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Author Topic: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor  (Read 103655 times)

jdramirez

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2014, 09:02:41 AM »
So as I move into my 3rd year of photography, I find my 500D isn't able to help my take my photography to the next level and its beginning to feel like my L series lenses are begging to shoot on a full frame body.

What L-lenses do you own? Zooms? In my opinion, you will never get your photography anywhere with zooms. I suggest you try primes ... like the EF 35mm f/2 (non-IS version). Already own L-primes? Definitely go "full frame" then!

I have primes... primes are lovely... but there are plenty of exceptional zooms in the Canon lineup.  I always break out my zooms when I'm not sure exactly how far my subject will be or the subject moves frequently... so yeah. 
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100L-> 85mm f/1.8 USM-> 8mm -> 85mm f/1.2L mkii

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2014, 09:02:41 AM »

Sella174

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2014, 09:06:55 AM »
My favourite photography genre is macro and I do a lot of it! Shooting with a MR-14 EX and extension tubes, I absolutely love the IQ of my subjects but equally hate the noise and banding in the shadow areas.

In this case, the EOS 70D is the obvious choice. Plus a new one will cost you less than a secondhand EOS 5D2.
Happily ignoring the laws of physics and the rules of photography to create better pictures.

jdramirez

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2014, 09:11:36 AM »
My favourite photography genre is macro and I do a lot of it! Shooting with a MR-14 EX and extension tubes, I absolutely love the IQ of my subjects but equally hate the noise and banding in the shadow areas.

In this case, the EOS 70D is the obvious choice. Plus a new one will cost you less than a secondhand EOS 5D2.

Mind showing your math? 
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100L-> 85mm f/1.8 USM-> 8mm -> 85mm f/1.2L mkii

ajfotofilmagem

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2014, 09:19:54 AM »
My favourite photography genre is macro and I do a lot of it! Shooting with a MR-14 EX and extension tubes, I absolutely love the IQ of my subjects but equally hate the noise and banding in the shadow areas.
In this case, the EOS 70D is the obvious choice. Plus a new one will cost you less than a secondhand EOS 5D2.
Mind showing your math?
In macro, often need to open F11 (on APS-C) to achieve much of the object within the depth of field. In full frame, need to use F16 or more closed to achieve the same depth of field, and this negates (in part) the advantage of full frame at high ISO. Moreover, DUAL PIXEL AF, combined with the 70D articulated LCD is great for macro.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 09:24:19 AM by ajfotofilmagem »

jdramirez

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2014, 09:25:41 AM »
My favourite photography genre is macro and I do a lot of it! Shooting with a MR-14 EX and extension tubes, I absolutely love the IQ of my subjects but equally hate the noise and banding in the shadow areas.
In this case, the EOS 70D is the obvious choice. Plus a new one will cost you less than a secondhand EOS 5D2.
Mind showing your math?
In macro, often need to open F11 (on APS-C) to achieve much of the object within the depth of field. In full frame, need to use F16 or more closed to achieve the same depth of field, and this negates (in part) the advantage of full frame at high ISO. Moreover, DUAL PIXEL AF, combined with the 70D articulated LCD is great for macro.

With the same composition and framing... yes... but at identical distances (and I'm not sure why this is) the depth of field for full frame is greater.  It's all very confusing.
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100L-> 85mm f/1.8 USM-> 8mm -> 85mm f/1.2L mkii

Sabaki

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2014, 09:41:22 AM »
My favourite photography genre is macro and I do a lot of it! Shooting with a MR-14 EX and extension tubes, I absolutely love the IQ of my subjects but equally hate the noise and banding in the shadow areas.

In this case, the EOS 70D is the obvious choice. Plus a new one will cost you less than a secondhand EOS 5D2.

Mind showing your math?

Should I rather say that macro comprises roughly 70% of my photography?

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Sella174

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2014, 09:50:08 AM »
Mind showing your math?

