October 01, 2014, 07:00:18 AM

Author Topic: What's Next from Canon?  (Read 29627 times)

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14527
    • View Profile
Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #240 on: March 06, 2014, 08:29:10 AM »
The point isn't to seal the ribbon itself. The point is to avoid having to break the camera seal to allow the ribbon to pass through it. Why doesn't anyone get this? It's really simple and strait forward. You cannot seal a camera if you slice open the seal to pass a ribbon cable through it.

You seem to be thinking of "weather sealing" as some sort of complete, impervious barrier through which nothing passes.  That is simply not the case.  The sealing comprises a set of O-rings, gaskets, and in some cases foam or tape, that are applied around holes in the camera or lens shell.  External switches have wires which pass through the sealing without compromising its integrity. O-rings are called that because they have a hole in the middle…they aren't a membrane over an opening, they allow something to pass through that hole and into the camera interior.  The same type of sealing could be done with a ribbon cable.

In fact, it has been done with a ribbon cable in a fully articulating joint – the Olympus E-3 and E-5 are weather-sealed dSLRs with fully articulated screens...and those cameras are durable and robustly built.
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

canon rumors FORUM

Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #240 on: March 06, 2014, 08:29:10 AM »

Orangutan

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 704
    • View Profile
Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #241 on: March 06, 2014, 09:41:27 AM »
Why doesn't anyone get this? It's really simple and strait forward. You cannot seal a camera if you slice open the seal to pass a ribbon cable through it.

I simply don't think that's true.  No sealing is perfect: even submarines have to break the seal of the tin can to connect wires to an external radio antenna.  The question is how much sealing is good enough for the intended purpose.  Or, phrased in business terms, how much sealing makes the product a profitable, worthwhile member of the catalog.  (good profits and reasonable failure rate)


Don Haines

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3244
  • Posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
    • View Profile
Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #242 on: March 06, 2014, 10:15:48 AM »
The conductors inside the ribbon is sealed  by the material of the ribbon already. Therefore the sealing at the joint for the ribbon will not be needed.

The point isn't to seal the ribbon itself. The point is to avoid having to break the camera seal to allow the ribbon to pass through it. Why doesn't anyone get this? It's really simple and strait forward. You cannot seal a camera if you slice open the seal to pass a ribbon cable through it.

Unlike breaking the seal to mount a lens :)
The best camera is the one in your hands

NancyP

  • 7D
  • *****
  • Posts: 379
    • View Profile
Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #243 on: March 06, 2014, 11:51:33 AM »
My articulating screen on the 60D is still fine, almost 4 years out. I think that it will last long enough for me to wait for the mythical 7D2.

Don Haines

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3244
  • Posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
    • View Profile
Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #244 on: March 06, 2014, 12:00:20 PM »
My articulating screen on the 60D is still fine, almost 4 years out. I think that it will last long enough for me to wait for the mythical 7D2.

The articulating screen on my 60D is in perfect condition after 4 years of heavy use. I tend to fold it over to protect the screen when not in use. I would like to add that my friend's 5D2, which is well treated and has only seen a fraction of the use, has scratches on the screen....
The best camera is the one in your hands

Famateur

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
    • View Profile
Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #245 on: March 06, 2014, 12:46:43 PM »
The day Canon adds articulating screens to their xD line of products is the day I jump ship.

I think I understand where you're coming from: when ultimate durability is a top priority, adding another point of potential weakness could be a big step back.  I'd be willing to bet, though, that the day Canon adds articulating screens to the 1D line, it's because they're robust enough to handle professional use in the field. Whether Canon ever goes that route is anybody's guess, but for now, the articulating screen doesn't look like it will make its way into a pro body anytime soon -- perhaps for the durability reasons you state. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if it makes it into the 6D. Technically, it's an xD body, but I don't think it's what Canon considers a pro body.

