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Author Topic: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?  (Read 39749 times)

Sella174

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2014, 01:28:24 PM »
marketing 101 - segment your market.  Extra maximum profit from each.

Complete the course first. Pay special attention to the module about developing and selling a new type of product in an already competitive market.

Would you be happy if there was only 1 car, a high priced car for the enthusiasts?

Not the same situation, but to continue the analogy ... Olympus, Panasonic, Sony and FUJIFILM are selling 2014-model SUV's; Canon is selling 1960's Land Rovers.
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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2014, 01:28:24 PM »

Sella174

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2014, 01:29:32 PM »
Make the SL1 design mirrorless with a more solid body and your problems are solved. EF/EF-S lens compatibility and a form-factor that people are familiar with and like.

Glad to see someone listens to my mad ravings.  ;D
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2014, 01:39:21 PM »
marketing 101 - segment your market.  Extra maximum profit from each.
Complete the course first. Pay special attention to the module about developing and selling a new type of product in an already competitive market.

Which, as stated, Canon already did…and the EOS M was the second best-selling MILC in Japan last year, outselling Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic, and most models of Sony MILCs.

You can ignore that fact all day long, but that doesn't make it untrue or irrelevant.

Would you be happy if there was only 1 car, a high priced car for the enthusiasts?
Not the same situation, but to continue the analogy ... Olympus, Panasonic, Sony and FUJIFILM are selling 2014-model SUV's; Canon is selling 1960's Land Rovers.

No, Olympus, Panasonic, Sony and FUJIFILM are selling 2014-model mopeds.  Ok, Sony has a car in its lineup, but it's a niche product, sort of like a muscle car - a big, powerful engine in a plain, rather boring chassis.  :P

In this analogy, Canon is Toyota, selling all sorts of models at many price levels, including the Corolla which is the best-selling car in the world.

Toyota looks like they're venturing into the scooter market, too, just like Canon is venturing into the MILC market.

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Sella174

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2014, 01:43:46 PM »
First off, I think you may be overstating the impact of that influence on camera buying decisions.  Are you suggesting that every person to whom you recommend the Fuji XT-1 will buy one, or that no one else may be telling that same person to buy a Canon 650D?  That seems unliklely.  Influence works both ways.  Importantly, it works by observation - Canon's position as the market leader means if you go out and look, you're more likely to see a Canon camera in someone's hands than one made by Fuji, Olympus or Panasonic. 

I have an over-inflated ego ... it is a requirement for my occupation. Nonetheless, I'm right. (History tells me so.)

Second, and more importantly, it's obvious that Canon is diversified into many markets, from imaging systems to industrial equipment.  Their imaging systems business encompasses P&S, ILCs, camcorders, cinema and broadcast, printers, etc.

That is not diversifying. Sony selling insurance in addition to their electronic stuff is diversifying. Strangely enough, the most excellent example for this diversify or die theory is a South African company called Naspers. They actually diversified INTO the market segment that posed the greatest threat to their "original" business.

(Well, maybe I extrapolated from your statements just a bit for dramatic effect…)

Isn't that what Internet forums are for?  ;D
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2014, 01:50:05 PM »
Second, and more importantly, it's obvious that Canon is diversified into many markets, from imaging systems to industrial equipment.  Their imaging systems business encompasses P&S, ILCs, camcorders, cinema and broadcast, printers, etc.

That is not diversifying. Sony selling insurance in addition to their electronic stuff is diversifying.

So Canon will fail because they're not diversified…but Fujifilm and Olympus are diversified?   ::)
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Sella174

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2014, 01:56:43 PM »
Which, as stated, Canon already did…and the EOS M was the second best-selling MILC in Japan last year, outselling Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic, and most models of Sony MILCs.

You can ignore that fact all day long, but that doesn't make it untrue or irrelevant.

Just for you ...

http://youtu.be/tl6u2NASUzU

No, Olympus, Panasonic, Sony and FUJIFILM are selling 2014-model mopeds.  Ok, Sony has a car in its lineup, but it's a niche product, sort of like a muscle car - a big, powerful engine in a plain, rather boring chassis.  :P

In this analogy, Canon is Toyota, selling all sorts of models at many price levels, including the Corolla which is the best-selling car in the world.

