June 23, 2018, 06:16:22 PM

Author Topic: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)  (Read 18832 times)

GuyF

  • EOS 5D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 688
5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« on: March 11, 2014, 03:07:30 PM »
Just a quick question on behalf of a work colleague. I should say I'm very sceptical, but anyway.....

He uses a 5D3 and 70-200mm f2.8 mk2 to shoot football matches. Normally he would keep things at f2.8 (thanks to the near-constant Scottish gloom) and let the camera do the rest. Whilst pretty happy with those results, for whatever reason decided to go fully manual and constantly juggle aperture and shutter speed to suit. Auto ISO is not used. He claims (RAW) exposures need next to no tweaking regarding over/under exposure. Now here's the thing, he says images appear sharper as a result of using manual exposure compared to Av priority.

I said I doubted things being sharper unless he's just using an "on average" faster shutter speed thus reducing any shake. He's been taking football pics for years and should know the minimum shutter speed he can get away with and seems quite convinced of the improvement.

So, sharper images when using manual exposure - is he just fooling himself? The obvious thing is for him to set up a test chart and do an Av priority shot compared to a manual exposure one. Personally, I ain't buying it.

Any thoughts?

canon rumors FORUM

5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« on: March 11, 2014, 03:07:30 PM »

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ***************
  • Posts: 22710
Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2014, 03:12:08 PM »
He's not telling you the whole story.  You can get sharper RAW images with manual exposure, but only if you take the shots by pressing the shutter release on the battery grip instead of the body, while standing on your left foot, on Saturdays within three days of a full moon.
EOS 1D X, EOS M6, lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

GuyF

  • EOS 5D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 688
Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2014, 03:15:09 PM »
Yeah Neuro, kinda what I was thinking. Said I'd ask for a consensus. I feel more people will post similar things to yourself. Ah well......

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ***************
  • Posts: 22710
Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2014, 03:22:37 PM »
On a serious note, the 70-200/2.8L IS II gets a bit sharper when stopped down (that's true for most lenses, although the 70-200 II doesn't improve all that much since it's excellent right from max aperture).  Stopping down also reduces the vignetting (the 70-200 II has a fair bit wide open, and a standard UV/clear filter mount adds to vignetting, which is unusual for a tele lens).

So, if he's using somewhat narrower apertures when setting exposure manually vs. Av mode fixed at f/2.8, there would be a bit more sharpness from that, and assuming some sort of lens profile is being applied to correct for vignetting in the RAW images, the increased exposure will increase noise at the edges of the frame, so some RAW converters also apply a bit of NR in those regions, which can cost a bit of sharpness.
EOS 1D X, EOS M6, lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

mackguyver

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 4016
  • Master of Pain
    • My Personal Work
Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2014, 03:43:00 PM »
There's another possible explanation as well - have him compare his shutter speeds.  If he's using setting a low(er) ISO or using Auto ISO and in Av mode, he's probably getting lower shutter speeds and with a subject like football, there's definitely a difference between motion blur at 1/500s and 1/1000s or higher, which I presume he used in M mode.  With most sports, 1/1000s is the minimum you want to use to freeze subject motion.  The difference in motion blur may not be huge depending the difference in shutter speeds, but it's enough to make one photo look soft and the other sharp.
CPS Score: 111 points, those 0 and 1 point items really add up

flowers

  • Guest
Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2014, 04:32:36 PM »
There is no reason to use Av mode for anything. Manual exposure will always give better results and is not slower. You set the exposure at the beginning of the game and leave it at that. If something crazy like the weather turning from full sunshine to a thunderstorm happens you can easily adjust the shutter speed or aperture, takes no time at all. I don't think Av mode has any advantage and for football or other sports it makes no sense at all. For sports you would use Tv priority because shutter speed is more important to freeze motion, but again manual exposure is less of a hassle than Tv and EC. Human perception of sharpness is based on contrast. Auto exposure overexposes leading to less contrast and softer appearance.

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ***************
  • Posts: 22710
Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 04:55:29 PM »
There is no reason to use Av mode for anything. Manual exposure will always give better results and is not slower. You set the exposure at the beginning of the game and leave it at that. If something crazy like the weather turning from full sunshine to a thunderstorm happens you can easily adjust the shutter speed or aperture, takes no time at all. I don't think Av mode has any advantage and for football or other sports it makes no sense at all. For sports you would use Tv priority because shutter speed is more important to freeze motion, but again manual exposure is less of a hassle than Tv and EC. Human perception of sharpness is based on contrast. Auto exposure overexposes leading to less contrast and softer appearance.

Agree about using Tv as the preferred autoexposure mode.  How much football have you shot?  I've shot many games, and it's pretty common for part of the field to be in the shadow of the stands/bleachers.  The action moves from sun to shade and back constantly, and autoexposure can be very helpful in that scenario (whether Tv mode or manual mode with Auto ISO).  FWIW, much of my sports shooting was in the film days, when autoexposure was brand new, autofocus was way over my budget, and changing ISO on the fly was a pipe dream. 

As for, "Auto exposure overexposes," that shouldn't normally be the case.  If your camera consistently overexposes in the autoexposure modes, perhaps it needs to be serviced.
EOS 1D X, EOS M6, lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 04:55:29 PM »

Sporgon

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3589
  • 5% of gear used 95% of the time
    • www.buildingpanoramics.com
Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2014, 04:56:23 PM »
There is no reason to use Av mode for anything.

Ouch !

