September 21, 2014, 04:35:53 PM

Author Topic: How to Annoy a Photography Snob  (Read 14387 times)

CarlTN

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #75 on: April 12, 2014, 03:57:25 AM »
Anybody struggling with the Rockwell link should watch a Zefrank video or two on YouTube. True Facts About The Armadillo
how did we get here again?
I was thinking the same thing ... maybe people are only reading the words "photography snob" from the title, and they immediately think of Ken ;D

We're all photography snobs, jaded on some level, are we not?

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #75 on: April 12, 2014, 03:57:25 AM »

sagittariansrock

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #76 on: April 12, 2014, 04:58:23 AM »
Anybody struggling with the Rockwell link should watch a Zefrank video or two on YouTube. True Facts About The Armadillo
how did we get here again?
I was thinking the same thing ... maybe people are only reading the words "photography snob" from the title, and they immediately think of Ken ;D

We're all photography snobs, jaded on some level, are we not?

Yes we are, and I think snobbishness exhibits a skewed bell-shaped distribution with knowledge.
If you know very little, you're not a snob.
As you get to know more, but far less than enough, you develop more and more snobbishness.
You think all you know is correct- and everything else is wrong.
However, once you know a lot, you cross the peak of snobbishness, and you go into enlightenment.
And then on it's all downhill in terms of snobbishness.

Along that scale, my knowledge and snobbishness are both early on the upward slope (fortunately only in terms of photography knowledge, not in my chosen profession, but I have spent a much longer time in that).
Still long way to go here though...  :(
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CarlTN

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #77 on: April 16, 2014, 02:09:22 AM »
Anybody struggling with the Rockwell link should watch a Zefrank video or two on YouTube. True Facts About The Armadillo
how did we get here again?
I was thinking the same thing ... maybe people are only reading the words "photography snob" from the title, and they immediately think of Ken ;D

We're all photography snobs, jaded on some level, are we not?

Yes we are, and I think snobbishness exhibits a skewed bell-shaped distribution with knowledge.
If you know very little, you're not a snob.
As you get to know more, but far less than enough, you develop more and more snobbishness.
You think all you know is correct- and everything else is wrong.
However, once you know a lot, you cross the peak of snobbishness, and you go into enlightenment.
And then on it's all downhill in terms of snobbishness.

Along that scale, my knowledge and snobbishness are both early on the upward slope (fortunately only in terms of photography knowledge, not in my chosen profession, but I have spent a much longer time in that).
Still long way to go here though...  :(

Excellent observation, but if it were true, it would mean the most knowledgeable people are not snobs, and they clearly are.

Rienzphotoz

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #78 on: April 16, 2014, 08:29:23 AM »
Anybody struggling with the Rockwell link should watch a Zefrank video or two on YouTube. True Facts About The Armadillo
how did we get here again?
I was thinking the same thing ... maybe people are only reading the words "photography snob" from the title, and they immediately think of Ken ;D

We're all photography snobs, jaded on some level, are we not?
If we are honest with ourselves, yes we are all snobs ... it does not have to be only photography, it could be anything ... everyone is prejudiced about something or another ... so yes, we are snobs at some level.
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AcutancePhotography

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #79 on: April 16, 2014, 10:28:26 AM »
If we are honest with ourselves, yes we are all snobs ... it does not have to be only photography, it could be anything ... everyone is prejudiced about something or another ... so yes, we are snobs at some level.

Not sure I agree with this sweeping generalization.

I am only a snob when I look down on or denegrate people who do not share my opinions.  If I happen to like something but I am accepting of others not liking it, I don't think I am a snob.
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Don Haines

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2014, 12:35:55 PM »
Anybody struggling with the Rockwell link should watch a Zefrank video or two on YouTube. True Facts About The Armadillo
how did we get here again?
I was thinking the same thing ... maybe people are only reading the words "photography snob" from the title, and they immediately think of Ken ;D

We're all photography snobs, jaded on some level, are we not?

Yes we are, and I think snobbishness exhibits a skewed bell-shaped distribution with knowledge.
If you know very little, you're not a snob.
As you get to know more, but far less than enough, you develop more and more snobbishness.
You think all you know is correct- and everything else is wrong.
However, once you know a lot, you cross the peak of snobbishness, and you go into enlightenment.
And then on it's all downhill in terms of snobbishness.

