October 22, 2014, 06:50:36 PM

Author Topic: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?  (Read 16433 times)

spturtle

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 32
    • View Profile
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2014, 04:31:33 PM »
You are mistaken. The eos-m mount can physically not handle an ff image circle. Sony was smarzer and made their e-mount just barely large enough to also handle ff. Canon was stupid, as so often. Aps-c only.

Can you explain why this is not possible? The flange distance is 18mm for both Sony E-mount and EF-M mount and they have approximately the same diameter.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2014, 04:31:33 PM »

Bob Howland

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2014, 04:32:15 PM »
You are mistaken. The eos-m mount can ├╝hysically not handle an ff image circle. Sony was smarzer and made their e-mount just barely large enough to also handle ff. Canon was stupid, as so often. Aps-c only. Dead-slow AF. Same tired old 18 MP sensor, a dinosaur from 5 years ago. Bad low iso performance. Poor hi-iso performance.

Sony was smarter?? They now have to support both the E-mount and Alpha-mount in both APS-C and FF versions and they don't seem to be providing clear guidance about which mounts and configurations will be emphasized, thereby creating confusion among potential buyers. Fuji and the micro-4/3 manufacturers are doing a much better job of creating workable systems.

FF is the Holy Grail only because it is the same size as a standard slide or negative, resulting in an enormous body of legacy lenses. In a similar fashion, in a similar fashion, Super-35 is a video standard because of the dominance of that image size for movies and the resulting development of now-highly prized and extremely expensive PL mount lenses for that image size.

There's no technical reason why Canon couldn't release an EOS FF mirrorless system by simply shortening the distance between sensor and lens flange to 18mm, introducing an adapter allowing use of DSLR lenses on the mirrorless bodies and taking their time introducing FF mirrorless lenses. About the only thing that Canon has done right with EOS-M is restrict it to APS-C-sized sensors. Canon has publicly stated that the emphasis of the EOS-M system would be small size. It's too bad that their implementation sucks.

 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 04:47:52 PM by Bob Howland »

AvTvM

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1020
    • View Profile
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2014, 05:23:32 PM »
You are mistaken. The eos-m mount can physically not handle an ff image circle. Sony was smarzer and made their e-mount just barely large enough to also handle ff. Canon was stupid, as so often. Aps-c only.

Can you explain why this is not possible? The flange distance is 18mm for both Sony E-mount and EF-M mount and they have approximately the same diameter.

It was discussed here and elsewhere many times over. Just scroll down on the dpreview article:
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-m

While the ef-m mount has a huge 58mm outrr diamezer it has a freakin narrow throat. So small, that neither canon is ashamed to provide the specs. It must be a couple mm less than the sony e-mount which has a clearance of 46.1mm. Ef-m is definitely not ff-capable.

A HUGE mistake by canon. They did not believe, sony cokld come up with a small bodied, hi-spec FF-sensored a7/R. And got burned.

spturtle

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 32
    • View Profile
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2014, 06:20:17 PM »
You are mistaken. The eos-m mount can physically not handle an ff image circle. Sony was smarzer and made their e-mount just barely large enough to also handle ff. Canon was stupid, as so often. Aps-c only.

Can you explain why this is not possible? The flange distance is 18mm for both Sony E-mount and EF-M mount and they have approximately the same diameter.

It was discussed here and elsewhere many times over. Just scroll down on the dpreview article:
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-m

While the ef-m mount has a huge 58mm outrr diamezer it has a freakin narrow throat. So small, that neither canon is ashamed to provide the specs. It must be a couple mm less than the sony e-mount which has a clearance of 46.1mm. Ef-m is definitely not ff-capable.

I suppose you're right but no, I cannot find any definitive numbers to back up your statement. Has nobody with an EOS M actually measured the inner mount diameter (taking into account the bayonet wings) and posted the results? This hardware is available, there is no need for Canon to post specs. You claim the difference between the outer and inner diameter is 12mm or more, so 6mm at the edge. For the EF mount I get 6.5mm from a quick measurement. That would translate to a 13mm smaller inner diameter (45mm) so about 1mm smaller than the Sony E mount.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 06:31:50 PM by spturtle »

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14720
    • View Profile
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2014, 08:41:00 PM »
A HUGE mistake by canon. They did not believe, sony cokld come up with a small bodied, hi-spec FF-sensored a7/R. And got burned.

