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Author Topic: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)  (Read 29353 times)

unfocused

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2011, 06:10:51 PM »
Quote
All I was trying to say is that Canon obviously did not sell such a great many of 7Ds as they might have hoped for.

Can you document this? Amazon lists the 7D body at #9 (5DII is #14) and indicates it has been in the top 100 DSLRs for 787 weeks (which roughly coincides with its entire lifespan) This does not include two versions with kit lenses that are ranked #29 and #34.

Granted Amazon is just one dealer, but it is sufficiently large to serve as a reasonably representative sample of the relative sales rankings of products.

If you have access to better sales figures, please share them. I have never come across anything that would indicate that the 7D has not been a very successful camera for Canon.

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2011, 06:10:51 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2011, 06:11:18 PM »
My prediction: the 7D will go away. The 60D will go away. APS-H sensors will go away. Cropped sensors will be strictly for the budget line.

...and people who are frequently focal length limited will....  ??   :o

The 7D might go away or APS-H might go away, but if so, I hope Canon will still have a high frame rate, pro build, crop sensor body.  They took away AF with f/8 from the 1-series, leaving 840mm as the longest possible focal length with supported AF and pro build.
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briansquibb

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2011, 06:14:55 PM »
.... and a 7d with 800 f5.6 is the equvalent of 1280.... cant see Canon dumping that in a hurry

elflord

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2011, 06:55:05 PM »
Not quite that simple -- if I do the same comparison for the 135 and the 85, the 135mm f/2 replaces the 85mm f/1.2 on full frame (at about half the price) and the 200mm f/2.8 replaces the 135mm f/2.  On full frame, lenses like the 85mm f/1.2, f/2.8 zooms, and the 200mm f/2 have no replacement on APS-C that provides the same dof and fov. So if you want shallow dof, you are much better off with FF.

In terms of the 400mm f/2.8 -- you have the 600mm f/4 which is about the same weight.

You will generally get more reach for less $ on APS-C though (you also have access to several very good and inexpensive wide angle choices)

I might be going stupid but I dont understand how can a one stop slower lens be the equivalent?

They are equivalent in fov and dof. They are not equivalent in terms of exposure because you need to bump ISO by a stop to get the same exposure. However, the larger full frame sensor will perform better at high ISO.

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135 f/2 is not the same as a 200 f/2.8, a 85 f1.2 is not the same as a 135f2, a 400 2.8 is not the same as a 600/f4 -

No, they are not "the same" -- the only lens that is "the same" as the 135mm f/2 is the 135mm f/2. However, that lens will behave different on a full frame body vs a crop body. If you're looking for equivalence in terms of dof and fov, then my comments are correct.

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please consider that there is a lot more to photography than a shallow dof - in these cases low light and speed.

The full frame sensor performs better at high ISO.  You bump the ISO by one stop with a 200mm f/2.8 on full frame, and your dof, fov and noise level is comparable (maybe not exactly the same, but same ballpark) as your 135mm f/2 on a crop.

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Shallow dof  works against most photos in ff - macro, wildlife, landscapes - even street shots in poor light.
Yes, but if you want a lot of dof, why are you using an 85mm f/1.2 or a 300mm f/2.8 ?

I agree that a crop has the upper hand when you are at the other end of the aperture range.


briansquibb

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2011, 07:08:34 PM »

Yes, but if you want a lot of dof, why are you using an 85mm f/1.2 or a 300mm f/2.8 ?


Because sometimes I want a lot of dof and sometimes I dont. I think most people use the whole range. As I have 5DII and 7D the lens get used on both - for different situations. Try the 400 f2.8@f11 for landscapes on the 5DII if you want to see top IQ - on the other hand the 5DII does not hack action pictures with it AF - so the 400 f2.8 goes on the 7D shooting wide open. One lens two uses - and just because I bought a $1500 7D I dont have to buy a $10,000 600f4.


7enderbender

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2011, 07:18:43 PM »
Quote
All I was trying to say is that Canon obviously did not sell such a great many of 7Ds as they might have hoped for.

