is the same as for a "normal" screen. Even articulated screens can be easily weathersealed.

The convenience of touch controls will be hard to resist. Tap the screen to select an object to focus on... double tap to select an area to meter on.... longer tap to select white balance, etc etc..  this coupled with the existing buttons and dials makes for a killer interface.
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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #228 on: March 05, 2014, 06:58:05 AM »
My opening line was "for clarity, I will ignore Rebels, EOS-M, and SL-1 and concentrate on the higher end cameras" :)
Sorry I missed that. :)

Weatherproofing of a touchscreen is the same as for a "normal" screen. Even articulated screens can be easily weathersealed.

It's understandable that entry level cameras do not have articulate screens for pricing reasons. However, none of Canon or Nikon's high end, weather sealed cameras has articulate screens. Only the enthusiast cameras get them: 650D/700D/60D/70D/5100/5200/5300.

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #229 on: March 05, 2014, 04:30:51 PM »
Touchscreens came out on the 70D and you can bet that the 6D2, 7D2, 5D4, and 1DX2 will have it.

Minor correction. The 650D/T4i was Canon's first DSLR with touchscreen. Whether the 5D4 and 1DX2 will be equipped with touchscreens depends on performance of those screens under weather testing. :)

My opening line was "for clarity, I will ignore Rebels, EOS-M, and SL-1 and concentrate on the higher end cameras" :)

Weatherproofing of a touchscreen is the same as for a "normal" screen. Even articulated screens can be easily weathersealed.

The convenience of touch controls will be hard to resist. Tap the screen to select an object to focus on... double tap to select an area to meter on.... longer tap to select white balance, etc etc..  this coupled with the existing buttons and dials makes for a killer interface.

The problem with weatehrsealing an articulating screen isn't whether it can or cannot BE weathersealed. The problems is that you have to seal a joint, which means wear on the seal, which means it had the potential to break down and break at some point. Worse, you generally wouldn't know that the seal was broken, which actually greatly increases the chance that you might ruin your camera by using it in the kind of extreme conditions that you would never use a non-weathersealed camera.

There is a very specific reason why the 1D X, which has the best weathersealing of any Canon DSLR, does not use a main rotatable dial and opts for buttons instead. The wear on a seal with a rotatable dial is greater than wear on a seal with depressable buttons.
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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #230 on: March 05, 2014, 05:26:48 PM »
There is a very specific reason why the 1D X, which has the best weathersealing of any Canon DSLR, does not use a main rotatable dial and opts for buttons instead. The wear on a seal with a rotatable dial is greater than wear on a seal with depressable buttons.

FYI the thing you're talking about is called a mode dial. The dial on top close to the shutter button is called the main dial and that one is not missing on the 1D X.

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #231 on: March 05, 2014, 07:47:26 PM »
Touchscreens came out on the 70D and you can bet that the 6D2, 7D2, 5D4, and 1DX2 will have it.

Minor correction. The 650D/T4i was Canon's first DSLR with touchscreen. Whether the 5D4 and 1DX2 will be equipped with touchscreens depends on performance of those screens under weather testing. :)

My opening line was "for clarity, I will ignore Rebels, EOS-M, and SL-1 and concentrate on the higher end cameras" :)

Weatherproofing of a touchscreen is the same as for a "normal" screen. Even articulated screens can be easily weathersealed.

The convenience of touch controls will be hard to resist. Tap the screen to select an object to focus on... double tap to select an area to meter on.... longer tap to select white balance, etc etc..  this coupled with the existing buttons and dials makes for a killer interface.

The problem with weatehrsealing an articulating screen isn't whether it can or cannot BE weathersealed. The problems is that you have to seal a joint, which means wear on the seal, which means it had the potential to break down and break at some point. Worse, you generally wouldn't know that the seal was broken, which actually greatly increases the chance that you might ruin your camera by using it in the kind of extreme conditions that you would never use a non-weathersealed camera.

