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Author Topic: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]  (Read 26883 times)

Marauder

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2014, 10:00:12 PM »
The two card slots make sense, especially given that the 70D took some flak for not having dual card slots.  Moreover, it makes sense that the 7D II will have CF card.  I always smile a bit when I read predictions that the 7D II will "not have this" or "not have that" because...well...the 6D doesn't have it and it's full-frame and therefore "better." 

In point of fact, the 7D II and the 6D (like the 7D and the 5D II before them) aren't targeting the same shooter--at all.  The 7D blew the 5 D II away in terms of AF, burst speed and buffer--and the 5D II blew away the 7D for low-light and overall IQ.  Different tools for different shooting scenarios. 

All along, the stated target audience of the 7D II has been the 'action' shooter--the sports and nature photographer.  The 7D was aimed heavily towards that market and the signs are that the 7D II will be aimed at that sort of shooter to an even greater degree.

 The concept of a "mini 1DX" seems to still be the primary guiding principle, so it makes sense to give it CF cards, fast 10-12 fps burst and a deep buffer, combined with a state of the art AF system.  IQ and low-light will likely be better than the 70D, but probably only moderately so.  The main goal will be blistering performance and amazing AF, with great IQ for a crop sensor

Those of us who want this camera, don't expect it to match or exceed the IQ of full-frame cameras like the 6D or the 5D III.  If it can even come close to the IQ of the 5D II, that would be a win.  But, what it will do, is handily outperform the 6D and 5D III as an action shooter's tool, where the subject is fast, at a distance and challenging to nail--just as the 7D outperformed the 5D II in those scenarios!

I'd say that's my two cents...but we got rid of the penny here in Canada.  :o
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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2014, 10:00:12 PM »

jrista

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2014, 11:09:10 PM »
I have been thinking about this lately and am going to make a controversial prediction:

I believe the 7DII will have the highest resolution of any Canon DSLR and I think it is entirely possible that future APS-C bodies may actually end up with more resolution than high-end full frame DSLRs.

Reasoning: The strength of the APS-C format (in addition to cost) is the perceived extra "reach" of the 1.6 crop factor. Crop sensors will never match the high ISO performance or dynamic range of a full frame sensor. But, what Canon demonstrated with the 70D is that they could increase the resolution of the sensor without sacrificing ISO performance or dynamic range.

The higher resolution 70D sensor performs at least as well as the 7D sensor in these areas. And, some argue it actually performs slightly better.

I am fully aware of the argument that a full frame sensor can be cropped to the same framing as an APS-C sensor without losing much perceived resolution.

But, that argument breaks down in cases where the photographer is distance limited and must crop the crop, so to speak. I'll leave the math to those who are more adept than I am, but just point out that a 24mp APS-C sensor can have half of its pixels cropped out and still produce a 12mp image.

Focusing on higher resolution at the top end of the APS-C line allows manufacturers to better differentiate the two formats for enthusiasts and professionals. Both formats function just fine for general purposes, but if you want to shoot under the most challenging lighting situations, full frame is the better bet. If you are a portrait or studio photographer shooting under controlled conditions, the larger format is better.

But, if you are a nature photographer or a sports photographer and you need to reach as deeply into the scene as possible without getting eaten by a bear, drowned chasing waterfowl or crushed by a 250 lb player, and need to do it at 8-12 fps, then you need a high-resolution, high performance crop frame camera that has sufficient headroom for you to crop even further when necessary.

I've long said Canon and Nikon don't want to convert everyone to full frame, they want instead to sell everyone two bodies. One way to do that is to play to the strengths of each format and differentiate them at the high end.

We all know that the worldwide camera market is struggling. Nikon and Canon need to find ways to increase their sales. It's far easier to get an existing customer to buy more than it is to find a new customer. Differentiating the two DSLR formats offers the hope of greatly expanding sales using the existing base of customers.

Makes sense to me....

Give me a 25-30 megapixel crop camera for more pixels on target and give me a 16-20 megapixel FF camera for 3 stops better ISO performance... I would rather have two good tools than one mediocre general purpose tool.

Agreed!
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wickidwombat

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2014, 11:13:28 PM »
It would be nice if they use the exact same body and controls as the 5Dmk3 this would make it a viable 2nd body
I also hope it gets full 5Dmk3 AF

I think they would be better off keeping the MP modest and helping high iso improve as that is where crop sensors really fall down. really the difference in image between 22MP and 25 MP is next to nothing

dual card slots would be great I hope its CF and SD like the 5Dmk3 well not exactly like that, maybe they could make the SD slot perform better than the 5Dmk3 ::)

of course I still think they should resurrect the APS-H sensor for the 7D which will give it a significant ISO boost while retaining a good crop bonus 22MP APS-H would be really nice. (OK Let the APS-C Zealots loose on me i'm a self confessed heretic! :P )
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 11:16:15 PM by wickidwombat »
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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2014, 11:50:14 PM »
I also hope it gets full 5Dmk3 AF
I'd be disappointed if it did.... I'm hoping to see the emergence of a new AF system that will set the standard for years to come...

