January 16, 2018, 05:50:51 PM

Author Topic: The Bride chose my images instead of the photographer, how much should I charge?  (Read 67873 times)

chriswolf

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Hi everyone,

About a month ago I contacted a photographer because I wanted to get into the wedding business.
He accepted my request and he took me with him to a wedding, now:

The Bride called my up a week ago telling me that she didn't like the photographer images and she asked to have a look at my photographs instead.

I set up a gallery for her and she contacted my back very excited and happy about my work, making me so happy as well.

Photographers say that you have to know your client to work out a price, well I don't know how much their budget was but they hired a Limousine and a Cadillac for their wedding, this is what I've seen.

How much do you think should I charge them for about 30-40 photos, retouching and the time spend at the wedding?

I was thinking between $500 - $600 (Australia)

Thank you

(By the way I didn't get paid by the photographer and he didn't tell me the client tried to get in contact with me)
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Old Sarge

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I haven't made a living by photography in a very long time (I find more joy in being a hobby shooter) but it seems to me that you were present at the wedding as a guest of the contracted photographer for a learning experience.  I sense an ethical dilemma in "poaching" sales even though the bride preferred your shots.  In fact, I would have turned down her request to view them.  If you had been a guest of the bride or groom at the wedding then I wouldn't see the same problem.
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Don Haines

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I haven't made a living by photography in a very long time (I find more joy in being a hobby shooter) but it seems to me that you were present at the wedding as a guest of the contracted photographer for a learning experience.  I sense an ethical dilemma in "poaching" sales even though the bride preferred your shots.  In fact, I would have turned down her request to view them.  If you had been a guest of the bride or groom at the wedding then I wouldn't see the same problem.

I agree. This is an ethics problem.

You are going to have to chalk this up to being a learning experience... if you are doing a job, find out what your responsibilities are beforehand and who your images belong to....

There are two big questions here that will decide your actions:

1) Do the images that you shot belong to you, or do they belong to the event photographer?
2) Will you be taking money away from the event photographer? Should you be sharing the revenue from any extra work with them, and in what proportion?

In the end... the bride MUST get the pictures, regardless of who she has to pay or even if it is free. The last thing you want is to have your name attached to an angry bride who has been denied pictures of her wedding day. This will create a situation that can destroy any good will and reputation that you are trying to build... even if you have to give them away for free, chalk it up to good marketing....
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neuroanatomist

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You are going to have to chalk this up to being a learning experience... if you are doing a job, find out what your responsibilities are beforehand and who your images belong to....

+1

This is something that should have been discussed with the paid wedding photographer before you came wth him to the event (to which you were not otherwise invited) with your camera...
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mm

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I'm going to use short-hand here . . .

In Toronto, Canada, a second-shooter's images 'belong' to the hired photog.  Even if a guest has persuaded the bride and groom to let them 'shoot' the wedding (not my favourite, but it is their day, not mine), the photos of the 'guest second-shooter' 'belong' to the photog as well.

In this case, the images should be turned over to the primary photog for sale and you get to use the photos in you portfolio.

privatebydesign

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If I was you I'd contact the photographer, immediately, beg their forgiveness and indulgence and explain that your actions just evolved without you realising the potential consequences. I'd then get his/her input on how they would like the situation handled.

Why behave like that?

You asked for a big favour, you have repaid that by going behind the photographers back, you needed them, they did not need you. They are the professionals and are, presumably, licensed, registered and insured, you, presumably, are not. They have a reputation (however flawed) after all they did get the job in the first place, and you are creating yours and this is no way to do it. They might not have done a particularly good job, but your business practices are horrific.

As for money, absolutely forget it. If you are very lucky you will walk away from this experience with a zero balance, and a toe hold in the door to your chosen career. If you were my second shooter I would sue you, but then my contract with you would allow that.

And everything MM said.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 09:22:48 AM by privatebydesign »
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

tron

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I'm going to use short-hand here . . .

In Toronto, Canada, a second-shooter's images 'belong' to the hired photog.  Even if a guest has persuaded the bride and groom to let them 'shoot' the wedding (not my favourite, but it is their day, not mine), the photos of the 'guest second-shooter' 'belong' to the photog as well.

In this case, the images should be turned over to the primary photog for sale and you get to use the photos in you portfolio.
It seems exploitation to me. If the guest has permission from the bride and groom I cannot believe that there is a law that forces him to give his photos to the pro. It isn't as if the pro has hired him.

On the other hand, there is an ethical issue for the specific case as it was presented by the OP.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 09:22:36 AM by tron »

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privatebydesign

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I'm going to use short-hand here . . .

In Toronto, Canada, a second-shooter's images 'belong' to the hired photog.  Even if a guest has persuaded the bride and groom to let them 'shoot' the wedding (not my favourite, but it is their day, not mine), the photos of the 'guest second-shooter' 'belong' to the photog as well.

In this case, the images should be turned over to the primary photog for sale and you get to use the photos in you portfolio.
It seems exploitation to me. If the guest has permission from the bride and groom I cannot believe that there is a law that forces him to give his photos to the pro. It isn't as if the pro has hired him.

On the other hand, there is an ethical issue for the specific case as it was presented by the OP.

If you are a guest that is one thing, you are a guest. If you are there as a photographer, paid or not, all deference must be given to the person contracted to shoot the wedding. Any decent wedding photographers contract will cover the basics of who is working for whom and what responsibilities everybody has.