Viggo

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3186
Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2014, 05:13:38 PM »
There is no reason to use Av mode for anything. Manual exposure will always give better results and is not slower. You set the exposure at the beginning of the game and leave it at that. If something crazy like the weather turning from full sunshine to a thunderstorm happens you can easily adjust the shutter speed or aperture, takes no time at all. I don't think Av mode has any advantage and for football or other sports it makes no sense at all. For sports you would use Tv priority because shutter speed is more important to freeze motion, but again manual exposure is less of a hassle than Tv and EC. Human perception of sharpness is based on contrast. Auto exposure overexposes leading to less contrast and softer appearance.

With the 1-series you can set your minimum shutter for example at 1/1000s in Av, so you can get up to 1/8000s if there is enough light, and like Neuro said, if a player drops in to the shadows or into the sun, you will never have longer shutter than 1/1000s, but always correct exposure.

And try to image just how incredibly useful this is at a concert with mental flashing lights.

"No reason to use Av" whatever...
1dx mkII, 35 L II, Zeiss 50 f2 mp, 85 L IS, Broncolor Siros 800 L.

raptor3x

  • EOS 7D Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 495
Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2014, 05:27:33 PM »

With the 1-series you can set your minimum shutter for example at 1/1000s in Av, so you can get up to 1/8000s if there is enough light, and like Neuro said, if a player drops in to the shadows or into the sun, you will never have longer shutter than 1/1000s, but always correct exposure.

Pretty sure that's only for the 1DX and even then only with the most recent firmware update.  Previous bodies were, for no obvious reason, limited to 1/60th of a second for minimum shutter speed.
Bodies: X-T1, E-M1, E-M1ii, Pen-F Lenses:  µ.Z 7-14 2.8, µ.Z 12-40 2.8, µ.Z 17 1.8, µ.Z 25 1.2, X 18-55 2.8-4, µ.Z 40-150 2.8, µ.Z 60 2.8, µ.Z 75 1.8, Z 150 2.0, µ.Z 300 4.0

Viggo

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 3186
Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2014, 05:51:41 PM »

With the 1-series you can set your minimum shutter for example at 1/1000s in Av, so you can get up to 1/8000s if there is enough light, and like Neuro said, if a player drops in to the shadows or into the sun, you will never have longer shutter than 1/1000s, but always correct exposure.

Pretty sure that's only for the 1DX and even then only with the most recent firmware update.  Previous bodies were, for no obvious reason, limited to 1/60th of a second for minimum shutter speed.

No, 1dx always had this function, the 1d4 also has this. "Set Shutterspeed range"

*edit* the 1d3 also has this function.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 05:56:47 PM by Viggo »
1dx mkII, 35 L II, Zeiss 50 f2 mp, 85 L IS, Broncolor Siros 800 L.

mackguyver

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 4016
  • Master of Pain
    • My Personal Work
Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2014, 05:52:42 PM »

With the 1-series you can set your minimum shutter for example at 1/1000s in Av, so you can get up to 1/8000s if there is enough light, and like Neuro said, if a player drops in to the shadows or into the sun, you will never have longer shutter than 1/1000s, but always correct exposure.

Pretty sure that's only for the 1DX and even then only with the most recent firmware update.  Previous bodies were, for no obvious reason, limited to 1/60th of a second for minimum shutter speed.
1/250s, but yes, for no apparent reason other than to annoy anyone needing faster shutter speeds ;)
CPS Score: 111 points, those 0 and 1 point items really add up

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ***************
  • Posts: 22710
Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2014, 06:42:51 PM »

With the 1-series you can set your minimum shutter for example at 1/1000s in Av, so you can get up to 1/8000s if there is enough light, and like Neuro said, if a player drops in to the shadows or into the sun, you will never have longer shutter than 1/1000s, but always correct exposure.

Pretty sure that's only for the 1DX and even then only with the most recent firmware update.  Previous bodies were, for no obvious reason, limited to 1/60th of a second for minimum shutter speed.

Nope. You're correct in terms of the 'min shutter speed in Av mode' setting (which goes up to 1/250 s before the 1D X firmware v2).  However, the ability to restrict the range for shutter speed and aperture (i.e., set a min and max) have long been a 1-series feature.  Minimum can be set one stop short of the max possible, and vice versa.

In Tv mode, it's nice when shooting a fast lens to be able to set a max aperture to maintain sufficient DoF, for example.
EOS 1D X, EOS M6, lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2014, 06:42:51 PM »

Dick

  • EOS M5
  • ****
  • Posts: 165
Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2014, 06:53:30 PM »

In Tv mode, it's nice when shooting a fast lens to be able to set a max aperture to maintain sufficient DoF, for example.

Then again, M mode with exposure compensation would more or less make the other modes pointless. Oh... 1DX has that too.
EOS 5D Mark III
8-15L, 24-105L, 24L II, 85L II, 100L + a 35mm Sigma

j1jenkins

  • PowerShot G7 X Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 19
Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2014, 07:32:25 PM »
I have the exact same rig and while I can't speak for the Scottish gloom he mentions, I can speak for Av.  I use AV quite a bit when shooting sports like baseball.  I set the aperture to 3.5 and let the camera work the timing value.  That aperture at 20' gives a nice sharp pic with great bokeh.  For my own uses, it's great.  Occasionally there is a pause while the body determines a value, but that might happen 1-2times in 1500 shots.  I would love to see Canon push some of the 1D features mentioned above down to the 5D....but I'm not holding my breath. 

canon rumors FORUM

Re: 5D3 sharper images when using manual exposure (allegedly!)
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2014, 07:32:25 PM »