Just as a data point (or two, or three), I've had an articulating screen on three Canon (consumer) cameras: A80, G12 and 70D. The first two have seen plenty of abuse (each has an inverted corner from hard falls onto concrete). The screens both feel and perform as they did when new (this surprised me, actually). My kids have inherited the now archaic A80, and I use the still very relevant G12 for rugged outdoor stuff when weight/space is a concern.

The 70D is still like a new pair of shoes, wiping off every little smudge. The screen feels just as strong as the G12 (maybe a little stiffer). I'm confident that it will prove just as durable, but I can't help but knock on wood when I say that! Hence, I understand the concern a professional might have.

One other quick note: I managed to get my G12 covered in snow and very wet while snowboarding with my kiddos last week. There was water in and around the screen, buttons, lens assembly, et cetera. It was wet. I wiped it off, blew in some crevices, and all was fine. Obviously, snapshots of the family aren't critical to a professional shoot, but I was impressed with what that little camera can withstand...

9VIII

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 626
    • View Profile
Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #246 on: March 06, 2014, 05:50:14 PM »
I'm still on the fence as to whether I would want an articulating screen on a 1D.
Yes, a remote shooting program on a tablet is much better in the studio (for macro and product photography), but in the field getting macro shots of bugs and stuff on the ground, I can't help but think I would still like a screen that tilts.
Maybe they could use a single hinge design with a screen on both sides of the flap, so it just swings down from the top and then you could look at it from above and below, in front or behind (always ready for a selfie [that's a joke, by the way]).
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 05:52:42 PM by 9VIII »
-100% RAW-

canon rumors FORUM

Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #246 on: March 06, 2014, 05:50:14 PM »

jrista

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4729
  • POTATO
    • View Profile
    • Nature Photography
Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #247 on: March 06, 2014, 08:49:41 PM »
The point isn't to seal the ribbon itself. The point is to avoid having to break the camera seal to allow the ribbon to pass through it. Why doesn't anyone get this? It's really simple and strait forward. You cannot seal a camera if you slice open the seal to pass a ribbon cable through it.

You seem to be thinking of "weather sealing" as some sort of complete, impervious barrier through which nothing passes.  That is simply not the case.  The sealing comprises a set of O-rings, gaskets, and in some cases foam or tape, that are applied around holes in the camera or lens shell.  External switches have wires which pass through the sealing without compromising its integrity. O-rings are called that because they have a hole in the middle…they aren't a membrane over an opening, they allow something to pass through that hole and into the camera interior.  The same type of sealing could be done with a ribbon cable.

The difference with o-rings & gaskets and the like is they are not at wearable joints. They are put in place, and they stay in place, and there is no wear on them. The most worn seals in a DSLR are the seals around the buttons, underneath which is a full seal that separates the button itself from the electronics inside.

My point is that an articulating screen is something that will constantly be pulled out and put back, on a continual basis, over the life of the camera. The joint there is going to take a lot of wear (especially if it's one of those swivel joints.)


In fact, it has been done with a ribbon cable in a fully articulating joint – the Olympus E-3 and E-5 are weather-sealed dSLRs with fully articulated screens...and those cameras are durable and robustly built.

I am aware that it's been done. I would also be willing to bet that Olympus has encased the ribbon itself in the seal, rather than breaking the seal to allow the ribbon through.
My Photography
Current Gear: Canon 5D III | Canon 7D | Canon EF 600mm f/4 L IS II | EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS | EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L | EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro | 50mm f/1.4
New Gear List: SBIG STT-8300M | Canon EF 300mm f/2.8 L II

jrista

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 4729
  • POTATO
    • View Profile
    • Nature Photography
Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #248 on: March 06, 2014, 08:55:53 PM »
The day Canon adds articulating screens to their xD line of products is the day I jump ship.

I think I understand where you're coming from: when ultimate durability is a top priority, adding another point of potential weakness could be a big step back.  I'd be willing to bet, though, that the day Canon adds articulating screens to the 1D line, it's because they're robust enough to handle professional use in the field. Whether Canon ever goes that route is anybody's guess, but for now, the articulating screen doesn't look like it will make its way into a pro body anytime soon -- perhaps for the durability reasons you state. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if it makes it into the 6D. Technically, it's an xD body, but I don't think it's what Canon considers a pro body.

