November 21, 2014, 10:17:10 PM

Author Topic: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?  (Read 12068 times)

Orangutan

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2014, 09:59:53 AM »
Depends on how you define "future."   ;)   Canon has told us the future is video camera with a small, ultrahigh resolution sensor, a big zoom lens, phenomenal image stabilization, and frame grabs for still images.  Of course, as a video camera it fits your definition of mirrorless…

Quote
"Mirrorless" is generally taken as a shorthand descriptor for the class of cameras known as MILCs, compact system cameras, etc.  If you're going to use a term in a way that differs from convention, it's helpful to provide your definition at the outset.

Both reasonable points.  Not only does tech evolve, but markets evolve as well.  Yes, I was fuzzy with my definition, but that's because futurists have a habit of predicting a better version of what we have right now, rather than something we didn't know we would prefer.  Sure, MILC dominance may be a little further away, but there's a lot of variation and selection that will occur in the next few years, and we may find that the MILC we thought we wanted looks retro-futuristic compared to what becomes available, like a video camera with frame grab.  My general point stands: it's in Canon's interest to stay in the M-market, even at break-even or loss, to make sure they're ready for the evolution of both tech and market demands.

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2014, 09:59:53 AM »

Orangutan

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2014, 10:02:48 AM »
The EOS-M was the best that Canon, with all its superior resources and technology, could come up with.

Nope, it was the best they chose to put on the market.  We have no idea what their technical limits are.  I'm at a loss to understand why people think that companies always put their best product on the market.   This is certainly not true, especially for a company in Canon's strong position.  No way, no how.



Sella174

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2014, 10:05:19 AM »
Canon seems to have made a limited investment in mirrorless, to date.  Still, in Japan – one of the largest mirrorless markets – the EOS M outsold every MILC model from Fuji, Olympus, and Panasonic for 2013.

So what's your point? Have you ever thought that Europeans/USA/Canadians might prefer the "SLR"-style of camera (with integrated OVF/EVF) over the GF, E-P and EOS-M type of cameras, which explains why these [latter] cameras have not sold well in Europe, the USA and Canada? That it might be cultural thing, huh?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 10:14:22 AM by Sella174 »
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Sella174

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2014, 10:13:28 AM »
The EOS-M was the best that Canon, with all its superior resources and technology, could come up with.

Nope, it was the best they chose to put on the market.  We have no idea what their technical limits are.  I'm at a loss to understand why people think that companies always put their best product on the market.   This is certainly not true, especially for a company in Canon's strong position.  No way, no how.

Canon may be strong in certain markets, like DSLR's. But in the mirrorless market they are sorrily outclassed by "lesser" companies like Olympus, Panasonic and now FUJIFILM.

So, with mirrorless (in whichever form) being the future, and Canon being heavily behind in this segment, they have, IMO, just one more chance to equal the field and that is to make the upcoming EOS-M3 the best camera that they can possible make it. This is do or die time ... and damn the [..] Business School.
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Orangutan

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2014, 10:16:41 AM »
Canon may be strong in certain markets, like DSLR's. But in the mirrorless market they are sorrily outclassed by "lesser" companies like Olympus, Panasonic and now FUJIFILM.

Outclassed in what sense: sales, or a product that you want to buy at a price you can afford?  As Neuro said above, they seem to be doing just fine in sales.  Canon is a for-profit company, not a patron of the arts.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2014, 10:23:03 AM »
Problem with that kind of corporate financial theoretical thinking is that it only works if you (i.e. Canon) are the only game in town. Canon isn't and everyone who wants decent mirrorless right now are switching systems to other manufacturers, i.e. Canon is losing customers.

Problem with that kind of individual consumer theoretical thinking is that it only works if you (i.e. the comsumer) are the only game in town.  You're not, and while Canon may be losing customers 'who want decent mirrorless right now', they're also gaining customers who are upgrading from a P&S and finding dSLRs to be more popular, customers who want better IQ than smaller-sensor mirrorless bodies can deliver, better performance on certain metrics, etc. 

