September 21, 2014, 06:24:35 AM

Author Topic: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List  (Read 7877 times)

RomainF

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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2014, 12:03:13 PM »
These numbers are irrelevant because we don't know the original number of photographers. Not because Canon is one sponsor : they wouldn't give fake numbers anyway…

One thing you have to get is that press photographers doesn't all use a pair of 1Dx, a 24-70 II and a 300mm 2.8 II. Salaried ones, working for the major agencies (AFP ; Reuters ; AP) are the ones who use the best gear because they don'y have to pay for it. For any other press photographer, they are standing alone with their shitty sales report and they have to deal with that money to pay for their living and their cameras.
Their is not that much 1Dx in the everyday press context. The 5D3 is the most used Canon body. There are some 5D2 and a lot of 1D4 and 1D3. Except for the ones who don't pay it, their is a very few 1Dx. The Dx is so much expensive and a lot of works require the silent shutter of the 5D3. That's why it is the most used camera : expensive but not that much ; great AF ; good ISO and silent shutter. These are what a press photog really need.

You know that the news economic model collapses more and more every day that passes. Being a press photog is, nowadays, a mostly precarious situation. You simply don't have enough money to buy the version II of lenses and flagship body if you want to pay your rent and your food. You buy a good camera, keep it for two or three years (minus one if there is a presidential election in the year) and broke it after 250.000 / 300.000 pics. That's why you change it. Not because you want the trendy last camera that has a "better DR". No one ever talks, no one even ever think about DR. DR is only good enough for the forums and "experts" chatting.

I am press/media. What you say is wrong and right. One year ago there is not many 1DX in the field. Now there are. I rarely see Canon 5D as I shoot action.

If I have taken the liberty to write these statements that's because i'm press too. I work about everyday at the presidency and ministries. I stand by my remarks. In the "news" world, 1Dx are a minority. I can see as many Leicas as Dx.

Going on the sports side, yeah, sure, I notice more 1Dx than 5D too.

Because Leica is the cheap alternative to a 1dx? ::)

You can keep your sarcastic smiley : it is not an "alternative" at all, but it is a lot cheaper for sure. Try to get out of your Canon DSLR exclusive world to have a look on the Leica side. M8 sell actually for about 1000€ and M9 for 2500€. When the 5D3 is about 3300€ with a grip. Regular lenses are, as Canon primes, about 1000€.
Because of the lack of AF, you'll see a very few Leica. And, the song remains the same : there are as many Leicas above the colleagues than Dx. One is too hard to use every day and the other is way too expensive.

You're all talking about "press photogs" like it is an ideal and enviable status. It just ain't what you're thinking it is.

No, I'll think I'll leave it there, over here an M (240) is the same price as the 1dx and the Summilux lenses are at least twice the price over the L equiv. and if you want a 24 f1.4 Summi it's also the same price as the 1dx, FOUR times the 24 L II , so I stand by my previous statement.

Do you realize your post makes no sense ?
- 1Dx is so expensive, i see as much 1Dx as Leicas
- That's a stupid comparison because Leica is more expensive
- That's wrong, Leica may be so much cheaper than a 1Dx
- Huhu, i tell you that Leica will ever be more expensive. Let's get an exemple : if you buy the most expensive stuff from the most expensive brand of the world you get a more expensive Leica combo than a 1Dx and a Canon lens

If you're talking about the Lux lenses, you probably know about the Cron ? And what about the Summarit ? Then…what about your previous statement…? Thank you.
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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2014, 12:03:13 PM »

Viggo

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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2014, 12:12:43 PM »
These numbers are irrelevant because we don't know the original number of photographers. Not because Canon is one sponsor : they wouldn't give fake numbers anyway…

One thing you have to get is that press photographers doesn't all use a pair of 1Dx, a 24-70 II and a 300mm 2.8 II. Salaried ones, working for the major agencies (AFP ; Reuters ; AP) are the ones who use the best gear because they don'y have to pay for it. For any other press photographer, they are standing alone with their shitty sales report and they have to deal with that money to pay for their living and their cameras.
Their is not that much 1Dx in the everyday press context. The 5D3 is the most used Canon body. There are some 5D2 and a lot of 1D4 and 1D3. Except for the ones who don't pay it, their is a very few 1Dx. The Dx is so much expensive and a lot of works require the silent shutter of the 5D3. That's why it is the most used camera : expensive but not that much ; great AF ; good ISO and silent shutter. These are what a press photog really need.