There is a very specific reason why the 1D X, which has the best weathersealing of any Canon DSLR, does not use a main rotatable dial and opts for buttons instead. The wear on a seal with a rotatable dial is greater than wear on a seal with depressable buttons.

You don't seal the joints.... you seal after the joints so the seal is somewhere that does not move and wear out...

Also, nobody ever said that if the 1DX got a touchscreen that it would be a tilt-swivel screen. My bet is that it gets a touchscreen and it is fixed in place like the current one.
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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #231 on: March 05, 2014, 07:47:26 PM »

jrista

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #232 on: March 05, 2014, 08:13:23 PM »
Touchscreens came out on the 70D and you can bet that the 6D2, 7D2, 5D4, and 1DX2 will have it.

Minor correction. The 650D/T4i was Canon's first DSLR with touchscreen. Whether the 5D4 and 1DX2 will be equipped with touchscreens depends on performance of those screens under weather testing. :)

My opening line was "for clarity, I will ignore Rebels, EOS-M, and SL-1 and concentrate on the higher end cameras" :)

Weatherproofing of a touchscreen is the same as for a "normal" screen. Even articulated screens can be easily weathersealed.

The convenience of touch controls will be hard to resist. Tap the screen to select an object to focus on... double tap to select an area to meter on.... longer tap to select white balance, etc etc..  this coupled with the existing buttons and dials makes for a killer interface.

The problem with weatehrsealing an articulating screen isn't whether it can or cannot BE weathersealed. The problems is that you have to seal a joint, which means wear on the seal, which means it had the potential to break down and break at some point. Worse, you generally wouldn't know that the seal was broken, which actually greatly increases the chance that you might ruin your camera by using it in the kind of extreme conditions that you would never use a non-weathersealed camera.

There is a very specific reason why the 1D X, which has the best weathersealing of any Canon DSLR, does not use a main rotatable dial and opts for buttons instead. The wear on a seal with a rotatable dial is greater than wear on a seal with depressable buttons.

You don't seal the joints.... you seal after the joints so the seal is somewhere that does not move and wear out...

Also, nobody ever said that if the 1DX got a touchscreen that it would be a tilt-swivel screen. My bet is that it gets a touchscreen and it is fixed in place like the current one.

You can't do that, though. The joint is what contains the electronic ribbons that transfer data from the main board to the LCD screen. You have to seal the ENTIRE thing...you can't slip the ribbon through some unsealed slot, that would effectively nullify all of the sealing.

There is no articulating screen with the same level of weather sealing as the 5D III and 1D X currently have. It just isn't going to happen. Not to mention the overall fragility of an articulating screen in the kinds of extreme situations that those cameras can be used in. I've hauled my 7D through thick brush and brambles, dropped it in the mud, had it even topple over onto hard ice on my ultra light weight Gitzo tripod because of 60mph high winds up in the mountains during winter a couple years ago. If I'd had an articulating screen, my 7D would have gone bust a LOOONG time ago. I just walked in the door about 10 minutes ago...at the moment, my 7D is once again covered in mud. :P It's just the name of the game...if you want to get anything remotely resembling a true professional bird or wildlife shot (and I'm not saying I've ever achieved that goal yet), you just plain and simply have to crawl through the thickets and mid and get really dirty.

"Articulating screens" and "rugged" or "weather sealed" can't be placed in the same sentence when it isn't pure irony. I understand all the arguments for them in high end models, but I think anyone who actually buys one of Canon's xD models where part of their decision is based on the ruggedness and weather sealing of the body, if they had a choice, they would NEVER choose the option to have an articulating screen.
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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #233 on: March 05, 2014, 08:22:14 PM »
There is no articulating screen with the same level of weather sealing as the 5D III and 1D X currently have. It just isn't going to happen.


http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/1/29/olympus-launches-stylus-tough-tg-850-underwater-camera

Not a true articulating screen, but the real question is durability.

Many "isn't going to happen" assertions have been disproven; the jury is still out on this one.

