August 27, 2014, 11:02:22 AM

Author Topic: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?  (Read 4016 times)

Lawliet

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2014, 09:56:23 PM »
Am I the only person looking at the sensor dimensions and thinking "they get away with calling THAT medium format these days?... and people pay what?!"

Guess that depends on whether you look for the numbers or just for the best data you can get.
Most people who pay for dMF are in for the second reason.

EchoLocation

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2014, 10:38:02 PM »
I definitely don't see a MF camera system being made.
What I do see is an RX1 like medium format fixed lens camera.
The RX1 seems to have been a fairly successful product and is very highly regarded.
I believe that Sony will play off this success and possibly upgrade the RX1 to medium format for Photokina.
A $3799 MF 35mm or 50mm RX1 will steal the show! This camera sounds truly awesome and would not compete directly with the a7 or it's lenses.
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9VIII

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2014, 11:53:16 PM »
Am I the only person looking at the sensor dimensions and thinking "they get away with calling THAT medium format these days?... and people pay what?!"

Really, I'd just assumed "dMF" was worthwhile and comparable to MF (120/220). Are these figures for real?

I agree.

This shouldn't be called anything more than a FF+, it isn't even 2" wide. Not good enough.
While I don't think I'd ever want an 8x10, a digital 4x3" sounds just about right. Though they should probably design the lenses for a 5x4" sensor and then just use the largest sensors available (kind of like ten years ago).
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wockawocka

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2014, 04:50:18 AM »
It'll certainly be something "completely different" from other digital MF: it won't exist. Even though Sony appears to be trying the 'scatter gun' approach to camera systems I cannot believe they will want to develop a system that's in a segment of ever decreasing market share and something of a niche area now. They havent been able to make much inroads into the Nikon/Canon upper end of the DSLR market let alone MF.

I think this rumour's about as credible as the Canon MF one  - CR 0.

The only reason the Full Frame vs Crop sensor debate isn't a Medium Format vs Full Frame is because of accessibility.

If Canon were to release a Medium Format solution, complete with new lenses many would drop full frame like a stone. As someone who shoots a H4D50 I can tell you there's no comparison between the two.

It's not even about MP for me either, 18mp is fine. Just massive pixels, large sensor please.
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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2014, 04:52:54 AM »
Am I the only person looking at the sensor dimensions and thinking "they get away with calling THAT medium format these days?... and people pay what?!"

Really, I'd just assumed "dMF" was worthwhile and comparable to MF (120/220). Are these figures for real?

I agree.

This shouldn't be called anything more than a FF+, it isn't even 2" wide. Not good enough.
While I don't think I'd ever want an 8x10, a digital 4x3" sounds just about right. Though they should probably design the lenses for a 5x4" sensor and then just use the largest sensors available (kind of like ten years ago).

Leica uses a similar sized sensor in the S system and they call it "Pro Format",It's not a replacement for a Phase/Hasselblad FF sensor.

The rules of sensor size and resolving power are different between digital and film!FF digital like the D800e can out resolve 645 film,and on landscape magazine ran a great test that compares formats,the IQ180 can easily match 5x4 film ..  see this article.. http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/cameratest-2/800px.html

CarlTN

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2014, 05:15:52 AM »
I don't think this Hasselblad camera will sell well, because it only shoots 1.5 frames per second, and the rear screen is only 460,000 pixels...and only 3 inches...doesn't even swivel!  I mean, a Canon Rebel is better than this camera, and costs less too!  All this expense for only 8 bit TIFF files?  What gives??  :P  In another thread I'm chastised for saying I think Canon will eventually replace "full frame" with a medium format sensor about this size (perhaps within the next decade)...and their EF lenses will become this format's lenses...And yet in this thread we're talking about how viable and useful medium format is?  Why?  Because Sony makes the sensor, suddenly that has legitimized medium format?  I thought you all were saying medium format is dying??  Is this the twilight zone, or is it just wrong when I say it?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 05:20:37 AM by CarlTN »

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2014, 05:19:33 AM »
Quote
The rules of sensor size and resolving power are different between digital and film! FF digital like the D800e can out resolve 645 film,and on landscape magazine ran a great test that compares formats,the IQ180 can easily match 5x4 film

If you just rely on Resolution or resolving power you're maybe right. Just maybe, because a APS-C FoveOn outperforms a D800E eighter. But Medium Format has more advantages, as higher Pixelpitch (better colors, less noise), and technical advantages in Depth of Field or mostly central shutter (not MF related, but more in common).