Along that scale, my knowledge and snobbishness are both early on the upward slope (fortunately only in terms of photography knowledge, not in my chosen profession, but I have spent a much longer time in that).
Still long way to go here though...  :(

Excellent observation, but if it were true, it would mean the most knowledgeable people are not snobs, and they clearly are.
Or possibly none of us know enough to be truly enlightened :)

Personally, I don't think you can connect knowledge and snobbishness. I know several very knowledgeable photographers, some are arrogant snobs and some are humble and helpfull... and some are a mix. I also know some very poor photographers who have an inflated opinion of themselves.
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CarlTN

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2014, 09:45:47 PM »
Anybody struggling with the Rockwell link should watch a Zefrank video or two on YouTube. True Facts About The Armadillo
how did we get here again?
I was thinking the same thing ... maybe people are only reading the words "photography snob" from the title, and they immediately think of Ken ;D

We're all photography snobs, jaded on some level, are we not?

Yes we are, and I think snobbishness exhibits a skewed bell-shaped distribution with knowledge.
If you know very little, you're not a snob.
As you get to know more, but far less than enough, you develop more and more snobbishness.
You think all you know is correct- and everything else is wrong.
However, once you know a lot, you cross the peak of snobbishness, and you go into enlightenment.
And then on it's all downhill in terms of snobbishness.

Along that scale, my knowledge and snobbishness are both early on the upward slope (fortunately only in terms of photography knowledge, not in my chosen profession, but I have spent a much longer time in that).
Still long way to go here though...  :(

Excellent observation, but if it were true, it would mean the most knowledgeable people are not snobs, and they clearly are.
Or possibly none of us know enough to be truly enlightened :)

Personally, I don't think you can connect knowledge and snobbishness. I know several very knowledgeable photographers, some are arrogant snobs and some are humble and helpfull... and some are a mix. I also know some very poor photographers who have an inflated opinion of themselves.

I suppose you are right, but it does seem like the more knowledgeable posters in this forum, have a bit of snobbery going on.  Their outlook is fairly rigid. 

I don't know any very poor photographers with inflated self opinions.  In fact I don't know any poor photographers at all.  Many of the decent or very good photographers (or professionals), that I know, or have met...Either have extremely high opinions of their work, or of themselves.  This seems especially true of pro's who give seminars, or photo tours.  They state things matter-of-factly, when it's really just their own way of doing things...not recognizing there are other equally good ways of accomplishing the same task.  (For instance the guy who gave a lecture at a photo club meeting I attended, who said he always shoots with a tripod and a polarizer filter, because "you can't get sharp pictures any other way".  That attitude is a hold over from the film days.)  I admit I've not met dozens of lecturers or photo education professionals yet, but of the ones I've met and known...this seems to be the case.  It's their way, or the highway.

Let's face it.  Anyone who spends time and effort on something (whether they're a pro or not), and is happy with the results, would rarely admit there might be the tiniest thing wrong with their approach (or with some virtue they hold to be true)...or attitude.  And as for photo equipment, it's like every other endeavor, or hobby...or cars, planes, boats, houses.  People like, and defend from criticism, what they own. 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 09:48:21 PM by CarlTN »

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2014, 09:45:47 PM »

jrista

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #82 on: April 16, 2014, 10:42:26 PM »
Another way to look at things, instead of thinking about a "matter-of-fact" way of delivering knowledge, is to look at an instructional pro as someone who does indeed have a lot of experience, garnered over a very long period of time, who has done and tried a LOT of ways of doing things, and has a very firm grasp of what works and what does not.

Here is an example. I love Art Morris' bird photography. The insight and knowledge he FREELY disseminates on his blog and on some bird photography forums is utterly invaluable. His delivery method is blunt, directly to the point, matter of fact, and often somewhat shocking or startling in it's delivery. However, I don't complain about that. The guy has been doing bird photography for longer than I've been alive. He KNOWS what he is doing, he KNOWS his stuff, and every time I listen to what he has to say...regardless of his method of delivery...I learn something, something invaluable, something that improves my skill and changes my photography.

If all you ever do is look at the method of delivery, you miss what's being delivered. I think Art Morris could be a little less blunt in the way he delivers his insight, but I honestly don't care that he's blunt and direct...THE GUY KNOWS HIS S___!!! The fact that he freely shares his knowledge is amazing, and I'm a better photographer for it. If/when I scrounge up the $12,000 or so for one of his IPTs, I'm going, I have no doubt in my mind that it would be some of the best $12,000 I'll ever spend. And to be quite frank, I would rather have someone shut me down when my own thought processes are going down the wrong path, and correct my understanding of a concept or theory immediately, than allow me to continue thinking about something incorrectly. By allowing me to keep my own incorrectly formed opinion, they aren't doing me any good, and rather could be doing me a disservice. You learn from your mistakes, no? Well, you have to know what your mistakes are first, before you can learn from them.