Just as a data point (or two, or three), I've had an articulating screen on three Canon (consumer) cameras: A80, G12 and 70D. The first two have seen plenty of abuse (each has an inverted corner from hard falls onto concrete). The screens both feel and perform as they did when new (this surprised me, actually). My kids have inherited the now archaic A80, and I use the still very relevant G12 for rugged outdoor stuff when weight/space is a concern.

The 70D is still like a new pair of shoes, wiping off every little smudge. The screen feels just as strong as the G12 (maybe a little stiffer). I'm confident that it will prove just as durable, but I can't help but knock on wood when I say that! Hence, I understand the concern a professional might have.

One other quick note: I managed to get my G12 covered in snow and very wet while snowboarding with my kiddos last week. There was water in and around the screen, buttons, lens assembly, et cetera. It was wet. I wiped it off, blew in some crevices, and all was fine. Obviously, snapshots of the family aren't critical to a professional shoot, but I was impressed with what that little camera can withstand...

Thanks for understanding. ;)

Out of curiosity, what kind of situations do you use your cameras with articulating screens in? Do you tromp through swamps and wetlands, haul it through thickets of clingy brambles, take it into sub-zero temperatures or drench it in rain, sleet, snow, and hail?

I've done all of these things with my 7D. And from some of the things I've read on some of the professional photographer blogs and sites I follow, I'm rather "mild" with my equipment in comparison to some of the things many 1D series cameras go through.

Don't get me wrong. I fully understand the VALUE of an articulating screen. I think they certainly have their place, and the xxxD and xxD lines are a great place to include that value. But when you need a rugged tank designed to handle the rigors of hunting down elusive birds or wildlife, you want a package that is well contained, solidly built, with the fewest failure points possible.

To put it in other words, there is always a cost to convenience, a give and take, and sometimes the cost of convenience requires too much give in other areas.
My Photography
Current Gear: Canon 5D III | Canon 7D | Canon EF 600mm f/4 L IS II | EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS | EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L | EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro | 50mm f/1.4
New Gear List: SBIG STT-8300M | Canon EF 300mm f/2.8 L II

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14527
    • View Profile
Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #249 on: March 06, 2014, 09:10:34 PM »
I am aware that it's been done. I would also be willing to bet that Olympus has encased the ribbon itself in the seal, rather than breaking the seal to allow the ribbon through.

Ok, so there's a way to do it, and therefore Canon could do something similar.  I'm not convinced the demand is there from the 1-series user base, but I'm pretty certain it if were, Canon would find an appropriately robust engineering solution.
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

Don Haines

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3244
  • Posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
    • View Profile
Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #250 on: March 06, 2014, 09:21:55 PM »
Why doesn't anyone get this? It's really simple and strait forward. You cannot seal a camera if you slice open the seal to pass a ribbon cable through it.

I simply don't think that's true.  No sealing is perfect: even submarines have to break the seal of the tin can to connect wires to an external radio antenna.  The question is how much sealing is good enough for the intended purpose.  Or, phrased in business terms, how much sealing makes the product a profitable, worthwhile member of the catalog.  (good profits and reasonable failure rate)

A submarine isn't a good example.....they are full of leaks... the trick is to be able to pump out the water faster than it comes in :)
The best camera is the one in your hands

Famateur

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
    • View Profile
Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #251 on: March 07, 2014, 06:09:33 PM »
Thanks for understanding. ;)

You're welcome!  :P

Out of curiosity, what kind of situations do you use your cameras with articulating screens in? Do you tromp through swamps and wetlands, haul it through thickets of clingy brambles, take it into sub-zero temperatures or drench it in rain, sleet, snow, and hail?