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #234 on: March 05, 2014, 08:50:49 PM »
Touchscreens came out on the 70D and you can bet that the 6D2, 7D2, 5D4, and 1DX2 will have it.

Minor correction. The 650D/T4i was Canon's first DSLR with touchscreen. Whether the 5D4 and 1DX2 will be equipped with touchscreens depends on performance of those screens under weather testing. :)

My opening line was "for clarity, I will ignore Rebels, EOS-M, and SL-1 and concentrate on the higher end cameras" :)

Weatherproofing of a touchscreen is the same as for a "normal" screen. Even articulated screens can be easily weathersealed.

The convenience of touch controls will be hard to resist. Tap the screen to select an object to focus on... double tap to select an area to meter on.... longer tap to select white balance, etc etc..  this coupled with the existing buttons and dials makes for a killer interface.

The problem with weatehrsealing an articulating screen isn't whether it can or cannot BE weathersealed. The problems is that you have to seal a joint, which means wear on the seal, which means it had the potential to break down and break at some point. Worse, you generally wouldn't know that the seal was broken, which actually greatly increases the chance that you might ruin your camera by using it in the kind of extreme conditions that you would never use a non-weathersealed camera.

There is a very specific reason why the 1D X, which has the best weathersealing of any Canon DSLR, does not use a main rotatable dial and opts for buttons instead. The wear on a seal with a rotatable dial is greater than wear on a seal with depressable buttons.

You don't seal the joints.... you seal after the joints so the seal is somewhere that does not move and wear out...

Also, nobody ever said that if the 1DX got a touchscreen that it would be a tilt-swivel screen. My bet is that it gets a touchscreen and it is fixed in place like the current one.

You can't do that, though. The joint is what contains the electronic ribbons that transfer data from the main board to the LCD screen. You have to seal the ENTIRE thing...you can't slip the ribbon through some unsealed slot, that would effectively nullify all of the sealing.

There is no articulating screen with the same level of weather sealing as the 5D III and 1D X currently have. It just isn't going to happen. Not to mention the overall fragility of an articulating screen in the kinds of extreme situations that those cameras can be used in. I've hauled my 7D through thick brush and brambles, dropped it in the mud, had it even topple over onto hard ice on my ultra light weight Gitzo tripod because of 60mph high winds up in the mountains during winter a couple years ago. If I'd had an articulating screen, my 7D would have gone bust a LOOONG time ago. I just walked in the door about 10 minutes ago...at the moment, my 7D is once again covered in mud. :P It's just the name of the game...if you want to get anything remotely resembling a true professional bird or wildlife shot (and I'm not saying I've ever achieved that goal yet), you just plain and simply have to crawl through the thickets and mid and get really dirty.

"Articulating screens" and "rugged" or "weather sealed" can't be placed in the same sentence when it isn't pure irony. I understand all the arguments for them in high end models, but I think anyone who actually buys one of Canon's xD models where part of their decision is based on the ruggedness and weather sealing of the body, if they had a choice, they would NEVER choose the option to have an articulating screen.
Three different issues are getting mixed up here.

First: Sealing
The ribbon passes through a seal before it gets to the joint. At that place, nothing is moving and the seal will not wear out. Likewise, where the ribbon enters the display, the seal is after the joint and it does not  move or wear out the seal.

Ruggedized laptops have been doing this for 20 years.

Second: Does a tilt/swivel screen belong.
This is a matter of opinion and there is no right or wrong answer. My personal belief is that a tilt/swivel screen belongs on the lower end models and that it does not belong on a 1DX. As you have said, the 1DX is about ruggedness. It is a camera that is designed to take a beating and movable screens are not going to survive that beating.

Also, the introduction of wireless and (hopefully) decent apps move your tilt/swivel screen to your phone...

Third: touch screens.
Touch screens can be sealed every bit as easily as a non-touch screen. Just because it is a touch screen does not mean it is a tilt/swivel touch screen.
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jrista

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #235 on: March 06, 2014, 12:00:46 AM »
Touchscreens came out on the 70D and you can bet that the 6D2, 7D2, 5D4, and 1DX2 will have it.