Mopeds, huh. More like Vespa scooters, if ask me (which you didn't)!

If the Toyota is the best-selling car in the world, then on sheer numbers it must also be involved in the most accidents ...  ???

Toyota looks like they're venturing into the scooter market, too, just like Canon is venturing into the MILC market.

Toyota also makes forklifts and my personal favourite, the Sesfikile:P
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Sella174

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2014, 02:03:35 PM »
So Canon will fail because they're not diversified…

Eventually.

... but Fujifilm and Olympus are diversified?   ::)

No. FUJIFILM is doing well enough because they are focusing on a few quality products (a la LEICA); but Olympus is making too many mistakes.
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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2014, 02:03:35 PM »

ecka

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2014, 02:23:37 PM »
Oh, please. Fuji's new (X-T1) horrible non-bayer detail-smearing-sensor (even in RAW) is the least impressive cake of all.

To take a lead from neuroanatomist (i.e. argumentum ad populum): The way the X-T1 is selling not many people would agree with you, thus your opinion is negligible.  ;)

Sure it is :). However, the image is what matters the most for enthusiasts, who are in the minority of the whole digital photography business, so the most important opinions from those who care are negligible. The average consumer doesn't participate (or rarely does) in forum discussions like this one. We only know that most EVIL users prefer cheaper toys (like EOS M). Many X-T1 owners would agree that there is a big problem (weird patterns appearing on distant trees or hair, overall image softness). X-T1 with 56/1.2 would cost you more than 6D with 85/1.8, which (in my negligible opinion :)) ) is a much better tool.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 02:29:18 PM by ecka »
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9VIII

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2014, 02:31:26 PM »
Make the SL1 design mirrorless with a more solid body and your problems are solved. EF/EF-S lens compatibility and a form-factor that people are familiar with and like.

One up that, since it's mirrorless use the extra space to put a full frame sensor in the SL1 body.

The primary benefit of mirrorless for me is not size, it's being able to accurately manual focus at f1.4 with the viewfinder.

The reduced size is nice though.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2014, 02:38:15 PM »
So Canon will fail because they're not diversified…
Eventually.

Fair enough.  The sun will explode, and sometime after that the universe will end.  Eventually.  You've been warned.   :P


... but Fujifilm and Olympus are diversified?   ::)
No. FUJIFILM is doing well enough because they are focusing on a few quality products (a la LEICA); but Olympus is making too many mistakes.

Your view of the situation is rather incomplete.  In fact, only ~13% of Fuji's revenue comes from their Imaging Solutions division (which includes their consumer camera products), and income from their Imaging division has dropped steadily over the last 5 years.  Imaging Solutions also includes photo paper and instant cameras, both of which have increased revenues recently, but the drop in digital camera sales has dragged the division down overall. 

So, Fujifilm is doing well because they they sell a lot of office products and medical imaging devices, not becuase they sell 'a few quality products (a la LEICA)'. 

Speaking of Leica, Leica Camera is a niche company that exists primarily becuase the conglomerate that bought the rest of Leica (Danaher purchased the Microsystems and Geosystems divisions a few years back) didn't want the camera division, because it doesn't fit with their B2B business model.  Leica Camera had to license their own name back from Danaher. 
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Sella174

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2014, 03:02:56 PM »
Your view of the situation is rather incomplete.

It usually is ... ignorance is bliss and all that rot.  ;)

In fact, only ~13% of Fuji's revenue comes from their Imaging Solutions division (which includes their consumer camera products), and income from their Imaging division has dropped steadily over the last 5 years.

A drop is OK, unless it goes negative and you start losing money ... then it's time to fire the execs.

Imaging Solutions also includes photo paper and instant cameras, both of which have increased revenues recently, but the drop in digital camera sales has dragged the division down overall. 

I wonder why? (Well, actually not ... I know the reason, but it's so revolutionary that the sun will probably explode or something before anyone will comprehend the theory ... or because of it.)

So, Fujifilm is doing well because they they sell a lot of office products and medical imaging devices, not becuase they sell 'a few quality products (a la LEICA)'. 

Apart from their Inferia Superia films, I've never seen anything other than photographic stuff labeled FUJIFILM here in South Africa ... just don't tell me they also make bio-potties like Panasonic!