You know that the news economic model collapses more and more every day that passes. Being a press photog is, nowadays, a mostly precarious situation. You simply don't have enough money to buy the version II of lenses and flagship body if you want to pay your rent and your food. You buy a good camera, keep it for two or three years (minus one if there is a presidential election in the year) and broke it after 250.000 / 300.000 pics. That's why you change it. Not because you want the trendy last camera that has a "better DR". No one ever talks, no one even ever think about DR. DR is only good enough for the forums and "experts" chatting.

I am press/media. What you say is wrong and right. One year ago there is not many 1DX in the field. Now there are. I rarely see Canon 5D as I shoot action.

If I have taken the liberty to write these statements that's because i'm press too. I work about everyday at the presidency and ministries. I stand by my remarks. In the "news" world, 1Dx are a minority. I can see as many Leicas as Dx.

Going on the sports side, yeah, sure, I notice more 1Dx than 5D too.

Because Leica is the cheap alternative to a 1dx? ::)

You can keep your sarcastic smiley : it is not an "alternative" at all, but it is a lot cheaper for sure. Try to get out of your Canon DSLR exclusive world to have a look on the Leica side. M8 sell actually for about 1000€ and M9 for 2500€. When the 5D3 is about 3300€ with a grip. Regular lenses are, as Canon primes, about 1000€.
Because of the lack of AF, you'll see a very few Leica. And, the song remains the same : there are as many Leicas above the colleagues than Dx. One is too hard to use every day and the other is way too expensive.

You're all talking about "press photogs" like it is an ideal and enviable status. It just ain't what you're thinking it is.

No, I'll think I'll leave it there, over here an M (240) is the same price as the 1dx and the Summilux lenses are at least twice the price over the L equiv. and if you want a 24 f1.4 Summi it's also the same price as the 1dx, FOUR times the 24 L II , so I stand by my previous statement.

Do you realize your post makes no sense ?
- 1Dx is so expensive, i see as much 1Dx as Leicas
- That's a stupid comparison because Leica is more expensive
- That's wrong, Leica may be so much cheaper than a 1Dx
- Huhu, i tell you that Leica will ever be more expensive. Let's get an exemple : if you buy the most expensive stuff from the most expensive brand of the world you get a more expensive Leica combo than a 1Dx and a Canon lens

If you're talking about the Lux lenses, you probably know about the Cron ? And what about the Summarit ? Then…what about your previous statement…? Thank you.

And you said the M8 is cheaper, well, the 5d2 is even cheaper and still full frame. You can't compare an old 1.3 crop against a flagship like the 1dx. My brother is a Leica guy so I know a thing or two about them. Enough to say buying a whole system and with the top body and fast lenses it is more expensive, and that's not even considering what you get for your money. My brother owns the Nocti 0.95, and don't tell I said this, but for $13300 it must be the worst overpriced piece of cr@p ever...
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MichaelHodges

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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2014, 03:26:36 PM »
Are alll improvememts of equal significance? 


Now you're engaging in a logical fallacy.


Quote
Can you honestly say you believe that going from 11 to 13 stops of DR or adding MP that many lenses cannot fully take advantage of rise to the level of importance to and impact upon the field of photography as autofocus or the shift from film to digital?  If not, then your response to my sarcasm was absolutely 'reactionary, with little footing in logic or science.'

Again, you employ a logical fallacy. That was never the question.