As Bob Howland pointed out, small size figured prominently in Canon's design goals for the EOS M, but you think they should have just made the camera and lenses bigger.  I don't suppose it occurred to you that Canon might have thought they'd profit more if people could buy dedicated EF-M lenses now, and replace them with EF-FFM (or whatever) later - it's ok, though, since I'm sure it occurred to them. 

But you must be right.  I mean, the EOS M was the second best-selling MILC in Japan last year, Canon really screwed up.  ::)

Has nobody with an EOS M actually measured the inner mount diameter (taking into account the bayonet wings) and posted the results?

43mm.  For comparison, the inner EF mount diameter measures 51mm.
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

Don Haines

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3355
  • Posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
    • View Profile
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2014, 09:05:07 PM »

FF is the Holy Grail only because it is the same size as a standard slide or negative, resulting in an enormous body of legacy lenses. In a similar fashion, in a similar fashion, Super-35 is a video standard because of the dominance of that image size for movies and the resulting development of now-highly prized and extremely expensive PL mount lenses for that image size.

There's no technical reason why Canon couldn't release an EOS FF mirrorless system by simply shortening the distance between sensor and lens flange to 18mm, introducing an adapter allowing use of DSLR lenses on the mirrorless bodies and taking their time introducing FF mirrorless lenses. About the only thing that Canon has done right with EOS-M is restrict it to APS-C-sized sensors. Canon has publicly stated that the emphasis of the EOS-M system would be small size. It's too bad that their implementation sucks.

My speculation is that Canon does have plans for a FF mirrorless camera, and that when it comes out, it will the same size as a 6D and will use all the regular EF (and EF-S) lenses... The EOS-M was designed to be small, and that means most of the lenses for it will be slow and short focal length... To make anything long or fast, you end up with lenses the same size as their EF counterparts, so why bother? That's not the market... nobody is going to by a 600F4 to use only on an EOS-M....
The best camera is the one in your hands

Rienzphotoz

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3323
  • Peace unto all ye Canon, Nikon & Sony shooters
    • View Profile
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2014, 11:53:54 PM »
When you say "dead end system", what exactly do you mean? ... if you are referring to upgrade path with faster [u]and longer reach lenses[/u], then the entire compact sized mirrorless segment, in its current state, is a "dead end system". With the exception of EF-M 22mm f/2 and a few of the lenses for micro four third mirrorless cameras, currently almost all of the faster lenses are bigger, defeating the size advantage of compact mirrorless cameras, the same goes for longer reach lenses. I was at the local Sony store yesterday to see if they had the 10-18mm lens, and happen to check out the Sony  18-200mm lenses for the APS-C mirrorless cameras ... the lens is not that much smaller then the Canon/Nikon/Sigma/Tamron equivalents. For me the compact mirrorless cameras/lenses make perfect sense for focal lengths upto 70mm (or possibly even up to 100mm), because they take up a lot less space in my hand luggage when I travel without sacrificing too much on image IQ ... also, I don't need to carry a heavier tripod, I am now able to carry just my Gorillapod, which also seems to be acceptable to cops, in the cities I've traveled so far (these were the same places where they do not allow tripods).
For those who do not care much about AF speed and those who generally shoot between 18-85mm equivalent FOV and prefer light weight/compact camera gear, the EOS-M and its 3 lenses make for a great compact option ... are there better options? absolutely ... but if you want to stick with Canon, that's all that you've got and despite EOS-M's limitations, Canon are generally not known for abandoning product lines or show middle finger, with utter disregard, to their customers, like Nikon and Sony. So, depending on what kind of a photographer you are, EOS-M is not a "dead end system".   
Canon 5DMK3 70D | Nikon D610 | Sony a7 a6000 | RX100M3 | 16-35/2.8LII | 70-200/2.8LISII | 100/2.8LIS | 100-400LIS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.4 | 85/1.8 | 600EX-RTx2 | ST-E3-RT | 24/3.5 T-S | 10-18/4 OSS 16-50 | 24-70/4OSS | 55/1.8 | 55-210 OSS | 70-200/4 OSS | 28-300VR | HVL-F43M | GoPro Black 3+ & DJI Phantom

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2014, 11:53:54 PM »

Arctic Photo

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2014, 12:58:11 AM »
Using the very nice 22mm on it and then being able to mount also one of your existing EF-lenses on it makes for a good package.

