October 24, 2014, 07:56:18 PM

Author Topic: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?  (Read 16463 times)

AvTvM

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2014, 08:43:53 AM »
I recently used the EOS-M + 18-55 I STM & 22 f/2 lenses for my vacation in Australia and it was a great setup ... very light and easy to carry around without feeling the weight. But after having tried the Sony a7, I started looking into the Sony line of mirrorless cameras and am very impressed with them ... there are at least a couple of Sony mirrorless cameras that are priced similar to the EOS-M and do a far better job of auto focus, please their 16-50mm kit lens is far more compact  and wider focal length then the EOS-M kit lens i.e. 24mm (Sony) vs 28mm (EOS-M) ... but if you are used to Canon menu system, you will find the EOS-M a lot more user friendly (especially the touch screen) then the Sony menu system ... personally (despite the better menu system of EOS-M), I prefer the Sony mirrorless cameras, because they have far more native lenses, great in-camera apps, slightly bigger sensor and good tilt screen that come in very handy for mirrorless cameras.

It really is a shame, that Canon has not come up with a competitive EOS-M, forcing one to choose either IQ+AF-performance + lens-lineup (Sony, Fuji) or the truly superior and nicely-familiar Canon-interface.

At least the EOS-M2 should have come with the 70D sensor, plus full-speed AF also with EF-/EF-S lenses mounted via the EF/EF-M adapter and just a few more good EF-M lenses, e.g. a nice 'n sharp 10mm/4.0 "landscape pancake" and  a compact, decent 75mm/2.8 light portrait tele ... it would have really kicked ass. 

Plus announcement of a higher-end wheathersealed EOS-M3 with an even better EVF than the Fuji XT-1 ...

Canon would have been back on track to dominate the APS-C segment [DSLRs -> MILCs] for the next 10 years at least. And it would have put tremendous pressure on Nikon and Sony. But no ... sigh

Who really wants that stream of completely uninspired annual iterations of the next tired "Digital Rebel mirrorslapper" with all their sorry little "mirror-prism"- OVF peepholes and no thumbwheel?

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2014, 08:43:53 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2014, 09:03:46 AM »
Who really wants that stream of completely uninspired annual iterations of the next tired "Digital Rebel mirrorslapper" with all their sorry little "mirror-prism"- OVF peepholes and no thumbwheel?

Apparently millions of people want that...  You may not, but you're in the minority.
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AvTvM

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2014, 09:36:24 AM »
Who really wants that stream of completely uninspired annual iterations of the next tired "Digital Rebel mirrorslapper" with all their sorry little "mirror-prism"- OVF peepholes and no thumbwheel?

Apparently millions of people want that...  You may not, but you're in the minority.

Millions of people dide not really want it ... but were not offered anything else at prices affordable to regular income earners with photography being one of their hobbies.

An EOS-M2 sized as is, but with 70D sensor (= with useable AF), priced like an SL-1 and a higher-end EOS-M3 equipped with best-in-class EVF, wheathersealing and RT-speedlite trigger, sized and priced like a Fujifilm XT-1 ... would be the only ticket for Canon to replace sales of all those rebels nobody will want to buy any longer a year or two from now ... maybe not even @ USD 299,- in firesales.

As observed so often, Canon is again acting very shortsightedly. Re. APS-C MILCs. Not to mention re. FF-MILCs.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2014, 10:48:13 AM »
Who really wants that stream of completely uninspired annual iterations of the next tired "Digital Rebel mirrorslapper" with all their sorry little "mirror-prism"- OVF peepholes and no thumbwheel?

Apparently millions of people want that...  You may not, but you're in the minority.

Millions of people dide not really want it ...

How do you know that??  Millions of people bought Rebel/xxxD cameras last year.  They plunked down their hard-earned money to buy very good and functional cameras that can take excellent pictures.  Millions more will do the same thing this year.  But you're saying they didn't want to, they had no choice, they were forced to spend several hundred dollars, for a product they didn't want, for a hobby?  Get a clue. 

It just baffles me how people can think that their own personal opinion is universally shared by everyone, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
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Arctic Photo

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2014, 11:31:34 AM »
Who really wants that stream of completely uninspired annual iterations of the next tired "Digital Rebel mirrorslapper" with all their sorry little "mirror-prism"- OVF peepholes and no thumbwheel?

Apparently millions of people want that...  You may not, but you're in the minority.
I found AvTvM's post quite balanced. I will personally get the M as a backup at the great price it comes at now. I very much like the 22mm lens and of course the menu system matters. But it would have been nice if Canon had surprised us for once. I am a Canon guy and won't change, probably ever. I mostly like their new products and think they make sense.
Millions of people dide not really want it ...

How do you know that??  Millions of people bought Rebel/xxxD cameras last year.  They plunked down their hard-earned money to buy very good and functional cameras that can take excellent pictures.  Millions more will do the same thing this year.  But you're saying they didn't want to, they had no choice, they were forced to spend several hundred dollars, for a product they didn't want, for a hobby?  Get a clue. 