But before we go off track, the OP was at the wedding because of the photographer, not as a guest, and did not know the bride and groom.
Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

tron

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I'm going to use short-hand here . . .

In Toronto, Canada, a second-shooter's images 'belong' to the hired photog.  Even if a guest has persuaded the bride and groom to let them 'shoot' the wedding (not my favourite, but it is their day, not mine), the photos of the 'guest second-shooter' 'belong' to the photog as well.

In this case, the images should be turned over to the primary photog for sale and you get to use the photos in you portfolio.
It seems exploitation to me. If the guest has permission from the bride and groom I cannot believe that there is a law that forces him to give his photos to the pro. It isn't as if the pro has hired him.

On the other hand, there is an ethical issue for the specific case as it was presented by the OP.

If you are a guest that is one thing, you are a guest. If you are there as a photographer, paid or not, all deference must be given to the person contracted to shoot the wedding. Any decent wedding photographers contract will cover the basics of who is working for whom and what responsibilities everybody has.

But before we go off track, the OP was at the wedding because of the photographer, not as a guest, and did not know the bride and groom.
I agree. My main comment was on the previous post only that's why I added that there is an issue with the case as presented by the OP.

tolusina

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Hmm, reputations at stake here, most specifically yours as you are just starting out, tread carefully.
 
I'd suggest you get the hired pro involved as middleman. (S)he has gotten paid to deliver, you were there as the pro's guest. Pass your photos to that pro, let the pro pass them to the bride.
Hopefully, the pro will do the honorable thing and compensate you appropriately, certainly there's a possibility they'll offer only a pittance or nothing.
Take whatever is offered, write it up as experience, experience is why you were there, right?
You should at least end up with the bride as a reference, the pro should have naught to criticize.
 
 
 
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Sporgon

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I'm just wondering how the bride was able to get in touch with the OP.............. ???

Don Haines

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If I was you I'd contact the photographer, immediately, beg their forgiveness and indulgence and explain that your actions just evolved without you realising the potential consequences. I'd then get his/her input on how they would like the situation handled.

Why behave like that?

You asked for a big favour, you have repaid that by going behind the photographers back, you needed them, they did not need you. They are the professionals and are, presumably, licensed, registered and insured, you, presumably, are not. They have a reputation (however flawed) after all they did get the job in the first place, and you are creating yours and this is no way to do it. They might not have done a particularly good job, but your business practices are horrific.

As for money, absolutely forget it. If you are very lucky you will walk away from this experience with a zero balance, and a toe hold in the door to your chosen career. If you were my second shooter I would sue you, but then my contract with you would allow that.

And everything MM said.

+1

My suspicion is that the images belong to the prime shooter... even though you are not paid in money, you were brought in by that person and working for them... paid with experience, not money.  If you sell the images, you are robbing them.

So much depends on the contract.... my suspicion is that there is a flat rate fee to cover the event and a set number of photos, and then additional fees for additional work. The fees for that additional work, even if it is done by you on the photos that you took, are set by the bride and main shooter and the money goes to the main shooter.

Ego is very likely at play here too.... It is very hard to admit that someone else, particularly a "newbie" has taken pictures that the bride likes better and it is very likely that they do not want to give the bride your pictures..... but this a battle that the bride has to win.... she has to demand to get your pictures..... she is the one paying the bills!

This can turn out nasty. Talk to the main shooter... give them a way out so everyone does not end up suing everyone else... let them print the pictures with no photo credit for you... appologize to them for the situation and ask them what they want you to do to make things right....

In the end, if all works out well, the bride gets the pictures she wanted, the main shooter gets paid, and you have given your work to the bride for free... yet the main shooter gets paid for them... and you got a lot of experience with the business side of photography....

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RLPhoto

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I'm just wondering how the bride was able to get in touch with the OP.............. ???

I was wondering the same thing.

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mackguyver

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I'll join the chorus here and add that the wedding community is typically very small when it comes to the wedding planners, DJs, photographers, venues, and such, so this could be your first & last sale if you choose to go behind the photographer's back.  While they all compete with each other, they also stick together to protect each other.  If word gets out, as it will with social media these days, all of those people will take it upon themselves to steer their clientele away from you. 

If I were you, I would come clean and contact the photographer who was kind enough to let you tag along and explain what's happened so far.  Apologize and explain that you realize what a huge mistake you've made and ask him what he wants to do about it.  Assuming he is okay with you selling the photos, I would expect to split the sale at least 50/50 as he did the majority of the work in terms of marketing to and securing the client, planning the shoot, etc. and was kind enough to let you work with him. 

On the other hand, if you want some quick cash, make the sale.  Just don't expect to shoot any more weddings or have any photographers help you out again.
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Kerry B

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Surely the contract is with the original pro photographer, his price would have included the shoot as well as providing a specific number of images with any additional photographs charged for separately. I would find it hard to believe there are no images that the bride would not find acceptable.
The bride should pay the original photographer for the contracted work, providing of course they are not sub standard.  There would be no obligation for the bride to buy any additional images from the pro photographer leaving the guest photographer to supply photos to the bride at whatever cost is agreed.
Remember you asked for a favour and got invited to assist the pro at the wedding, he thought he was helping you. Never look a gift horse in the mouth.
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