Can you document this? Amazon lists the 7D body at #9 (5DII is #14) and indicates it has been in the top 100 DSLRs for 787 weeks (which roughly coincides with its entire lifespan) This does not include two versions with kit lenses that are ranked #29 and #34.

Granted Amazon is just one dealer, but it is sufficiently large to serve as a reasonably representative sample of the relative sales rankings of products.

If you have access to better sales figures, please share them. I have never come across anything that would indicate that the 7D has not been a very successful camera for Canon.

a) I've heard that from a local dealer and have no specif data to back that up
b) I remember when it first came out dealers here in the area assumed that the 7D would be a big hit and would   put a dent into their 5DII sales

but

c) if you look at the camera usage stats on flickr for instance you'll see that there are over 10,000 average daily users who have one of the recent Rebels. Around 4,100 have a 5DII. 3,300 have a 7D and only 1700 used a 60D.

You could argue that the 5DII has been around for longer and that the data may be kind of shaky to begin with, but given the price points and the significantly larger audience that is prone to buy more on the budget side and interested in crop sensors, Canon probably expected this to be in a different order. Especially the 60D must bum them out, though I totally understand why it may have tanked.

 But then again, there is a lot of guesstimating here on my part and this is far from a scientific market analysis that people pay thousands upon thousands of dollars for.
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briansquibb

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2011, 07:33:58 PM »
c) if you look at the camera usage stats on flickr for instance you'll see that there are over 10,000 average daily users who have one of the recent Rebels. Around 4,100 have a 5DII. 3,300 have a 7D and only 1700 used a 60D.

That is a valid analysis of those who use Flickr.

Perhaps 7D and 5DII users post on to their own websites as I expect they have more money and perhaps looking to sell their images.

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2011, 07:33:58 PM »

unfocused

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2011, 07:58:41 PM »
c) if you look at the camera usage stats on flickr for instance you'll see that there are over 10,000 average daily users who have one of the recent Rebels. Around 4,100 have a 5DII. 3,300 have a 7D and only 1700 used a 60D.

That is a valid analysis of those who use Flickr.

Perhaps 7D and 5DII users post on to their own websites as I expect they have more money and perhaps looking to sell their images.

Good points. There are so many variables that extrapolating anything meaningful from that kind of data is impossible. Some irony here in that seven's own data would indicate that there are 3.6 times as many APS-C owners using Flicker as full-frame 5D II owners. One could make an argument with equal validity that the market for full frame bodies is shrinking and they are in danger of disappearing.

I'm not suggesting this, I'm just pointing out that with statistics, like with most things, the rule of garbage in/garbage out applies.
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niccyboy

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2011, 08:01:18 PM »
I, nor any of the photogs that work for me have Flickr, it isn't that big for Aus.

I don't think either of your data really backs up your points to be honest.

Amazon will obviously sell more of a lower price point camera aimed at consumers and prosumers as opposed to camera dedicated sites. It's just the nature of the website.. However it does show that clearly the 7d is not a failure sales wise.

Digi rev, adorama or bh would be a better sales comparison

Flickr may show a spread but not all purchasers and photographers have Flickr.

I personally am surprised at how many users on here have a 7d! So many posts reference that crop.

I think both models are needed in the canon lineup.

If they were to lose a crop I think the 60d is more disposable.

1100, 600, 60, 7d - that's for consumer crops...
1100-cheap and great to steal some p+s upgraders first timers
600-seems to be quite a seller this series (400/450/500/550)..
60- great for video with swivel screen
7d- fast fps and weather sealed, great for birds and sports. Great backup for 5d

I think the 7 is an essential part of the lineup

x-vision

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2011, 10:34:34 PM »
But then again, there is a lot of guesstimating here on my part and this is far from a scientific market analysis that people pay thousands upon thousands of dollars for.

I don't have any formal data either. For the past 1-2 months, though, I've been following the best selling DSLRs on Amazon - and I tend to agree with your assessments.

Overall, my impression is that the 5DII is indeed continuing to sell extremely well (considering its price point).
The 7D has lost steam and the 60D is definitely not selling well for a camera of its class.