For interchangeable lens cameras, those with reflex mirrors are outselling those without mirrors by over 4:1.  Considering all digital cameras (P&S, dSLR, and mirrorless), mirrorless cameras account for 10% of the 2013 revenue, dSLRs account for 48% of the 2013 revenue, with fixed lens cameras making up the balance of 42%  (CIPA stats). 

So, the customers Canon is 'losing' come from a segment of the market that accounts for less than 10% of camera revenues.   


Canon seems to have made a limited investment in mirrorless, to date.  Still, in Japan – one of the largest mirrorless markets – the EOS M outsold every MILC model from Fuji, Olympus, and Panasonic for 2013.

So what's your point? Have you ever thought that Europeans/USA/Canadians might prefer the "SLR"-style of camera (with integrated OVF/EVF) over the GF, E-P and EOS-M type of cameras, which explains why these [latter] cameras have not sold well in Europe, the USA and Canada? That it might be cultural thing, huh?

You refer to the EOS M as, "...the best that Canon, with all its superior resources and technology, could come up with," and state that Canon is 'outclassed' by Fuji, Olympus, and Panasonic.  My point is that in a geography where mirrorless cameras are popular, Canon beat Fuji, Olympus, and Panasonic in sales, and did so with their very first entry into the mirrorless market. 
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Sella174

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2014, 10:24:11 AM »
Canon may be strong in certain markets, like DSLR's. But in the mirrorless market they are sorrily outclassed by "lesser" companies like Olympus, Panasonic and now FUJIFILM.

Outclassed in what sense: sales, or a product that you want to buy at a price you can afford?  As Neuro said above, they seem to be doing just fine in sales.  Canon is a for-profit company, not a patron of the arts.

Big in Japan, huh? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_in_Japan_%28phrase%29)
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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2014, 10:24:11 AM »

bseitz234

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2014, 10:24:33 AM »
Canon seems to have made a limited investment in mirrorless, to date.  Still, in Japan – one of the largest mirrorless markets – the EOS M outsold every MILC model from Fuji, Olympus, and Panasonic for 2013.

So what's your point? Have you ever thought that Europeans/USA/Canadians might prefer the "SLR"-style of camera (with integrated OVF/EVF) over the GF, E-P and EOS-M type of cameras, which explains why these [latter] cameras have not sold well in Europe, the USA and Canada? That it might be cultural thing, huh?

This is a serious question, I know it sounds snarky, but I can't figure out how to rephrase it, so here goes....

what is your point? Where's Canon's incentive to do better in the MILC markets in Europe/North America, if consumers are going to go to DSLRs for form factor anyway? If it's a tiny market, of course they're not going to spend a lot of money on it- there's not much to be gained. And where there is money to be made (Japan), apparently they're doing well already, so again, they have no incentive to release a better camera...

(I say apparently because my only source is what Neuro says, I haven't actually looked for sales figures, and Neuro could be making up numbers and I'd have no idea.  ::) ) Not saying he is, just that I'd be none the wiser if he did.
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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2014, 10:25:51 AM »
Actually, I was cheering about every new camera from Olympus and FUJIFILM that sold like hotcakes covered with chocolate syrup ... 'cause those successes led to these respective companies finally making a camera (and companion lenses) as I want it. On the flipside, every successful "Rebel" made kept Canon in the past and it finally lost them (Canon) at least one big-mouthed, opinionated user/customer who no longer recommends their products to others.  :D

Oh, please. Fuji's new (X-T1) horrible non-bayer detail-smearing-sensor (even in RAW) is the least impressive cake of all.
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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2014, 10:26:37 AM »
My general point stands: it's in Canon's interest to stay in the M-market, even at break-even or loss, to make sure they're ready for the evolution of both tech and market demands.

I think the development of dual pixel AF technology, a technology with such obvious applications in the mirrorless camera space, is solid evidence that Canon is ready for the market to move in that direction.
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Sella174

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2014, 10:38:23 AM »
Problem with that kind of individual consumer theoretical thinking is that it only works if you (i.e. the comsumer) are the only game in town.  You're not, and while Canon may be losing customers 'who want decent mirrorless right now', they're also gaining customers who are upgrading from a P&S and finding dSLRs to be more popular, customers who want better IQ than smaller-sensor mirrorless bodies can deliver, better performance on certain metrics, etc. 