Speaking of Leica, Leica Camera is a niche company that exists primarily becuase the conglomerate that bought the rest of Leica (Danaher purchased the Microsystems and Geosystems divisions a few years back) didn't want the camera division, because it doesn't fit with their B2B business model.  Leica Camera had to license their own name back from Danaher.

LEICA is always the ol' rusty nail that deflates the whole argument against the profitability of niche markets, aren't they? Ooooh, how I love 'em. ;D
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2014, 03:48:05 PM »
LEICA is always the ol' rusty nail that deflates the whole argument against the profitability of niche markets, aren't they?

Who's arguing that niche markets are unprofitable?  They can be quite profitable, if managed (aka exploited) properly.  The 1-series bodies are a niche market, the 1D C even more so – and they're priced for Canon to profit from them. Ferrari has been in business for a long time. 

The thing that needs to be deflated is some people's idea that niche market high-end gear should be sold to them as mass-market prices.
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dtaylor

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2014, 03:50:24 PM »
You should care: mirrorless is the future of Canon's camera business; more to the point, it's the future profit of Canon's camera business.

It's amazing how people keep saying things like this even though the mirrorless market has failed to materialize in the U.S. and Europe, and is still a side market in Japan.

And this is coming from someone who loves his EOS M, wants to see more EOS M bodies and lenses, and thinks mirrorless in general is underrated by the public.

The DSLR isn't going any where, and Canon's profits will continue to come from brisk Rebel sales.

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2014, 03:50:24 PM »

l_d_allan

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2014, 04:19:54 PM »
I don't know the tradeoffs involved, or even whether it's possible, but IMO it's too bad Canon didn't design the M series so it could use EF-S lenses without adapter.
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unfocused

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2014, 04:23:27 PM »
LEICA is always the ol' rusty nail that deflates the whole argument against the profitability of niche markets, aren't they?

Who's arguing that niche markets are unprofitable?  They can be quite profitable, if managed (aka exploited) properly.  The 1-series bodies are a niche market, the 1D C even more so – and they're priced for Canon to profit from them.

I was about to respond to this, but you said it better and more succinctly than I could.

One additional thought though: people shouldn't confuse niche market profitability with large company sustainability. The 1-series bodies may be very profitable for Canon (I really don't know if they are or if they are a marketing loss-leader), but they couldn't possibly sustain the entire company because there just aren't enough buyers.

The Rebels, on the other hand, may be a small profit item, but I suspect the t3i contributes more to the overall bottom line than all the 1-series put together.

Point being -- large companies must pick and choose which niche markets to enter and sustain. Canon and Nikon remain in the flagship DSLR market in part because it aligns well with their prosumer, enthusiast, consumer and entry-level marketing.

Neither Canon nor Nikon have ever shown much interest in medium format cameras. I suspect it is because the small dollars available won't allow sufficient return to justify the investment and they can put those dollars to better use in other niche markets that align better with their overall mission – cinema DSLRs for example.

You should care: mirrorless is the future of Canon's camera business; more to the point, it's the future profit of Canon's camera business.

It's amazing how people keep saying things like this even though the mirrorless market has failed to materialize in the U.S. and Europe, and is still a side market in Japan.

Additionally, the jury is still out on whether the Japanese and other Asian markets are the leading edge or the trailing edge. Just because mirrorless currently seems to be doing well in Asia, too many people assume that's the future.

But, the evidence can be read in just the opposite way – mirrorless might be just a temporary infatuation for a market that could ultimately end up following Europe and the Americas into the DSLR love affair.

Okay, I know it's very risky to combine the Japanese market with the rest of Asia. Japan is a mature market and mirrorless seems primarily focused on generational and gender-based preferences in Japan.

But, China is an emerging market and ultimately may be a much more important one at that. As the middle- and upper-classes expand in China, they may find DSLRs just as appealing as their European and American counterparts.

So my point remains -- we really don't know if mirrorless is the wave of the future or not, even in Asia.

Side Note: Looks like the HTML might be screwed up on this post. Can't find a way to get in to it to see what the problem might be. My apologies.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 04:26:10 PM by unfocused »

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Re: Canon EOS M3 in Q3 of 2014?
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2014, 04:23:27 PM »