Minor correction. The 650D/T4i was Canon's first DSLR with touchscreen. Whether the 5D4 and 1DX2 will be equipped with touchscreens depends on performance of those screens under weather testing. :)

My opening line was "for clarity, I will ignore Rebels, EOS-M, and SL-1 and concentrate on the higher end cameras" :)

Weatherproofing of a touchscreen is the same as for a "normal" screen. Even articulated screens can be easily weathersealed.

The convenience of touch controls will be hard to resist. Tap the screen to select an object to focus on... double tap to select an area to meter on.... longer tap to select white balance, etc etc..  this coupled with the existing buttons and dials makes for a killer interface.

The problem with weatehrsealing an articulating screen isn't whether it can or cannot BE weathersealed. The problems is that you have to seal a joint, which means wear on the seal, which means it had the potential to break down and break at some point. Worse, you generally wouldn't know that the seal was broken, which actually greatly increases the chance that you might ruin your camera by using it in the kind of extreme conditions that you would never use a non-weathersealed camera.

There is a very specific reason why the 1D X, which has the best weathersealing of any Canon DSLR, does not use a main rotatable dial and opts for buttons instead. The wear on a seal with a rotatable dial is greater than wear on a seal with depressable buttons.

You don't seal the joints.... you seal after the joints so the seal is somewhere that does not move and wear out...

Also, nobody ever said that if the 1DX got a touchscreen that it would be a tilt-swivel screen. My bet is that it gets a touchscreen and it is fixed in place like the current one.

You can't do that, though. The joint is what contains the electronic ribbons that transfer data from the main board to the LCD screen. You have to seal the ENTIRE thing...you can't slip the ribbon through some unsealed slot, that would effectively nullify all of the sealing.

There is no articulating screen with the same level of weather sealing as the 5D III and 1D X currently have. It just isn't going to happen. Not to mention the overall fragility of an articulating screen in the kinds of extreme situations that those cameras can be used in. I've hauled my 7D through thick brush and brambles, dropped it in the mud, had it even topple over onto hard ice on my ultra light weight Gitzo tripod because of 60mph high winds up in the mountains during winter a couple years ago. If I'd had an articulating screen, my 7D would have gone bust a LOOONG time ago. I just walked in the door about 10 minutes ago...at the moment, my 7D is once again covered in mud. :P It's just the name of the game...if you want to get anything remotely resembling a true professional bird or wildlife shot (and I'm not saying I've ever achieved that goal yet), you just plain and simply have to crawl through the thickets and mid and get really dirty.

"Articulating screens" and "rugged" or "weather sealed" can't be placed in the same sentence when it isn't pure irony. I understand all the arguments for them in high end models, but I think anyone who actually buys one of Canon's xD models where part of their decision is based on the ruggedness and weather sealing of the body, if they had a choice, they would NEVER choose the option to have an articulating screen.
Three different issues are getting mixed up here.

First: Sealing
The ribbon passes through a seal before it gets to the joint. At that place, nothing is moving and the seal will not wear out. Likewise, where the ribbon enters the display, the seal is after the joint and it does not  move or wear out the seal.

Ruggedized laptops have been doing this for 20 years.

Second: Does a tilt/swivel screen belong.
This is a matter of opinion and there is no right or wrong answer. My personal belief is that a tilt/swivel screen belongs on the lower end models and that it does not belong on a 1DX. As you have said, the 1DX is about ruggedness. It is a camera that is designed to take a beating and movable screens are not going to survive that beating.

Also, the introduction of wireless and (hopefully) decent apps move your tilt/swivel screen to your phone...

Third: touch screens.
Touch screens can be sealed every bit as easily as a non-touch screen. Just because it is a touch screen does not mean it is a tilt/swivel touch screen.