"Full-frame" is everything, right? But what about the Sony A7/A7S then, huh?

What metrics?

For interchangeable lens cameras, those with reflex mirrors are outselling those without mirrors by over 4:1.  Considering all digital cameras (P&S, dSLR, and mirrorless), mirrorless cameras account for 10% of the 2013 revenue, dSLRs account for 48% of the 2013 revenue, with fixed lens cameras making up the balance of 42%  (CIPA stats). 

Let's wait for the 2014 stats, shall we? Just so's the Olympus E-M1 and E-M10, the Sony A7 and A7S, and the FUJIFILM X-T1 can be factored in.

So, the customers Canon is 'losing' come from a segment of the market that accounts for less than 10% of camera revenues.   

Right. So Canon can just chuck mirrorless because the market is negligible. LEICA, you listening?
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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2014, 10:39:42 AM »
If the EOS-M 3 has similar capabilities like the 70D and an optional or built-in view finder, then I'm all in ... I'd probably pick up the 11-22 lens along with the camera.
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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2014, 10:42:30 AM »
If the EOS-M 3 has similar capabilities like the 70D and an optional or built-in view finder, then I'm all in ... I'd probably pick up the 11-22 lens along with the camera.

EOS-M prosumer version with fast focus with a 11-22 in kit brought to the US.  Yes please.

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2014, 10:42:30 AM »

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2014, 10:42:58 AM »
...Yes, the reflex mirror will go away at some point, some time after the point where performance of EVFs meets or exceeds that of OVFs (that's a ways off), and image sensor AF performance meets or exceeds that of a dedicated phase AF sensor for both static and moving subjects (we're getting closer to that)...
...Cameras that are similar in size to today's dSLRs, but don't have a reflex mirror, will come along eventually.  We won't be able to call them dSLRs (technically), but they won't fit today's definition of "mirrorless" either...

I don't disagree with the essence of what you are saying. Although I do think the jury is still out on whether or not EVFs will ever outperform and replace OVFs.

It seems to me the Optical View Finder is a pretty elegant solution that's been around for a long time (over 100 years in some form or another and well over 50 as the dominant format for 35mm). It relies on physics, not electronics, and has lots of advantages.

When people complain about Optical View Finders, they generally focus on the mirror movement and size. The slapping of the mirror is one of those things like dynamic range, shadow detail, etc. that a few people fixate on, but which has little practical effect for most users.

It's true that a camera without a mirror should be smaller than one with. But, it's also true that size is only a factor in modest focal lengths. Get beyond the edges of the normal range and lens size quickly trumps camera size. Interchangeable lens mirrorless cameras are the height of irony -- small form factor but then, let's carry around multiple lenses. What sense does that make?

Canon has demonstrated with the SL1 that DSLRs can be small too, and still retain all the advantages of an optical mirror.

Not taking issue with you, Neuro, because you get it. Rather just with the mindset that electronic viewfinders will inevitably replace optical simply because they are the latest thing.

Which may be why I'm skeptical about the future of interchangeable lens mirrorless cameras.
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Sella174

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2014, 10:46:35 AM »
What is your point? Where's Canon's incentive to do better in the MILC markets in Europe/North America, if consumers are going to go to DSLRs for form factor anyway? If it's a tiny market, of course they're not going to spend a lot of money on it- there's not much to be gained. And where there is money to be made (Japan), apparently they're doing well already, so again, they have no incentive to release a better camera...

As others have stated, the objective for companies like Canon is to make money ... sacks of it. So, if something doesn't sell well in one market, but it sells pretty darn good in another, then you get those market research guys off their butts and put them to work. Obviously, looking at mirrorless, it seems obvious that Asians prefer the current models (like the EOS-M), whereas Europeans obviously prefer the "SLR"-style. The obvious solution? Redesign the EOS-M into an "SLR"-like package, like Olympus did with the E-M5. Obviously.

(If Canon actually does this, then they owe me a consultation fee of ZAR250 for this advice.  ;) )
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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2014, 10:46:35 AM »