Over here in South Africa, a new EOS 70D cost about R12500 ... and a secondhand EOS 5D2 in good condition and serviced sells for about R15000.
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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2014, 09:50:08 AM »

mackguyver

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2014, 10:11:28 AM »
My vote is full frame - I have owned both and while there's nothing wrong with crop and many of my favorite shots are from crop cameras, FF files are better, lens focal lengths make sense (again), and low light shooting is much better.  I had the 5DII, 5DIII, and 7D for a while but ended up selling the 7D even though a lot of my work is wildlife. 

Also, FF is just as good or better for macro.  I published a 100+ macro book last year and 90% of the photos were shot on my 5DII and 5DIII - you can take a look/download it for free here: 
http://www.magcloud.com/browse/issue/648136
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 10:13:14 AM by mackguyver »
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sdsr

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2014, 10:57:42 AM »

My favourite photography genre is macro and I do a lot of it! Shooting with a MR-14 EX and extension tubes, I absolutely love the IQ of my subjects but equally hate the noise and banding in the shadow areas. Will full frame solve this issue?


If you hate noise and banding in shadows, I would (other things being equal) recommend a 6D rather than a 5DII or 5DIII - the 6D not only provides less noise at high ISOs (though the difference there among those three cameras is far less than the superiority of any) but less noise, and much less banding (I don't think I've ever seen it in a 6D file, but it's quite obvious from 5DII and 5DIII).  But if it's just a concern about high ISO noise, even a 5DII will seem like a revelation compared to any Canon APS-C body.

As for the suggestion that you buy books and learn better technique etc. with the equipment you already have, I don't agree - provided you can afford the upgrade.  A FF camera won't, of course, make you more artistic etc., but your images will look at least technically better and there will be less you will be able to blame on your tools....

Don Haines

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2014, 11:05:40 AM »
Hi everybody  :)

So as I move into my 3rd year of photography, I find my 500D isn't able to help my take my photography to the next level and its beginning to feel like my L series lenses are begging to shoot on a full frame body.

I've never had the chance to shoot full frame so most of what I know is pure theory derived from reading reviews etc online.

With South Africa's economy in a bit of trouble, I can get a hardly used 5D mkii for a reasonable price so I'm considering taking that.

Just what can I expect in terms of image quality and noise performance? Is the IQ of a full frame substantially better than a crops? Will I be able to take relatively noise free images at say ISO 3200?

The reviews seem to indicate that the native system for L series glass is full frame. Does this mean that I will experience a dramatic improvement in IQ?

The more I read, it seems that crop bodies have a singular advantage over full frame and that is the increase in focal length.

Can you guys chip in and throw some opinions and facts my way please?

Thanks in advance everybody.
If you need low light performance... FF all the way.
If you are always wishing you had a longer lens, go crop...
If you never wish you had a longer lens, go FF

If you are shooting with kit lenses on your crop camera, look at Lglass FF lenses... For instance, going from a $200 kit lens to a lens like a 70-200 (any varient) will have more effect on image quality than going from crop to FF will.

Get some decent imaging software (lightroom, photosop, etc...) and it will greatly improve your image quality, particularly if you shoot RAW.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2014, 11:24:30 AM »
As a general rule, the FF sensor will deliver a sharper image than an APS-C sensor.  The reason is simple - for a given output size, the APS-C image needs to be enlarged more, and that extra enlargement leads to a loss of resolution.  The larger sensor also gives you the capability to have a shallower DoF if you want it (the crop factor applies to aperture, too, in terms of DoF for the same framing), but if you need the additional DoF or the faster shutter speed, there's no penalty for using FF. 

Fundamentally, in most use cases, the only meaningful benefit of an APS-C camera is the lower cost.

The more I read, it seems that crop bodies have a singular advantage over full frame and that is the increase in focal length.

You're not getting an increase in FL, you're just cropping away part of the image relative to a FF sensor.  They're called crop sensors, not 'magnifying' sensors, for a reason.  What you are getting is more pixels on target, but that's solely due to the usually higher pixel density of the smaller sensors (and as a counter example, the FF Nikon D800 puts more pixels on target than the APS-C Canon T3/1100D). 