Sorry, but you can not mount a EF lens on the EOS-M.  I think you know this, but not everyone will, so its misleading newbies.
 
You must use a expensive Adapter.  If you buy a EOS M because of its size, adding a adapter to a already large EF lens is not going to make for a small system.
I know you need an adapter for that, just didn't point it out.

Arctic Photo

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2014, 12:59:29 AM »
Someone said it was a mistake to put a crop sensor in it, I don't get why that would be a mistake. It's still a well performing sensor and what is there to say that they can't make an m full frame? The mount as such wouldn't be an obstacle as far as I understand.  It would be kind of cool if Canon offered both crop and full frame versions of the m will all the nice lenses.

You are mistaken. The eos-m mount can physically not handle an ff image circle. Sony was smarter and made their e-mount just barely large enough to also handle ff. Canon was stupid, as so often. Aps-c only. Dead-slow AF. Same tired old 18 MP sensor, a dinosaur from 5 years ago. Bad low iso performance. Poor hi-iso performance.

Dead end.  only fire-sellable at usd 299 including kit lens and useless external flash.
I didn't know that. Sorry, wrong assumption. I'm still getting one though.

AvTvM

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1020
    • View Profile
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2014, 01:55:48 AM »
Look at the eos-m and the ef-m mount: a whopping outer diameter of 58mm and clearance only 43mm. Had they made the throat just 2mm wider, the system would have been fully ff-capable. Neither the eos-m itself nor the ef-m lenses for aps-c would have been any larger in size. But canon would have had a mirrorless ff option ready to go. So much for "Canon being oh so smart and plans ahead in every detail". :-)

They are ... plain stupid. That's why only japanese schoolgirls buy their pink snapshot cameras. That's why they had to sell the eos m at firesale price in the us and abandon the market with EOS-M. That's why Fujifilm is coming back with a vengeance, turning into an additional and very real competitor. Because Fuji created a hi-end interchangeable lens mirrorless ecosystem. Yes, it's also APS-C only for the moment [don't have the details at hand re. their lens mount, maybe it is FF-capable], but they got some very decent mirrorless cameras with evf (or hybrid) viewfinder built right in and a decent range of very decent lenses.

Canon? Decides to bring an ultrastupid g1x without viewfinder and with bolted-on lens instead. EOS-m in red and white. EOS-M2 with Wifi in Asia only. Meanwhile Sony takes a very respectable first stab at ultracompact, hi-end ff-sensored milcs. Nobody thought it was possible this small. As soon as the next, slightly better generation of these ff-milcs arrives, ***DSLR-Armaggedon*** will really set in full scale ... for Canon and Nikon.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 03:43:09 AM by AvTvM »

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14720
    • View Profile
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2014, 08:44:59 AM »
So much for "Canon being oh so smart and plans ahead in every detail". :-)

They are ... plain stupid. That's why

...they sell more dSLRs and lenses than anyone else, and have done so for the past 10 years.

...their first MILC was the second best-selling MILC in their home country (where MILCs are popular), beating out many of the established vendors in that space.

...they are consistently ranked as one of the world's most innovative companies and have more US patents issued each year than any other Japanese company, and have been in the top 5 for US patents issued for many, many years.

As I stated above, there's a logical and easily understood reason for Canon to have chosen to make EF-M lenses incompatible with any future FF bodies.  The vast majority of lenses sold by Canon over the past few years are EF-S lenses kitted with Rebel/xxxD bodies, and those aren't compatible with FF bodies (despite having the same mount size).  Canon profits from those lens sales, then if a user upgrades to FF, Canon profits again when they buy new EF lenses to replace their EF-S lenses.

But because you either don't agree with that business decision (and note that they have a legal obligation to maximize value for their shareholders, not for their customers), or you simply don't understand it, Canon is 'plain stupid'.   ::)

As soon as the next, slightly better generation of these ff-milcs arrives, ***DSLR-Armaggedon*** will really set in full scale ... for Canon and Nikon.