For the ribbon to pass through the seal, the seal has to be cut. That makes the seal useless. You don't seal the camera and seal the LCD separately, with an unsealed electronic ribbon cable passing through the joint. For one, the ribbon would then be succeptible to shorting out if you use the camera in the rain. Worse, you've had to slice into the seal to allow the ribbon through...the ribbon can then be threaded through that...but, moisture, dust, and god only knows what else is ALSO going to get through. You could try gluing the ribbon around the seal slit, but then you have glue around an unstable ribbon that is going to slide back and forth through the slit...and glue wears out even faster. The only way to fully seal it is to have the seal reach through the joint from the camera body into the LCD screen, fully encasing the ribbon.

There is no weather sealing the way you've described with an articulating screen. Just not gonna happen. Even if you did fully seal the entire joint, such a camera still couldn't be graded with the same level of sealing as a 5D III...because now you have a seal around a wear point in the camera.

And there is still the whole ruggedness issue (the fact that Olympus launched some tiny little waterproof camera with an articulating screen only says that someone put an articulating screen on an underwater camera...it says NOTHING of the screens durability or the seal's reliability over the life of the camera.)

As for the touch screen, I'm all for it...so long as it is NOT articulating. ;P If a reliable wifi remote viewing app comes along, I'm all for that, too. It would be awesome to use my 10.6" Surface Pro tablet screen for focusing macro shots. But it would have to come along, and be reliable, for me to believe it's possible. To date, it seems the 6D's wifi is pretty sketchy, and Canon regularly kills it to save power.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #236 on: March 06, 2014, 12:36:55 AM »
@jrista, did you note the product linked above?



LCD on a hinge joint, waterproof to 10m/33' - that's a little deeper than I'd take my 1D X...  ;)
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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #237 on: March 06, 2014, 01:18:39 AM »
@jrista, did you note the product linked above?



LCD on a hinge joint, waterproof to 10m/33' - that's a little deeper than I'd take my 1D X...  ;)


I did, and I quote myself:

Quote
And there is still the whole ruggedness issue (the fact that Olympus launched some tiny little waterproof camera with an articulating screen only says that someone put an articulating screen on an underwater camera...it says NOTHING of the screens durability or the seal's reliability over the life of the camera.)


Just because someone stuck an articulating screen on an underwater camera doesn't mean it will last. That's the whole point. You buy a weather sealed camera so it will LAST, so it will handle the kind of insane crap professionals throw at their gear every time they take them out. Weathersealing isn't about convenience. It's about durability and reliability. I GUARANTEE you, if my 7D had an articulating screen, it would have broken off entirely a long time ago. I just can't think about that kind of crap when I'm out in the field trying to get a shot.

And I know I'm FAR more protective of my gear than many professional bird and wildlife photographers. If I get mud on it, I tend to try and wipe it off in the field...most pros who get mud on their 1D X's would just laugh at me if they saw me doing that.

Just because it CAN be done...doesn't mean it SHOULD be done. It compromises the durability and reliability of the product. On something like the little Olympus, that's a consumer-grade product (a fact that is further enhanced by the remote ocean island paradise pictured in it's little articulating screen)...it doesn't matter how durable it is. The thing is as likely to be replaced in a year anyway as it is to be broken. On a 1D X? 5D III? 7D II? Nah. Articulating screens have NO place on a product that is built to be robust.

The day Canon adds articulating screens to their xD line of products is the day I jump ship.
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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #237 on: March 06, 2014, 01:18:39 AM »

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #238 on: March 06, 2014, 01:53:06 AM »
The conductors inside the ribbon is sealed  by the material of the ribbon already. Therefore the sealing at the joint for the ribbon will not be needed.

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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #239 on: March 06, 2014, 05:13:09 AM »
The conductors inside the ribbon is sealed  by the material of the ribbon already. Therefore the sealing at the joint for the ribbon will not be needed.

The point isn't to seal the ribbon itself. The point is to avoid having to break the camera seal to allow the ribbon to pass through it. Why doesn't anyone get this? It's really simple and strait forward. You cannot seal a camera if you slice open the seal to pass a ribbon cable through it.
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Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #239 on: March 06, 2014, 05:13:09 AM »