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Author Topic: The EOS-1D X & f/8  (Read 14493 times)

xps

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2011, 04:33:34 AM »
This weekend I joined an 2 days lasting workshop for motorsportphotography. The "hardware" was one of the hot topics there. The workshop was sponsored by canon and nikon. We could test some of the better lenses for sportsphotography including the camerabodys. It was very interresting. 
In the Canon-Group the tutors from Canon were not really able to highlight their new !-Dx product for sportsphotography for normal users. They recommend the usage of this camera with an fix focal lenght lens without an converter/extender! They did not see a reason to extend the AF working at an max f=8 even at another coming camerabody. "Buy an better lens... If you can buy this body, buy an 4.0 L lens with 500 to 600mm..." was the answer :o
Almost all visitors shook their heads.
The Nikonians laughed when they heard this. Nikon was presentig themselves as a corporation that is more and more looking to become an specialist for sports- and wildlife photography.

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2011, 04:33:34 AM »

traveller

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2011, 08:45:01 AM »
This weekend I joined an 2 days lasting workshop for motorsportphotography. The "hardware" was one of the hot topics there. The workshop was sponsored by canon and nikon. We could test some of the better lenses for sportsphotography including the camerabodys. It was very interresting. 
In the Canon-Group the tutors from Canon were not really able to highlight their new !-Dx product for sportsphotography for normal users. They recommend the usage of this camera with an fix focal lenght lens without an converter/extender! They did not see a reason to extend the AF working at an max f=8 even at another coming camerabody. "Buy an better lens... If you can buy this body, buy an 4.0 L lens with 500 to 600mm..." was the answer :o
Almost all visitors shook their heads.
The Nikonians laughed when they heard this. Nikon was presentig themselves as a corporation that is more and more looking to become an specialist for sports- and wildlife photography.

Sorry, I didn't realise that the D3 series actual had f/8 AF sensors? If Nikon fit an f/8 capable AF system to the D4, then maybe this argument will hold water.  I seem to remember that Nikon did the same sort of thing to their users when they made the D3 full frame, having claimed for years that DX was the new 35mm. 

The problem with the 1DX is that Canon have not release (nor breifed their own representatives of) a definitive explanation as to why they dropped the f/8 capability.  This has lead to speculation as to whether there was a geniune technical reason (i.e. a trade off), or whether it is just Canon being mean and trying to sell 1D Mk4 upgraders longer lenses.  Personally, I believe it is more likely to be the former reason; the f/8 focusing capability was a great marketing feature over the Nikon pro bodies and I can't see that they'd drop it when everything else about this camera seems to be focused upon topping the D3s. 

neuroanatomist

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2011, 09:59:59 AM »
The problem with the 1DX is that Canon have not release (nor breifed their own representatives of) a definitive explanation as to why they dropped the f/8 capability.  This has lead to speculation as to whether there was a geniune technical reason (i.e. a trade off), or whether it is just Canon being mean and trying to sell 1D Mk4 upgraders longer lenses.

Just to be a little cynical, I do think there's a technical reason, but the engineers may have been 'discouraged' from developing a solution. 

I may have said this already, but the 1D X is the first 1-series body to use the 'dual cross' AF points (f/2.8 'x' sensor superimposed on an f/5.6 '+' sensor).  That may be too crowded for them to include an f/8-sensitive line.  It may also simply be the increased density of the points. 