But I must admit, they should finally build a *real* 645 Sensor, not a fake one like to Leica S2. Back in old days even the 645 Format was called MF-Crop, like today APS-C is a Fullformat-Crop  ::)
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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2014, 05:22:10 AM »
Quote
The rules of sensor size and resolving power are different between digital and film! FF digital like the D800e can out resolve 645 film,and on landscape magazine ran a great test that compares formats,the IQ180 can easily match 5x4 film

If you just rely on Resolution or resolving power you're maybe right. Just maybe, because a APS-C FoveOn outperforms a D800E eighter. But Medium Format has more advantages, as higher Pixelpitch (better colors, less noise), and technical advantages in Depth of Field or mostly central shutter (not MF related, but more in common).

But I must admit, they should finally build a *real* 645 Sensor, not a fake one like to Leica S2. Back in old days even the 645 Format was called MF-Crop, like today APS-C is a Fullformat-Crop  ::)

I'm fine with calling it medium format crop...

roby17269

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2014, 05:52:19 AM »
I keep hearing of these rumours of Sony and / or Canon getting into MF but I cannot see the point for them to do so.

It is a shrinking market, for various reason, and it would stay a niche market in the best of cases. Plus it would require a new lens mount and new lenses. AFAIK, in Canon land only TS lenses have a big enough image circle to cover a MF sensor. If I am wrong please let me know. But I think most FF lenses in any of the major mounts just barely cover a FF-sized sensor. And Sony has already what? 4 different lens lines. Would they add a 5th one for a niche market?

I use a 1D X for fashion photography. It is a wonderful camera in many aspects but I do miss more mp in many cases. I have rented a H5D and a PhaseOne a couple of times and I was completely blown away by the image quality (at ISO 100). The viewfinder is amazing. The colours are beautiful. The details insane.
But they are also big slow awkward bodies that make sense in controlled environments. AF and other functions are primitive. Battery life is short. No movies. No shadow recovery. No high ISO. Limited lens selection. Insane prices.
They make sense in fashion, product and perhaps landscape photography. Not for wildlife, sports, street and pretty much anything else.
Because I do fashion photography (hobby), I would get one if I could afford it (but the CCD version, not the new CMOS one - I'll take CCD colours any day)

So... unless they come up with something completely different from what current MF is, I see this only as pure rumour fodder  ::)
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Maui5150

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2014, 07:07:34 AM »
Sony developed the 36MP sensor that graces the D800/D800E, Nikon rebadged it, but it was a sony designed sensor.

Sony have recently dropped that sensor into one of their own cameras, the A7R, which seems to have done well, not on CR of course, but they have brought the Camera to Market, it's doing well even though Sony hamstrung the thing with poor support regards available lenses etc.

Sony designed the 50MP CMOS Sensor now in the phase One IQ250, and Haselblad 50MP systems, I imagine it's no stretch of anyones imagination to think Sony will do with the 50MP sensor what they have done with the 36MP sensor, i.e., drop it into a Sony DSLR.

I believe that will be a wonderful thing to do, the Camera may or may not be successful, but it should prompt both Nikon & Canon to lift their game.

Canon have to a large degree taken the "safe" path with their Camera systems since the introduction of the 5DMK II, yes the 1Dx is a wonderful camera and system but it's not exactly cutting edge sensor science by a long shot, it's incremental adjustments to a tried & true system.

Sony at least are pushing the envelope, that's got to be good for us, the consumers.

Reminds me of BetaMax - Superior quality, no movie titles... easily predicted death

Sony MF, no lenses?  History Repeats

vscd

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2014, 08:28:13 AM »
Quote
It is a shrinking market, for various reason, and it would stay a niche market in the best of cases. Plus it would require a new lens mount and new lenses.

There are already 3 EOS-Mounts out there (EF,EF-S,EF-M), so why should a EOS-L bother? In Mediumformat, normally, you don't need the whole bunch of different lenses (no one really does in APS-C eighter). A good 40mm (24mm KB Equiv), a 75mm (ca. 42mm) and a 150mm Portrait. What else do we need? If the Cam would have T/S possibilities, you can even get those with every focallength. And furthermore you just need a Converter to a major brand bayonett (mamiya, pentax or hasselblad) to get alle the old glass to work.

If it will ever happen, they will start with a build in fixed lense like the RX1. I would like to see a (smaller) Canon 1DXs with fixed 75mm 2.0 ;)




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roby17269

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2014, 08:37:11 AM »

There are already 3 EOS-Mounts out there (EF,EF-S,EF-M), so why should a EOS-L bother? In Mediumformat, normally, you don't need the whole bunch of different lenses (no one really does in APS-C eighter). A good 40mm (24mm KB Equiv), a 75mm (ca. 42mm) and a 150mm Portrait. What else do we need? If the Cam would have T/S possibilities, you can even get those with every focallength. And furthermore you just need a Converter to a major brand bayonett (mamiya, pentax or hasselblad) to get alle the old glass to work.