I'll preface this by saying that I fully acknowledge I'm not a professional photographer (obviously) where my equipment is subjected to extreme conditions on a regular basis. That being said, my answer is yes to all of the above except swamps (don't really have any proper swamps in Utah) and perhaps hail (I don't recall taking any photos while hail is falling). I'd also add blood and sand to the list. :)

The elk hunt every year is one example. Rather than using a long-range rifle, I prefer to use a slug gun and stalk quietly through the woods (more of a challenge, and I feel much closer to nature -- it's a success that way, whether I harvest or not). Covering an average of 6-10 miles each day on foot, conditions range from single-digit temps to 50+ sunny afternoons. There's snow, rain, sleet, wind, dense thickets, sweat, grime and of course the occasional loss of footing where I land on my camera on one side or my rifle on the other. :) For years when I'm successful, the ol' camera tends to collect some blood and hair, too (sorry if that's a little gory for any readers). Most of the time, I'm above 10,000 feet, and conditions can change rapidly.

I also happen to serve as a scout master in my area. As probably happens to many others on this forum, I've become the de facto "photojournalist" for our excursions. That brings its own level of abuse getting tossed around with my pack or taking photos in whatever conditions we're in (often pouring rain). It took a few weeks for all the sand to work its way out of the lens assembly after our last trip to the dunes (that produced some fun shots), but it keeps on ticking.

Anyway, I wouldn't delude myself into thinking it's anywhere close to what a pro wildlife photographer would subject his/her equipment to, but at the same time, I certainly don't baby the cameras or hesitate to bring them out in extreme conditions. On one hand, it's not the same thing if only a few hundred dollars of point-n-shoot are on the line compared to a pro DSLR+lenses setup, but if the consumer stuff is as tough as it is, I would bet the pro stuff is many times better.

By the way, the articulating screen is marvelous for nature's beauty that happens to be on the ground (a la the "Denizens of the Forest Floor" thread on this forum). :)

Here's hoping that Canon finds a way to make a tank-strength articulating screen so you can have the value without the concession of lessened durability.

Take care...

Famateur

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
    • View Profile
Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #252 on: March 07, 2014, 06:14:29 PM »
A submarine isn't a good example.....they are full of leaks... the trick is to be able to pump out the water faster than it comes in :)

LOL...I can just see it now: a tiny little bilge pump for your next pro body.  :o







Or just a drain valve, but where's the fun in that? I want a pump!  ;D

canon rumors FORUM

Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #252 on: March 07, 2014, 06:14:29 PM »

jonjt

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #253 on: March 12, 2014, 07:49:11 AM »
The difference with o-rings & gaskets and the like is they are not at wearable joints. They are put in place, and they stay in place, and there is no wear on them. The most worn seals in a DSLR are the seals around the buttons, underneath which is a full seal that separates the button itself from the electronics inside.

My point is that an articulating screen is something that will constantly be pulled out and put back, on a continual basis, over the life of the camera. The joint there is going to take a lot of wear (especially if it's one of those swivel joints.)


I am aware that it's been done. I would also be willing to bet that Olympus has encased the ribbon itself in the seal, rather than breaking the seal to allow the ribbon through.

I'm not familiar with the ways that Canon or Nikon weather seal their cameras.  However, O-rings (but not gaskets) have and continue to be used to seal joints that move.  You can find them on rotating and reciprocating machinery such as pistons, shafts, etc.  The O-ring design itself isn't innaproporiate for such joints per se, it's that you have to pick appropriate surface roughness and O-ring hardness for the taks at hand and for the surfaces that form the mate.  It's certainly mechanically possible to design a joint with a ribbon cable that is weather sealed, to whatever specification Canon builds it's camera bodies to.

Whether such a solution is appropriate and/or cost effective for a DSLR designed for a specific price point and performance level is another matter.  I think we are generally in agreement that a moving screen probably won't be included in a weather sealed, sports-focused body, for obvious reasons.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: What's Next from Canon?
« Reply #253 on: March 12, 2014, 07:49:11 AM »