Sometimes what may seem like arrogance may simply be the consequence of having a great depth of knowledge. It isn't arrogance or rigidness and a lack of willingness to change one's opinions. It's a confidence that one's opinions are most probably right, a confidence backed up by years or even decades of extensive first-hand experience, and justification to put the burden on the other guy to prove them wrong. Granted, there are exceptions to the rule, but those exceptions usually tend to out themselves quick enough, with either too much arrogance or not enough knowledge...ignore the exceptions, listen to the experts.

As much as I think I may know something, if it's Morris or Murphy or any number of other highly seasoned bird photographers, or Andy Rouse or other world-renown wildlife photographers, or one of the juggernauts of astrophotography like Robert Gendler or Russel Croman, I bury my own opinions, shut the hell up, and let them teach me. ;-) As a small example, I thought I understood exposure. Then I bought and read Art Morris' book "The Art of Bird Photography", and learned not only that I knew nothing about exposure...but I also LEARNED about exposure!

Anyway...thought that needed to be said, in general, for anyone who would listen. ;)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 12:58:01 AM by jrista »
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philmoz

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #83 on: April 16, 2014, 11:57:42 PM »
Frankly your response is needlessly wordy and condescending, and misses the point entirely.  But that’s par for the course for you.

Hmm - pot --> kettle --> black.

Can't speak for anyone else; but I would much rather read an informed and informative post from jrista, than a whiny, derogatory and offensive post from you.

sagittariansrock

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2014, 12:20:48 AM »
Tisk tisk, such hostility...I suppose I am not entitled to relate the anecdote I related, without being talked down to for it.

 ???
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jrista

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2014, 12:54:37 AM »
Just to be clear, my last post was generalistic, not to anyone in particular (if it was I would have explicitly addressed it.) Just offering a different point of view about professional photographers and their mannerisms.

Oh, also, my last post was not about me in any way. I am no pro, at best an avid hobbyist. I am simply trying to give credit to highly skilled pros who both freely offer their knowledge, and those who offer the opportunity of on site, interactive, personal instruction. I don't think it is fair to lump pros into a stereotype of arrogant, stuck up, condescending jackasses who only like to belittle and shame "lesser" photographers.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 01:06:52 AM by jrista »
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sagittariansrock

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2014, 01:06:52 AM »
Just to be clear, my last post was generalistic, not to anyone in particular (if it was I would have explicitly adressed it.) Just offering a different point of view about professional photographers and their mannerisms.

I felt that was fairly clear already. I was rather surprised by the post above.
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CarlTN

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2014, 01:17:23 AM »
Well, since it was "purely coincidence" and not directed at me, I will be happy to delete it myself.  One thing is certain, it's not difficult to annoy a photography snob!
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 01:33:55 AM by CarlTN »

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2014, 01:17:23 AM »

brad-man

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #88 on: April 17, 2014, 07:01:33 PM »
At the risk of being flamed, I feel that the many photographers around here that proclaim IS to be of no use on lenses wider than 85mm are being snobs. It's as if they are saying, "My technique is such that I would derive no benefit from it and if you feel the need for it, well you just suck."  OK, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get my point.

sagittariansrock

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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #89 on: April 17, 2014, 07:43:50 PM »
At the risk of being flamed, I feel that the many photographers around here that proclaim IS to be of no use on lenses wider than 85mm are being snobs. It's as if they are saying, "My technique is such that I would derive no benefit from it and if you feel the need for it, well you just suck."  OK, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get my point.

I used to think the same way as you- the pros who suggest IS isn't important at wider FLs are snobs.
But let's dig deeper- there is SOME truth to it, as I have realized with time. Not all true, mind, because I still think IS is important.
However, I think IS gives a false sense of confidence to inexperienced photographers. They feel they can shoot a photo at 1/17 just because they are shooting with a 35mm lens with IS. But they don't understand the limitation of shutter speed vs subject movement.
Pros point at the fact that you realistically cannot shoot lower than 1/n (put your favorite number here) unless you want motion blur or you are shooting still life.
Now, for longer focal lengths, n is a larger number:
Consequently 1/n is higher, and 1/n divided by factor of image stabilization still remains high. So motion blur is avoided.

Now, less knowledgeable people have taken this maxim, misunderstood it, and propagated it at face value- that IS is unimportant. I think it is just a misrepresentation and generalization of otherwise sound logic.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 07:46:48 PM by sagittariansrock »
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Re: How to Annoy a Photography Snob
« Reply #89 on: April 17, 2014, 07:43:50 PM »