Canon just split the xxD line into 7D and 60D but in the next product cycle there will be another reshuffling, IMO.
Can't predict what Canon will do but I think it's too early to kill off the premium 1.6x models just yet.
Just the opposite - both the 70D and 7DII will likely go upmarket, IMO.


Meh

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2011, 11:04:45 PM »
c) if you look at the camera usage stats on flickr for instance you'll see that there are over 10,000 average daily users who have one of the recent Rebels. Around 4,100 have a 5DII. 3,300 have a 7D and only 1700 used a 60D. 

You could argue that the 5DII has been around for longer...


Regarding the numbers for 5D2 and 7D, I'm inclined to think the fact the 5D2 was released a year earlier is quite significant.  At the time, the 5D2 was quickly grabbed up by huge numbers of "enthusiasts" most of whom wouldn't have bought a 7D as a second body.  In other words, many/most of the enthusiast market willing to buy at the higher price points already went with the 5D2.  So by the time the 7D came out the middle-market was partially saturated and a higher percentage of those that bought the 7D might have picked up a 5D2 as they progressed in their photography.   I'm just guessing but that seems logical to me (because I am one of the latter ;) ) and if so it would partially explain the stats.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2011, 11:12:52 PM by Meh »

briansquibb

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2011, 12:11:09 AM »
"progressed from a 7D to a 5DII" now that is a contentious statement.

This is a presumption that APS-C is the cheaper, less worthy camera and that only 'real' photographers graduate to full frame - ie sensor snobbery.

When will people realise that Full frame and Crop bodies are just tools for different jobs. One is not better than the other - just different.

I have both a 5DII and a 7D - so which body do I use most? If I believed in sensor snobbery then I would only use the 7D as a backup. Well reality is different - the 7D is a very good all round camera that probably gets at least 50 per cent of my use.

The key to which one I use very much depends on the best fit lens - unless it is macro shot in which case the 7D is always used as it give more options - ie more dof, 1.6 magnification and better AF on moving insects.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 12:28:11 AM by briansquibb »

scottsdaleriots

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2011, 03:50:22 AM »
5dIII will be my first FF camera, i've already got a 7d so i don't see the need to upgeade to 7dII, however i'd def take a look at the spec list for the 7dII when it's availble :P

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2011, 03:50:22 AM »

Meh

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2011, 11:30:44 AM »
"progressed from a 7D to a 5DII" now that is a contentious statement.

This is a presumption that APS-C is the cheaper, less worthy camera and that only 'real' photographers graduate to full frame - ie sensor snobbery.

When will people realise that Full frame and Crop bodies are just tools for different jobs. One is not better than the other - just different.


If you're referring to my comment, then what I said was "picked up a 5D2 as they progressed in their photography" which did not imply that either camera was better than the other.  I agree they have different strengths and weaknesses... the 7D is far superior for sports action photography for example but the 5D2.  My point was only about the relative likelihood of the large group of 5D2 owners picking up a 7D as a second body vs. the opposite as a possible theory to explain the skew in the flickr stats and that theory was it's more likely that at this point in time, many more "enthusiasts" bought a 5D2 when it came out and did not add a 7D as a second body versus those that bought a 7D then also picked up a 5D2.

briansquibb

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2011, 01:18:12 PM »
If you're referring to my comment

No I wasn't - else I would have quoted your comment

I wouldn't accept that the 7D is 'far superior for sports action photography' over the 5DII. It has the edge on AF and fps - but not that much - as it then loses out on iso. From experience it is in wildlife where the 7D pulls away more.

I feel that reading something into Flickr stats would apply only to Flickr users. Not that many serious or pro togs using Flickr - they have their own websites. I bought a 5DII to go with my 50D and then added two 7D's - and I am not alone in this upgrade path - I added the 50D to go with my 5D. I know a lot people going from 40D to 7D and also having a ff - try polling the photoclubs, that is where they will be rather than on Flickr.

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Re: 5Diii vs 7Dii (FF vs APS-C)
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2011, 01:18:12 PM »