If the improvements were incremental changes, it would have been out by now. The delays could mean something completely different.
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robdubbleu

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2014, 11:51:12 PM »
Hmmm.... very interesting thing I came across.  I was comparing specs of cameras and look what I found....

http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon-EOS-7D-MII-vs-Canon_EOS_Digital_Rebel_XSi

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2014, 12:08:42 AM »
Hmmm.... very interesting thing I came across.  I was comparing specs of cameras and look what I found....

http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon-EOS-7D-MII-vs-Canon_EOS_Digital_Rebel_XSi


Not bad.... even DXO scores for an imaginary body that has not been released.....
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jrista

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2014, 12:23:54 AM »
I also hope it gets full 5Dmk3 AF
I'd be disappointed if it did.... I'm hoping to see the emergence of a new AF system that will set the standard for years to come...

If the improvements were incremental changes, it would have been out by now. The delays could mean something completely different.

You mean set a standard higher than the 61pt AF system? I think that one will be hard to beat. I've never seen an AF system lock on so fast, consistently, and easily as Canon'a 61pt AF system. What exactly would you improve in it? It certainly isn't broken, and certainly isn't something to be disappointed about if it found it's way into the 7D II.

When it comes to DPAF, that is an entirely different kind of AF for an entirely different purpose. As someone who uses PDAF for the very vast majority of his photography, I don't see DPAF taking over any time soon. While it is certainly cool technology, it's really just the beginning of the leg up that mirrorless needs to BEGIN to compete with what PDAF units currently offer. I think its going to be a few iterations, especially the one where it becomes QPAF, before we see sensor-based AF reaching the level of consistency, speed, and performance of PDAF.

And even then...it would require an EVF to function entirely properly...and EVFs have just as long a way to come before they can really be viable replacements for OVFs...

If the 7D II gets the 61pt AF system, I'd personally be ecstatic!
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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2014, 12:23:54 AM »

wickidwombat

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2014, 12:29:25 AM »
If the 7D II gets the 61pt AF system, I'd personally be ecstatic!

I think it will be the single most determining feature that could convince me to get this camera or not bother
I believe it is likely as the system is well tested now with most bugs ironed out other than AF point illumination still being an issue, I wonder if they will fix that? it would be nice if they did
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Tugela

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2014, 12:30:11 AM »
Hmmm.... very interesting thing I came across.  I was comparing specs of cameras and look what I found....

http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon-EOS-7D-MII-vs-Canon_EOS_Digital_Rebel_XSi


Not bad.... even DXO scores for an imaginary body that has not been released.....


Not to mention that it was announced a year ago, and apparently no one heard about it.

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2014, 12:31:21 AM »
I also hope it gets full 5Dmk3 AF
I'd be disappointed if it did.... I'm hoping to see the emergence of a new AF system that will set the standard for years to come...

If the improvements were incremental changes, it would have been out by now. The delays could mean something completely different.

You mean set a standard higher than the 61pt AF system? I think that one will be hard to beat. I've never seen an AF system lock on so fast, consistently, and easily as Canon'a 61pt AF system. What exactly would you improve in it? It certainly isn't broken, and certainly isn't something to be disappointed about if it found it's way into the 7D II.

When it comes to DPAF, that is an entirely different kind of AF for an entirely different purpose. As someone who uses PDAF for the very vast majority of his photography, I don't see DPAF taking over any time soon. While it is certainly cool technology, it's really just the beginning of the leg up that mirrorless needs to BEGIN to compete with what PDAF units currently offer. I think its going to be a few iterations, especially the one where it becomes QPAF, before we see sensor-based AF reaching the level of consistency, speed, and performance of PDAF.

And even then...it would require an EVF to function entirely properly...and EVFs have just as long a way to come before they can really be viable replacements for OVFs...

If the 7D II gets the 61pt AF system, I'd personally be ecstatic!

A 62pt AF system would be vastly superior.

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2014, 12:59:08 AM »
I also hope it gets full 5Dmk3 AF
I'd be disappointed if it did.... I'm hoping to see the emergence of a new AF system that will set the standard for years to come...

If the improvements were incremental changes, it would have been out by now. The delays could mean something completely different.