If you're focal length limited (you're using your longest lens and it's not long enough), and you're shooting at fairly low ISO, and your desired output requires more resolution than the image cropped from a FF sensor provides, then you're in one of those use cases where APS-C has an advantage other than cost.  In practice, what that means is that if you're focal length limited, printing at sizes larger than 16x24"/A2, and shooting at ~ISO 800 or lower, then APS-C is a better choice.  For 'regular' size prints and/or at higher ISOs, cropping the FF image to the FoV of the APS-C sensor will yield results that are as good or better (and increasingly better as ISO goes up).

My favourite photography genre is macro and I do a lot of it! Shooting with a MR-14 EX and extension tubes, I absolutely love the IQ of my subjects but equally hate the noise and banding in the shadow areas.

Macro is potentially another one of those 'exception' use cases.  I say potentially, becuase it really depends on what you mean by macro.  Formally, 'macro' generally means 1:1 magnification (or higher), and anything less than that (0.1x - 1x mag) is considered 'close-up' photography.  If you're at 1:1 with a macro lens, you're at the MFD (or closer if you go higher with tubes) - that means there's no DoF 'advantage' (i.e. more of it) with APS-C.  The APS-C sensor (e.g. 18-20 MP) is going to give you more pixels on target at a given magnification compared to a FF sensor (e.g. 20-22 MP), whereas the FF sensor will give you a wider AoV at that magnification. 

Below is an example of that (shot with the MP-E 65mm on a 1D X and EOS M, both at the same distance from the coin for equivalent optical magnification, and since both use 18 MP sensors, no down- or up-scaling is required for the comparison).  At 1x mag with FF you can frame nearly the whole quarter while APS-C crops much of the coin away but gives you higher resolution at the pixel level.

Personally, I usually choose FF for macro (and have done so since having both the 7D and 5DII). 
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DanielW

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2014, 01:28:19 PM »
Might be worth checking out some of the images produced on crop sensors in places like 500px. Here's a link for starters:

http://500px.com/search?q=Canon+550D

FF is disproportionately expensive, but if you can afford it and if you get more pleasure from it, why not ?

Man, don't you ever post a link like that again! Now how can I blame my camera for the lousy pics I take? :)

Sporgon

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2014, 03:02:12 PM »
Might be worth checking out some of the images produced on crop sensors in places like 500px. Here's a link for starters:

http://500px.com/search?q=Canon+550D

FF is disproportionately expensive, but if you can afford it and if you get more pleasure from it, why not ?

Man, don't you ever post a link like that again! Now how can I blame my camera for the lousy pics I take? :)

All the dslrs are incredibly competent machines, and have been for at least the last ten years, certainly in low ISOs at any rate. Sometimes if I want a reality check I'll look up something like 'Canon 10D' on 500px and proceed to embarrass myself.


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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2014, 03:02:12 PM »

ClayStevens

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2014, 09:30:57 PM »
I'm also wandering between 5D2 and 6D. Upgrade from 600D, though.

wsmith96

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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2014, 11:01:30 PM »
This past weekend I took a 5D III with me my daughter's dive meet.  I was pretty excited after what I was reading in regards to ISO performance in lower light.   I was thinking that this would be great compared to my T1i that I've got because natatoriums typically have crummy lighting in them.

Now, I'm not a pro, and I'm sure that it was me, but I pushed the ISO up to 6400 here to get a 1/1600 shutter speed to stop action of divers doing flips.   I cropped this image in LR5, but did not apply any noise reduction (color or luminance).   I wish I had my T1i with me so I could take some comparison shot, but I've attached and example of what I got during this trip.  Most of my pictures have similar output. 

After seeing this, I know that the 5D is a superior camera in all regards, but I felt this output was ho-hum.   Again, before I get beat up for speaking blasphemy - I'm not a pro, I was shooting in manual, and I just received the camera the day before the meet, so I didn't have much time to adjust to it.  I'm sure this is due to learning curve.
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Re: Full Frame Vs Crop Sensor
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2014, 11:01:30 PM »