My original comment was that it doesn't make much sense to downplay technological improvements out of brand loyalty. Whether the improvement is great or small has nothing to do with my original point.

If the 1DX and 5D III had the low ISO DR of the Sony sensors, we'd be celebrating, not vilifying.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 04:06:50 PM by MichaelHodges »

Viggo

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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2014, 04:52:18 PM »
Are alll improvememts of equal significance? 


Now you're engaging in a logical fallacy.


Quote
Can you honestly say you believe that going from 11 to 13 stops of DR or adding MP that many lenses cannot fully take advantage of rise to the level of importance to and impact upon the field of photography as autofocus or the shift from film to digital?  If not, then your response to my sarcasm was absolutely 'reactionary, with little footing in logic or science.'

Again, you employ a logical fallacy. That was never the question.

My original comment was that it doesn't make much sense to downplay technological improvements out of brand loyalty. Whether the improvement is great or small has nothing to do with my original point.

If the 1DX and 5D III had the low ISO DR of the Sony sensors, we'd be celebrating, not vilifying.


The point is that I celebrate the 1dx anyway and absolutely love it, it could have said Sony on it and I would have liked it just as much. If they update it with more DR, I couldn't care less. I have no use for it and it would make NO impact or difference in my shots. Nothing to do with being a fanboy. It's like if they added GPS inside, It makes no difference to me.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2014, 05:09:26 PM »
My original comment was that it doesn't make much sense to downplay technological improvements out of brand loyalty. Whether the improvement is great or small has nothing to do with my original point.

If you are attempting to have a logical debate, it helps to properly sequence your statements.

No, your original point in response to my offhanded remark was an analogy comparing the improvements in DR and resolution of the D800 to the development of camera autofocus systems and digital image sensors.  In other words, you compared modest, incremental improvements to transformative changes in technology.  That is a completely fallacious analogy.

Now, if you're referring to your second point, about downplaying technological improvements due to brand loyalty, I'll ask you to refrain from ascribing motives to my statements, that's presumptuous.  I'm downplaying them because they're modest, incremental improvements.  Are they beneficial? In some situations, certainly.  Do they benefit the vast majority of photographers and the vast majority of shots they take, as is the case for AF and digital sensors?  No. 

Frankly, most of what we see in the newest dSLRs today are modest, incremental improvements.  The 1DX has the fastest frame rate of any full frame camera, but 12 fps is still only a modest, incremental improvement over the 9 fps of the D3s.  The improved low light AF sensitivity of the 6D (-3 EV) is a modest, incremental improvement over its predecessors (and adds sensitivity in a range where either ISO is so high as to limit utility of the shot, or shutter speed is so long that you would have time to focus using live view with exposure simulation anyway).

Now, if you aggregate the incremental improvements across multiple updates, you often have what amount to significant improvements.  Of course, that only applies within a given line – I'm still struggling to figure out what the improvements are, if any, between the new T5 and the soon to be four updates-old T2i.  I do think dual pixel AF is a significant advance, though.
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Don Haines

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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2014, 05:27:51 PM »
But the most popular camera in the world is the iPhone..... where are all the iPhone photos? I think the contest is rigged!
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MichaelHodges

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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2014, 06:12:20 PM »
If they update it with more DR, I couldn't care less. I have no use for it and it would make NO impact or difference in my shots.

I'm not familiar with what you shoot, but let's say you were surprised by a thrilling subject, and your subject was backlit or accidentally underexposed due to speed/position.  At this point, you would care a great deal about shadow recovery with minimal noise and banding.

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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2014, 06:12:20 PM »

MichaelHodges

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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2014, 06:25:52 PM »

No, your original point in response to my offhanded remark was an analogy comparing the improvements in DR and resolution of the D800 to the development of camera autofocus systems and digital image sensors.  In other words, you compared modest, incremental improvements to transformative changes in technology.  That is a completely fallacious analogy. 