You mean set a standard higher than the 61pt AF system? I think that one will be hard to beat. I've never seen an AF system lock on so fast, consistently, and easily as Canon'a 61pt AF system. What exactly would you improve in it? It certainly isn't broken, and certainly isn't something to be disappointed about if it found it's way into the 7D II.

When it comes to DPAF, that is an entirely different kind of AF for an entirely different purpose. As someone who uses PDAF for the very vast majority of his photography, I don't see DPAF taking over any time soon. While it is certainly cool technology, it's really just the beginning of the leg up that mirrorless needs to BEGIN to compete with what PDAF units currently offer. I think its going to be a few iterations, especially the one where it becomes QPAF, before we see sensor-based AF reaching the level of consistency, speed, and performance of PDAF.

And even then...it would require an EVF to function entirely properly...and EVFs have just as long a way to come before they can really be viable replacements for OVFs...

If the 7D II gets the 61pt AF system, I'd personally be ecstatic!

A 62pt AF system would be vastly superior.
To my mind, the biggest advantage Canon has is the AF system in it's higher end models.... the 5D3 system is certainly nothing to be sneezed at... but think about how it could be improved... Think about recognizing a bird and tracking it through trees! I have a p/s that can recognize and differentiate between a cat and a dog.... surely a DSLR with two higher end processors can do better? The 7D2 might be the camera that takes AF to the next level... and what about linking exposure to focus points? What about using the split pixels to vastly improve DR?

There are a lot of things that could happen and I eagerly await to see which ones they give us.... It should be an interesting release... certainly more than a mode dial that goes all the way around. :)
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Aglet

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2014, 01:07:59 AM »
And even then...it would require an EVF to function entirely properly...and EVFs have just as long a way to come before they can really be viable replacements for OVFs...

I'd say today's better EVF's are already more than adequate.
My pretty new Fuji XT1's EVF is a pleasure to use, more than adequate resolution and the high frame rate greatly reduces the lag compared to the older Xe bodies.
Combine that with the great low-light gain-up ability Canon's have and these things already see better in the dark than we do.
One more development iteration and OVF has serious competition.

the only thing I don't like about it...
I keep bringing the camera up to my eye to frame a possible shot and have to remember to turn it ON first... (I'm always in battery conservation mode)
And that's still the 2nd shortcoming... using an EVF still eats a lot of power.  I see this being a major consideration when I'm in the wilds for a few days.

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2014, 01:23:40 AM »
I also hope it gets full 5Dmk3 AF
I'd be disappointed if it did.... I'm hoping to see the emergence of a new AF system that will set the standard for years to come...

If the improvements were incremental changes, it would have been out by now. The delays could mean something completely different.

You mean set a standard higher than the 61pt AF system? I think that one will be hard to beat. I've never seen an AF system lock on so fast, consistently, and easily as Canon'a 61pt AF system. What exactly would you improve in it? It certainly isn't broken, and certainly isn't something to be disappointed about if it found it's way into the 7D II.

When it comes to DPAF, that is an entirely different kind of AF for an entirely different purpose. As someone who uses PDAF for the very vast majority of his photography, I don't see DPAF taking over any time soon. While it is certainly cool technology, it's really just the beginning of the leg up that mirrorless needs to BEGIN to compete with what PDAF units currently offer. I think its going to be a few iterations, especially the one where it becomes QPAF, before we see sensor-based AF reaching the level of consistency, speed, and performance of PDAF.

And even then...it would require an EVF to function entirely properly...and EVFs have just as long a way to come before they can really be viable replacements for OVFs...

If the 7D II gets the 61pt AF system, I'd personally be ecstatic!

A 62pt AF system would be vastly superior.
To my mind, the biggest advantage Canon has is the AF system in it's higher end models.... the 5D3 system is certainly nothing to be sneezed at... but think about how it could be improved... Think about recognizing a bird and tracking it through trees! I have a p/s that can recognize and differentiate between a cat and a dog.... surely a DSLR with two higher end processors can do better? The 7D2 might be the camera that takes AF to the next level... and what about linking exposure to focus points? What about using the split pixels to vastly improve DR?

There are a lot of things that could happen and I eagerly await to see which ones they give us.... It should be an interesting release... certainly more than a mode dial that goes all the way around. :)

When it comes to locking onto and tracking subjects through trees, I do that now with my old 7D and its 19pt AF system. Achieving that is largely a matter of tuning the AF system...getting the right tracking jump rate and using the right point size. The 61pt AF system is far more capable than the 7Ds, and tracking through trees has not generally been a problem for me. Locking on can be tricky, however the 1D X with it's subject identification capabilities using the new metering sensor handles it pretty well. The 1D X also locks onto animal faces...it seems to recognize the general shape of a face, even if it isn't human, and is even capable of doing it in profile.