I agree that many 1D-series customers could/should just 'buy a better lens' but the problem is that when you combine the loss of 1.3x crop with loss of f/8 AF, you can no longer even achieve AF at all at equivalent focal lengths that were previously possible.  For example, a few months ago I bumped into a guy shooting tiny birds with a 1D IV, 1.4x extender, and an 800mm f/5.6L IS - that's functional AF at a FF equivalent of 1450mm.  With the 1D X, the longest possible focal length with AF will be 840mm (600/4 + 1.4x) - that's over 40% shorter, and the extra 2 MP don't come anywhere close to compensating.
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1982chris911

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2011, 11:24:32 AM »

I agree that many 1D-series customers could/should just 'buy a better lens' but the problem is that when you combine the loss of 1.3x crop with loss of f/8 AF, you can no longer even achieve AF at all at equivalent focal lengths that were previously possible.  For example, a few months ago I bumped into a guy shooting tiny birds with a 1D IV, 1.4x extender, and an 800mm f/5.6L IS - that's functional AF at a FF equivalent of 1450mm.  With the 1D X, the longest possible focal length with AF will be 840mm (600/4 + 1.4x) - that's over 40% shorter, and the extra 2 MP don't come anywhere close to compensating.

From what I see the 1D X will be the best multi purpose 35mm Camera out there ... But (and that is a big BUT) it lacks the specialization of the 1D IV for sports and Wildlife. One could only guess that the next generation of APS-C sensors, which will probably be available in 2012/2013 can fill this gap. The 1.6 crop would then be again on the same level as the MK IV or even better for people who need really long focal ranges (1000mm+).

What I could imagine is kind of a more professional APS-C cam either being the 7d MKII or they introduce something like a 4D which would be a pro body APS-C.

Canon skiped the APS-H line, which makes sense as the 1D MK IV was the only body using this, so it is efficient to drop it, as they could standardize more - especially the low volume pro lines - which is after all the idea behind the 1D X.

Now the rather big question is what will be in the 5d Mk III and I see three options here:
same sensor as 1D X or same as current 5d MKII with updated AF and several other better specs (kind of a 5d II + 1Ds III + 7D mix) or a new sensor in this case a high resolution 24-36 MP one (for Architecture, Stills and Landscape use mainly like current 5d MKII) but still with mediocre AF and several other shortcomings compared to the 1D X. After all they MUST justify the possible 3000-4000$ price gap. Secondly they will/could split that line and do some more APS-C PRO line (4D) ...

So I guess in the next year or two we will see a completely different lineup in the single digit bodies 1D-7D and my own guess is that there will be a Pro APS-C (4D Option)       
5D MKII, 5D MK III, 7D, Sigma 12-24 HSM2, Canon 17-40 F/4.0 L, Canon 24-70 F/2.8 L, Canon 70-200 F/2.8 IS II L , Ext x2 III + some other stuff

xps

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2011, 01:51:59 PM »

I agree that many 1D-series customers could/should just 'buy a better lens' but the problem is that when you combine the loss of 1.3x crop with loss of f/8 AF, you can no longer even achieve AF at all at equivalent focal lengths that were previously possible.  For example, a few months ago I bumped into a guy shooting tiny birds with a 1D IV, 1.4x extender, and an 800mm f/5.6L IS - that's functional AF at a FF equivalent of 1450mm.  With the 1D X, the longest possible focal length with AF will be 840mm (600/4 + 1.4x) - that's over 40% shorter, and the extra 2 MP don't come anywhere close to compensating.

Yes, indeed, this is the problem I suffer from. I´m just an hobbyphotographer, no professional, who is able to stay in a camouflage tent for hours or days. So I often need more distance than an professional photographer to take the same shots. The second thing is, that it´s an hobby for me - so I will not spend 12000 Euros for an 800mm Canon lens. At the workshop (I wrote before) the photographers all told me, that the companies are all beginning to seperate the drivers from the riders. Telelenses with an optimal  mix between good lightperformance and an long focal length will be not brought on the market. These will be cash cows, but at all, it will be  a deficit for the companies.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 05:56:50 AM by xps »

RexGRP

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2011, 10:02:13 PM »
The issue is with using F8 lenses, not high-speed lenses set at f8. One example is a 500 f4 lens with a 2x converter.

hambergler

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2011, 11:34:31 AM »
Shooting action at f8? No thanks.  :P

I shoot VERY high speed action (200+mph model aircraft) at f/9 all the time.  It's a perfectly practical thing to do in direct sunlight.