The amount of improvement is irrelevant to the comparison, as the analogy could easily be filled with any type of imaging improvement. I chose the subjects I did because they were informative and historical.


Quote
Now, if you're referring to your second point, about downplaying technological improvements due to brand loyalty, I'll ask you to refrain from ascribing motives to my statements, that's presumptuous.  I'm downplaying them because they're modest, incremental improvements.  Are they beneficial? In some situations, certainly.  Do they benefit the vast majority of photographers and the vast majority of shots they take, as is the case for AF and digital sensors?  No. 

I'm not so sure they are "modest".  I'd say there is a significant ability in the Sony sensors in terms of rescuing images that Canon lacks, just as Canon's implementation of IS into their telephotos allowed wildlife photogs to get shots tripod mounted off-brand shooters could not.

And who knows, maybe the Sony sensors will allow for the end of tacky light painting in landscapes. ;)

As far as the 1DX, it's an awesome camera, there's no reason to get defensive over it. There is no better camera for shooting action on this planet, period. It's just not the IQ leader.

And I vastly prefer Canon's colors, UI, handling and lens lineup, so it's not killing me as I wait for the sensor improvements. Are they "must haves" for me right now? No. But the improved DR is something I'm looking forward to.

 

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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2014, 06:39:53 PM »
.... It's just not the IQ leader.

Just curious, based on that statement, if you put an image from a 1DX against the D800, would you be able tell which is which?  Sure there are scientific methods of measuring IQ but do you actually see the differences may it be on print or on your monitor?

I'm not familiar with what you shoot, but let's say you were surprised by a thrilling subject, and your subject was backlit or accidentally underexposed due to speed/position.  At this point, you would care a great deal about shadow recovery with minimal noise and banding.

One would think that people who use a 1DX or 5D3 or D3s or D800 should not normally have that kind of issue.  But just in case there are a bunch of money bags out there who chose these as beginner cameras, Canon has a solution.  You can shoot 12FPS or 6FPS continuously at different exposure compensation.  It's called auto-bracketing.  Does that solve the DR problem?
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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2014, 07:29:37 PM »
I'm not familiar with what you shoot, but let's say you were surprised by a thrilling subject, and your subject was backlit or accidentally underexposed due to speed/position.  At this point, you would care a great deal about shadow recovery with minimal noise and banding.

I am absolutely sick of hearing about Sony sensors. They have a little more DR and a little more shadow recovery. They do not have so much more as to warrant the endless praise and discussion they receive, nor to justify the constant slamming of Canon's sensors.

The online "tests" which have caused all of this are quite obviously biased. Regardless of what is done with the Sony/Nikon files, the Canon files have all NR turned off in every "test" I've seen. I don't see noise or banding nearly as bad on an APS-C 7D that I see in the 5D3 in these online "tests". But then again, I'm not so stupid as to turn color NR off.

Even with Canon's APS-C sensors I routinely recover 2-3 stops of shadow detail with noise that is unobtrusive in a 16x20" print using ACR. If you can't do the same then you're doing it wrong.

Beyond that and both Canon and Sony sensors suffer from lack of tonality and fine detail. So I don't care much if you can push the Sony sensor +5 EV and see a little less color noise (given appropriate color NR settings) or a little less banding. I wouldn't use those shadows from either.

If Sony sensors were so dramatically better then the market share would not be so one sided between Canon and everyone else.

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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2014, 07:58:32 PM »

There is nothing that can improve the 1dx for me. I could be stupid and say a 100% accurate AF that is connected to my brain and ALWAYS focus where I think focus should be, but let's face it, that's a few years off still. I can't imagine not getting great images in any situation with the 1dx, better than any other camera. Tripod mounted or crawling in the mud or jumping a plane or anything else. I only bought the 1d3, 1d4 and 5d3 to upgrade what I didn't felt 100% happy with, not because I wanted the newest. With the 1dx I feel no need to buy anything else. It's some famous last words, I know. But it just works...
[/quote]

Exactly. That's why the 1Dx is my go to camera.
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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2014, 10:09:10 PM »
I'm not familiar with what you shoot, but let's say you were surprised by a thrilling subject, and your subject was backlit or accidentally underexposed due to speed/position.  At this point, you would care a great deal about shadow recovery with minimal noise and banding.