These kinds of things aren't new, and aren't limited you your P&S. Now, there has always been the metering/AF split between the 1D line and everything else. The advanced integrated meter has always been a "premium" feature. That's a canon thing...they may or may not ever change that, but that is certainly not a limitation of the hardware.

Regarding linking "exposure" to focus points...do you mean link metering to AF points? Again, that's been done, it isn't new technology, it's just one of those things Canon relegates to the 1D line. Otherwise, I don't know what you mean by linking exposure to focus points.

As for split pixels improving DR...I don't believe that is possible. Those pixels receive the same amount of light. Split or a single pixel, the amount of light is the same. Now, assuming you are thinking "read one at ISO 100, the other at ISO 800". That isn't really going to help. It's HALF a pixel. For both ISOs, if you only read half of each pixel at a given ISO, then your halving the signal strength. Noise is the SQRT of the signal, so noise will jump considerably.

For example, at FWC ISO 100 on the 70D you get 26726e-, but at half the pixel, you would only get 13363e-. Your noise at 26726 is 163.5e-, and at 13363 it's 115.6e-. Your signal was halved, but your noise as a ratio of the signal only dropped by 30%. Your ISO 100 "half" image is 41% noisier than if you had used the full pixels. Similarly, at ISO 800 your saturation point is 4055e-. Half that you get 2027.5e-. Noise wise, you have 63.7e- at max saturation, and 45e- with a half pixel. Noise as a ratio of the signal dropped by 30%, but your half-pixel ISO 800 image is once again 41% noisier than if you had used full pixels. It would basically be like using ISO 200 instead of ISO 100, or ISO 1600 instead of ISO 800.

This is just referring to the noise intrinsic to the signal...it has nothing to do with read noise.  So, assuming you can use this to reduce the impact of read noise on dynamic range...well, you've considerably increased noise levels by only reading half a pixel...so your probably going to end up with a net...nothing. No gain, no real loss. Maybe you get "cleaner" noise, but dual pixel designs aren't going to be the magic bullet for increasing Canon sensor DR.
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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2014, 01:23:40 AM »

jrista

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2014, 01:27:58 AM »
And even then...it would require an EVF to function entirely properly...and EVFs have just as long a way to come before they can really be viable replacements for OVFs...

I'd say today's better EVF's are already more than adequate.
My pretty new Fuji XT1's EVF is a pleasure to use, more than adequate resolution and the high frame rate greatly reduces the lag compared to the older Xe bodies.
Combine that with the great low-light gain-up ability Canon's have and these things already see better in the dark than we do.
One more development iteration and OVF has serious competition.

the only thing I don't like about it...
I keep bringing the camera up to my eye to frame a possible shot and have to remember to turn it ON first... (I'm always in battery conservation mode)
And that's still the 2nd shortcoming... using an EVF still eats a lot of power.  I see this being a major consideration when I'm in the wilds for a few days.

For me, it's all about pixel density. I have 20/10 vision with my contacts in. For all the EVF's I've tried, I can CLEARLY see the pixels. It's utterly horrid, IMO, and not a single EVF, even sony's best, has ever even remotely compared to an OVF for me. And that's just one of the problems. They all seem to have relatively low color fidelity...they can't finely differentiate colors, as if they are low bit depth (probably are, in order to handle the refresh rates). They always seem to have a bit of posterization as you transition from highlights to shadows, especially when the transition is more abrupt than gradual.

IMO, these things are 100% entirely unacceptable. I guess most people don't see them, like most people don't see the pixels in an Apple Retina screen (Apple's Retina is NOT high enough resolution for someone with 20/18 vision, let alone 20/10...although some of Samsung's latest screens are finally getting there.)

EVFs have a long way to go before they can be acceptable to the broadest market. People with normal or less than normal vision are probably fine, as they apparently cannot see pixels all that much. But the number of people with better than normal vision combined with the number of people who have corrective lenses (like myself) that give them better than normal vision are currently getting shafted by the underlying poorer quality of EVFs.
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Larry

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2014, 01:55:27 AM »
Anyone else sick and tired of seeing threads about 7D MK II ???

Up to 3 pages as I type this.
Some interesting thoughts have been provoked and posted.
Its a "Canon rumor" on a Canon Rumors forum.
Nothing sickening or tiring to this viewer.
Exactly what the forum claims to be about, what I therefore expect, and what I come here for.

For a contrast, see the "bird" posts, which seldom address anything rumor-ish. (As it happens, I enjoy them also, …but they are definitely not what brings me to CR.)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 01:57:12 AM by Larry »

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Re: EOS 7D Replacement Mentioned Again [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2014, 01:55:27 AM »