This R/C plane was going over 200mph, and this was shot at f/9, ISO 400 and 1/2000th.

http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/aircraft/aamairshow2011/20D44665.jpg

that's 70-200 + 1.4 tc and 20D

Actually, that's 70-200/2.8L IS + two 1.4x TCs (one of them isn't visible to the lens and therefore doesn't end up in the EXIF data).

Does the camera properly read the aperture with 2 TCs?
Since you are using the f2.8 you are under f8 anyway since the camera will always use the fastest aperture (f5.6 in this case)

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2011, 11:34:31 AM »

weixing

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2011, 10:12:00 PM »
Hi,
    No AF at F8 for 1D X?? :o Then why Canon come out the new and improved Extender EF 2xIII when their new 1D X cannot AF at F8?? Is that a joke from Canon especially the description in Canon website for Extender EF 2xIII:
Quote
"Designed to extend a lenses focal length by a factor of 2x, the redesigned Canon Extender EF 2X III delivers optical performance on par with the finest Canon super telephoto lenses."
    So now only the EF 400mm F2.8L in Canon super telephoto lenses can AF when using the new Extender EF 2xIII with the new 1D X?? Just wonder what Canon is thinking??

    Anyway, I think some of my birding friends using Canon will be quite unhappy especially they get the new 2x TC III for their 600mm F4L and now the new 1D X cannot AF at F8???  :(

    Have a nice day.

MazV-L

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2011, 02:18:26 AM »
A crazy thought, but would it be possible that Canon are developing and planning to release a new 2x converter that reduces an f4 lens to f5.6 rather than f4- f8 especially for the 1DX, is this technically possible? :-\

PeterJ

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2011, 02:29:55 AM »
A crazy thought, but would it be possible that Canon are developing and planning to release a new 2x converter that reduces an f4 lens to f5.6 rather than f4- f8 especially for the 1DX, is this technically possible? :-\
It's not technically possible, it's a basic optical rule that a 2x converter results in 2 stops of light loss.

Edit - just to explain further the 2x extender means that now your lens is effectively only using half the the front area both horizonally and vertically, so it's gathering a quarter of the light or two stops. That's why you also halve the resolution of the lens which has a varying effect depending on the resolution of the sensor.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 02:38:02 AM by PeterJ »

MazV-L

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2011, 03:27:07 AM »
A crazy thought, but would it be possible that Canon are developing and planning to release a new 2x converter that reduces an f4 lens to f5.6 rather than f4- f8 especially for the 1DX, is this technically possible? :-\
It's not technically possible, it's a basic optical rule that a 2x converter results in 2 stops of light loss.

Edit - just to explain further the 2x extender means that now your lens is effectively only using half the the front area both horizonally and vertically, so it's gathering a quarter of the light or two stops. That's why you also halve the resolution of the lens which has a varying effect depending on the resolution of the sensor.
Thanks, for the explanation! Of course this makes sense.

weixing

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2011, 03:29:00 AM »
Hi,
Edit - just to explain further the 2x extender means that now your lens is effectively only using half the the front area both horizonally and vertically, so it's gathering a quarter of the light or two stops. That's why you also halve the resolution of the lens which has a varying effect depending on the resolution of the sensor.
    No... you still use the full aperture of the lenses... the light gathering capacity is still the same. The lost in 2 stops is due to the increase in magnification... basically longer focal length = higher magnification. When the magnification is increase and the aperture remain the same, the image brightness will be reduce.

   Anyway, there is a simple formula for calculating focal ratio: focal ratio = focal length / aperture
   Base on this formula 600mm F4 had an aperture of 150mm (600mm / 4 = 150mm), so when focal length is double, the focal ratio is reduce to F8 (1200mm /150mm = 8 ).

   Have a nice day.

   

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Re: The EOS-1D X & f/8
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2011, 03:29:00 AM »