It just baffles me how people can think that their own personal opinion is universally shared by everyone, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

AvTvM

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2014, 11:31:42 AM »
How do you know that??  Millions of people bought Rebel/xxxD cameras last year.  They plunked down their hard-earned money to buy very good and functional cameras that can take excellent pictures.  Millions more will do the same thing this year.  But you're saying they didn't want to, they had no choice, they were forced to spend several hundred dollars, for a product they didn't want, for a hobby?  Get a clue. 

It just baffles me how people can think that their own personal opinion is universally shared by everyone, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

You have your opinions. And I am entitled to mine. Just deal with it. I am sick and tired of your condescending and derogatory tone. Cut it out.   

My opinion is: Canon did give "limited budget" amateurs willing to spend no more than 1 grand for body + kit lens no choice other than Digital Rebels (DSLRs) ... and a very non-compelling, crippled EOS-M. Slow AF, no WiFi, no viewfinder, no built-in flash ... and a 2 or 3 "lens line-up". It only sold once it was dumped at USD 299,-  because it is such a limited camera "system".

As evidenced by APS-C MILC sales of other makers [most notably Sony and Fujifilm; possibly Samsung NX is also selling in Asia], a good number (many millions) of "Rebel-class" buyers would be more than happy to buy a more compact mirrorless Canon EOS, provided it is "fully competitive" - in photographic capabilities and in price.

It is really ridiculous that Canon does not offer this choice - desirable mirrorless vs. stale Rebel/Kiss DSLRs.
I consider it a huge mistake on Canon's part that they have no EOS M2 that matches Sony's A6000 or Fujifilm XE-2 all the way [sensor and AF] and no EOS-M3 that fully matches something like a Fujifilm XT-1.

The extremly narrow EF-M lens-lineup could be overcome by a nice published road-map (like other makers who act much mor customer-friendly than arrogant CaNikon) and even more so by means of the existing EF-/EF-M adapter, IF AF-performance would still be "decent enough" with existing EF/EF-S lenses mounted via that adapter. Unfortunately this is not the case with the current EOS-M and for all I have read so far, neither with the M2. 

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #81 on: March 01, 2014, 12:23:34 PM »
You have your opinions. And I am entitled to mine.

Of course, you are entitled to your own opinions, and I respect that.  But that respect disappears when you make statements such as, "Millions of people dide not really want it...," you are assigning that opinion to others – millions of others.  Do you honestly believe that the millions of people who bought Rebel/xxxD bodies did so because they had no other option?  You've been singing the praises of Sony, Olympus, and Panasonic MILC options all along...why didn't those millions of people choose those, if they're so much better?  I don't know why, and neither do you.  But the incontrovertible fact is that those millions of people chose a Canon dSLR over any MILC.

You consider Canon's choices for the MILC market a mistake, and that may be true (although with the second best-selling MILC in Japan, a model that outsold both Fuji and Panasonic's top-selling models, they apparently did something right).  Time will tell.  Meanwhile, last year Canon alone sold close to twice as many dSLRs as all the MILCs sold by all manufacturers combined.  Deal with that.
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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #81 on: March 01, 2014, 12:23:34 PM »

bauerman

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #82 on: March 01, 2014, 12:37:50 PM »
We need to have the following t-shirt printed for "AvTvM" - it would simply state the following:

"If If's and But's were candy and nuts - we'd all have a wonderful Christmas!"

I don't know that I have ever seen someone so obsessed with a camera that he does not own and/or has no plans to own in the future.  Yet it has obviously become a burr in his saddle to the point where he feels it his mission to taint and tarnish the product endlessly. 

My suggestion?  Go take pictures if photography is your hobby and leave us "suckers" to our crippled and useless camera bodies.

My opinion of the M carries with it literally no less weight than AvTVM's - and I think it is a useful camera system and one that when implemented properly can produce fantastic images.

And I guaran-damn-tee you I an NOT a "limited budget amateur" has he put it.   

neuroanatomist

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #83 on: March 01, 2014, 12:54:15 PM »
My opinion of the M carries with it literally no less weight than AvTVM's - and I think it is a useful camera system and one that when implemented properly can produce fantastic images.

And I guaran-damn-tee you I an NOT a "limited budget amateur" has he put it.   

I happen to share your opinion of the EOS M.

I suppose you could say I'm a 'limited budget amateur', albeit with a limit that's pretty darn high.  For example, I only own one supertelephoto lens...   ;)
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Sporgon

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #84 on: March 01, 2014, 03:09:33 PM »

Millions of people dide not really want it ... but were not offered anything else at prices affordable to regular income earners with photography being one of their hobbies.


You're overlooking the fact that a very high percentage of camera buyers still like the concept of seeing through their camera's lens, optically. This trend may change in the future, but at the present time sales figures support this fact.

sdsr

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #85 on: March 01, 2014, 04:15:38 PM »
How much improvement was gained with the new firmware update?

Improvement in what?

The most significant improvement was in AF speed and it improved quite a bit. Still not best in class, but acceptable.