LOL.  Ummm, ok, sure, whatever.  The demise of the dSLR was scheduled for two years ago, I guess we all missed it.  The a7/a7R haven't killed the dSLR, but a 'slightly better' version will.  File that idea under 'pretty stupidÔÇŽ'.  ::)
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

Rienzphotoz

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3323
  • Peace unto all ye Canon, Nikon & Sony shooters
    • View Profile
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2014, 10:05:31 AM »
As soon as the next, slightly better generation of these ff-milcs arrives, ***DSLR-Armaggedon*** will really set in full scale ... for Canon and Nikon.
BTW, which mirrorless camera do you use? I have the Canon EOS-M & the Sony a7 but neither of them can ever replace the 5D MK III and the EF lenses I have for them. I am currently using a ZEISS FE 24-70 constant f/4 aperture lens with my Sony a7 and I can tell you confidently that even the 9 years old EF 24-105 f/4 on my 2 year old 5D MK III, beats the image quality of this brand new ZEISS lens which costs 40% more than the EF 24-105 f/4. So I am not sure on what basis you are making your claim that "slightly better generation of these ff-milcs" will bring around the "DSLR Armaggedon". Personally I do not see any FF or APS-C compact mirrorless camera ("slightly better" or even a lot better) being able to take on an a 200mm f/2 or 300mm f/2.8 etc lenses without being awkward and silly.  I am sure you already know that the slightly better FF mirrorless camera (albeit huge by mirrorless standards) already exists i.e. Sony a99, but it has been facing "Armaggedon" ever since it was released while the Canon 5D MK III, Canon 6D, Nikon D800 & D610 are still out selling the "slightly better" FF mirrorless a99.
Canon 5DMK3 70D | Nikon D610 | Sony a7 a6000 | RX100M3 | 16-35/2.8LII | 70-200/2.8LISII | 100/2.8LIS | 100-400LIS | 40/2.8 | 50/1.4 | 85/1.8 | 600EX-RTx2 | ST-E3-RT | 24/3.5 T-S | 10-18/4 OSS 16-50 | 24-70/4OSS | 55/1.8 | 55-210 OSS | 70-200/4 OSS | 28-300VR | HVL-F43M | GoPro Black 3+ & DJI Phantom

rpiotr01

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2014, 10:21:22 AM »
Hi all,

Firstly let me just say - I don't mean to offend any Eos-m users by putting this post.
I am still keen is getting a smaller unit as an alternative to my 5dmk3 and I believe this is the Eos-m system.
However, with Canon releasing a new G1 camera and only releasing the Eos-M 2 in Japan and some parts of Asia, have they abandoned the Eos-m system? Should I wait later this year instead of getting the original Eos-m?

Thanks all,

I have both the M with 22 f2 and 5DIII.

If you want the M to be an alternate system to grow, then yes IMO it's a dead end system, at least (or especially) in North America.

If you want an M to be a small, lightweight, pretty high IQ occasional alternative to a big heavy DSLR, then you'll probably be very happy with it. I am :)

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2014, 10:21:22 AM »

unfocused

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2182
    • View Profile
    • Unfocused: A photo website
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2014, 10:23:51 AM »
But, it isn't any more of a dead end than any other mirrorless interchangeable lens system.

EOS-M is currently a much "deader end" than any other interchangeable-lens mirrorless system on the market today, with the notable exception of Nikon 1 and Pentax Q systems...

You are talking about specific models and brands. I was referring to the entire branch of mirrorless interchangeable lens systems, which I believe may well turn out to be an evolutionary dead-end.

Only time will tell, but this quote from Nikon is instructive.

Quote from: dpreview
In Japan and Asia mirrorless is still growing, but in Europe and the Americas, including North America we've determined that the market for mirrorless is shrinking.

Are the Japanese and Asian markets on the leading edge with Europe and the Americas slow to catch up. Or are European and the Americas markets on the leading edge and Japan and Asia just catching up with the advantages of DSLRs? 

As I said, only time will tell. But, I wouldn't be betting against the DSLR format just yet.
pictures sharp. life not so much. www.unfocusedmg.com

Cinto

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 32
    • View Profile
Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2014, 11:21:43 AM »
What killed the first EOS-M for me was that it couldn't be used in tethered mode. I'm not sure why that was not possible - unless it was done on purpose to not compete with the dSLRs. The EOS-M2 supposedly can do it, but not sold. I think it would make a great camera for remote control (with an external power supply). Ok, it's a niche market perhaps, but each feature one eliminates results in more lost sales.
+1, unfortunately I bought one before I figured this out. Waiting to see if Magic Lantern can maybe come up with something, although their support for the m is pretty low.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2014, 11:21:43 AM »