If it will ever happen, they will start with a build in fixed lense like the RX1. I would like to see a (smaller) Canon 1DXs with fixed 75mm 2.0 ;)

Don't get me wrong, I am not against, at all  ;D

But I just cannot see it happen. And how long did it take Canon to come up with a very limited set of M lenses? and mirrorless is supposed to be mass-market compared to MF...
I do agree that MF systems don't need a lot of lenses (although whether it's a cause or a consequence of MF's limitations...)
But I do also think that Canon right now would be better served to invest more in their current lines rather than in a new one. And I disagree on EF-S: I think saying that crop users should be fine because of all the FF lenses out there is doing them a disservice.

Having said that, I'd love to be surprised... in my lifetime  ::)
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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2014, 08:44:38 AM »
Am I the only person looking at the sensor dimensions and thinking "they get away with calling THAT medium format these days?... and people pay what?!"

Really, I'd just assumed "dMF" was worthwhile and comparable to MF (120/220). Are these figures for real?

I agree.

This shouldn't be called anything more than a FF+, it isn't even 2" wide. Not good enough.
While I don't think I'd ever want an 8x10, a digital 4x3" sounds just about right. Though they should probably design the lenses for a 5x4" sensor and then just use the largest sensors available (kind of like ten years ago).

Leica uses a similar sized sensor in the S system and they call it "Pro Format",It's not a replacement for a Phase/Hasselblad FF sensor.

The rules of sensor size and resolving power are different between digital and film!FF digital like the D800e can out resolve 645 film,and on landscape magazine ran a great test that compares formats,the IQ180 can easily match 5x4 film ..  see this article.. http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/cameratest-2/800px.html

Oh, I'm actually thinking Physics here... I can show people photographs of my MF negs on my iPod screen and say "that's about actual size of the negatives, I've just inverted the colours" - and it's true, for anyone wondering what the standard SMALLEST MF frame's size is... That's 4.5 x 6cm, though 6 x 6 is the square standard, and 6 x 9cm or 6 x ~12cm for mechanical/panoramic negs... anything smaller than my 4.5 x 6cm sounds kinda' silly and unnecessary to me when we've got 35mm films and equivalent sensors knocking about, relatively for peanuts.

I'm by no means a clueless amateur, I'd just assumed digital Medium Format was a real luxury that was currently financially out of my reach - I've shot (still do for wildlife) APSc, moved to full frame and personal preference has me shooting sharp, fast primes... I appreciate the physics and look at APSc/FF as crops/expansions of the same projected image, DoF and all (hence my thread on the possibility of low MP, low light
APSc sensor shooters that all went a bit silly) ...

So I'm genuinely shocked that in my ignorance I believed there was a proper step up in sensor real estate to be lusted after, alas, er... this.

Also, "proper" MF lenses are relatively massive for SLR models' flange distance - and as such, primes are around f/2.8 max, if they don't push much beyond this for these tiny crops it really seems to me they're just playing with people's fad-lusting and I'm much happier saving a few dozen grand and shooting 35mm at ~f/1.4 and slapping some 120 in the back of my Bronica for kicks!

dMF, eh? I'll put that in the pile of not-for-mes with m43...

Though if I get rich quick, I might give that "cheap" Pentax a go ;)

So no, I wasn't even stepping into IQ territory, just mere "Composition Quality", how naive of me ;)

Bonus thoughts: asides from mass-production set-up costs, what would reeeally be the financial and practical restrictions of seamlessly sticking 2x 6D sensors worth of pixels next to eachother to create a 36 x 48cm or similar sensor? Yeah, I went there...
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Lawliet

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2014, 10:54:30 AM »
So I'm genuinely shocked that in my ignorance I believed there was a proper step up in sensor real estate to be lusted after, alas, er... this.

You always could go for backs like the IQx60/IQx80 or some of the newer HBlads - those have sensors that are roughly  the size of the usable area of 6x4,5.
But then there is more then raw sensor size, like design goals or the lenses. A bit of extra resolution, but mostly the lenses and the leaf shutter for me.

9VIII

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Re: Off Brand: Sony Readying Branded Medium Format System?
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2014, 11:45:18 AM »
Bonus thoughts: asides from mass-production set-up costs, what would reeeally be the financial and practical restrictions of seamlessly sticking 2x 6D sensors worth of pixels next to eachother to create a 36 x 48cm or similar sensor? Yeah, I went there...

That was one thought I had as well.
If MF digital sensors are prohibitively expensive (if not impossible) to make because of yields, maybe they could stick four 35mm sensors together and get something that's nearly 3x2". They would have to do a fantastic job sticking it together, but it's possible that there's no way around it (yields of MF sensors will never be high enough).
For that matter that's probably how they arrived at the current size being implemented: How big can your sensor be without throwing out more than 50% of the wafers?
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