Right.  What it didn't speed up is the time lag between taking shots, which I found far more annoying than the focus speed (I hardly ever photograph moving things, so that wasn't much of a problem for me) or, of course, all the other irritating design features.

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #86 on: March 01, 2014, 04:45:25 PM »

An EOS-M2 sized as is, but with 70D sensor (= with useable AF), priced like an SL-1 and a higher-end EOS-M3 equipped with best-in-class EVF, wheathersealing and RT-speedlite trigger, sized and priced like a Fujifilm XT-1 ... would be the only ticket for Canon to replace sales of all those rebels nobody will want to buy any longer a year or two from now ... maybe not even @ USD 299,- in firesales.


Excellent mirrorless cameras have existed for a while, but outside the far East it's *them* that "nobody wants to buy", in part, perhaps, because they're not cheap compared to APS-C dslrs.  The XT-1 is $1300, the OM-D E-M1 is c. $1400, the newest Panasonic will cost even more, and the next tier down from Fuji, Olympus and Panasonic are c. $1000 (most of them without weather sealing) - and that's body-only.  What's more, unless you spend a bit more and buy an Sony A7 (and are willing to work around the limited native lens selection), the image quality is no better than an APS-C dslr provides.  So unless small body size really matters, it's unclear exactly why anyone *should* prefer these alternatives.  I happen to like them a lot - Olympus OM-D and Sony A7/7r, at any rate - but for now it's pretty clear that I'm in a minority in this part of the world (apparently Fuji have yet to sell a million worldwide of all their X-series cameras put together). 

AvTvM

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2014, 04:57:57 PM »

An EOS-M2 sized as is, but with 70D sensor (= with useable AF), priced like an SL-1 and a higher-end EOS-M3 equipped with best-in-class EVF, wheathersealing and RT-speedlite trigger, sized and priced like a Fujifilm XT-1 ... would be the only ticket for Canon to replace sales of all those rebels nobody will want to buy any longer a year or two from now ... maybe not even @ USD 299,- in firesales.


Excellent mirrorless cameras have existed for a while, but outside the far East it's *them* that "nobody wants to buy", in part, perhaps, because they're not cheap compared to APS-C dslrs.  The XT-1 is $1300, the OM-D E-M1 is c. $1400, the newest Panasonic will cost even more, and the next tier down from Fuji, Olympus and Panasonic are c. $1000 (most of them without weather sealing) - and that's body-only.  What's more, unless you spend a bit more and buy an Sony A7 (and are willing to work around the limited native lens selection), the image quality is no better than an APS-C dslr provides.  So unless small body size really matters, it's unclear exactly why anyone *should* prefer these alternatives.  I happen to like them a lot - Olympus OM-D and Sony A7/7r, at any rate - but for now it's pretty clear that I'm in a minority in this part of the world (apparently Fuji have yet to sell a million worldwide of all their X-series cameras put together).

Exactly. It is all about price and performance. Acceptable MILC performance has only come about very recently. And mFT will go under as soon as APS-C and FF_MILCs will start to flow, because the sensor is too smal, no matter what they say or do.   

We are entitled to the digital dividend. A camera like a (fictitious) EOS-M with the 70D sensor and capabilities and a first-rate EVF should still be 300 USD less to produce, because it has fewer parts and is so much easier to assemble, align and quality control without all that mechanical mirroslapping stuff in it and an off-sensor phase-AF system. Yet camera makers believe they can cream off their customers once again. That's why customers other than Japanese girls and 299 firesale-shoppers have not been buying all of those inadequate, overpriced mirrorless offers up to now.

There is nothing that supports a 799 MSRP for an EOS-M or 1300 for a Fuji XT-1 or  1400 for an Olympus OMD1. They should all be about half of those price points .. around where the Digital Rebel DSLRs are, and well below a 70D/D7200 pricepoint - for the same functional capabilities (except EVF vs. OVF).   

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2014, 04:57:57 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #88 on: March 01, 2014, 06:34:45 PM »
We are entitled to

...choose whether or not to buy the products that are made available, at the prices at which they are offered.  Nothing more than that.

Oh, and we're entitled to complain on the Internet.  But we're also entitled to totally disagree with some of those complaints, and with the complainers.
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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #89 on: March 02, 2014, 02:13:34 AM »

The extremly narrow EF-M lens-lineup could be overcome by a nice published road-map (like other makers who act much mor customer-friendly than arrogant CaNikon) and even more so by means of the existing EF-/EF-M adapter, IF AF-performance would still be "decent enough" with existing EF/EF-S lenses mounted via that adapter. Unfortunately this is not the case with the current EOS-M and for all I have read so far, neither with the M2.

WTF?
this shows you dont own the camera let alone have ever used it
I have no problems with the EOS-M using EF lenses via the adapter
i use the 16-35 or the 135L the most and AF is reasonable and accurate with both lenses
 ::)
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Re: Is the canon eos-m a dead end system?
« Reply #89 on: March 02, 2014, 02:13:34 AM »