I am absolutely sick of hearing about Sony sensors. They have a little more DR and a little more shadow recovery. They do not have so much more as to warrant the endless praise and discussion they receive, nor to justify the constant slamming of Canon's sensors.

The online "tests" which have caused all of this are quite obviously biased. Regardless of what is done with the Sony/Nikon files, the Canon files have all NR turned off in every "test" I've seen. I don't see noise or banding nearly as bad on an APS-C 7D that I see in the 5D3 in these online "tests". But then again, I'm not so stupid as to turn color NR off.

Even with Canon's APS-C sensors I routinely recover 2-3 stops of shadow detail with noise that is unobtrusive in a 16x20" print using ACR. If you can't do the same then you're doing it wrong.

Beyond that and both Canon and Sony sensors suffer from lack of tonality and fine detail. So I don't care much if you can push the Sony sensor +5 EV and see a little less color noise (given appropriate color NR settings) or a little less banding. I wouldn't use those shadows from either.

If Sony sensors were so dramatically better then the market share would not be so one sided between Canon and everyone else.

Well said.  Photographers all over the world know that they can accidentally underexpose a shot.  It happens.  But they don't let that one factor — accidental underexposure — rule their camera choice.  There are too many other factors that matter.  Photographers know that Canon's current sensors won't stop them from winning World Press Photo or shooting the Olympics, etc.  No doubt DR and about 100 other things can be improved, but sensors have matured to the point where they don't stop one from making a photo even under some pretty extreme conditions. 

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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2014, 10:13:54 PM »

No, your original point in response to my offhanded remark was an analogy comparing the improvements in DR and resolution of the D800 to the development of camera autofocus systems and digital image sensors.  In other words, you compared modest, incremental improvements to transformative changes in technology.  That is a completely fallacious analogy. 

The amount of improvement is irrelevant to the comparison, as the analogy could easily be filled with any type of imaging improvement. I chose the subjects I did because they were informative and historical.

Well, then it's an incredibly convenient coincidence that you chose two examples which equate those improvements with paradigm shifts, implying they have a profound effect on photography.

Whether or not the amount of improvement is relevant, there's a huge difference between an 'improvement' and a transformative change.  If you want to walk around and talk on the phone, a 12' cord is an improvement over a 6' cord - but it's an incremental improvement (hint: 2 stops of DR).  To suggest that the difference between a corded and a cordless phone (hint: AF) or cellular phone (hint: digital sensors) is a good analogy for doubling the length of the cord is nonsensical.

In a few years, we'll have 16-bit ADCs in consumer cameras, then 18-bit, etc., and no one will care about when sensors went from 11 to 13 stops of DR.  But the development of AF and digital sensors will remain key watershed moments in the field of photography.  Using one as an analogy for the other is simply ridiculous.
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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2014, 10:13:54 PM »

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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2014, 02:15:55 AM »
If they update it with more DR, I couldn't care less. I have no use for it and it would make NO impact or difference in my shots.

I'm not familiar with what you shoot, but let's say you were surprised by a thrilling subject, and your subject was backlit or accidentally underexposed due to speed/position.  At this point, you would care a great deal about shadow recovery with minimal noise and banding.

Let's say with 69.000 shots I have shot with the 1dx I have learned about spot metering, reading the scene in a split second and just simply adjust and how to take a shot, combine that with an understanding of ETTR, AND the available DR of the 1dx and this is a complete non-issue. If you can't understand how to expose and you're too slow to overexposed a suddenly backlit shot, then by all means, buy your self a Sony and be happy like me.
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Re: Canon & the EOS-1D X Dominate The World Press Photo List
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2014, 02:15:55 AM »