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Author Topic: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?  (Read 7852 times)

Marsu42

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2014, 09:16:32 AM »
And where does it say the 7D is commonly known for an imprecise AF system? ???


See Lensrentals, other than "all over the net" this is one source I trust... scroll down to the 50d vs 7d vs 60d graph. Subjectively, this squares with my experience that the 60d af works just fine (it just has too few points and zero af tracking fw configuration) while I now and again read about 7d users struggling with their 7d.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/autofocus-reality-part-3b-canon-cameras

In their test the newest t4i is the most precise, that's why I assumed this trend to continue with the 70d - but as I wrote above, I didn't research this and Canon might have also just put the very same 7d af module into the newer camera.

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2014, 09:16:32 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2014, 09:33:51 AM »
And where does it say the 7D is commonly known for an imprecise AF system? ???


See Lensrentals, other than "all over the net" this is one source I trust... scroll down to the 50d vs 7d vs 60d graph. Subjectively, this squares with my experience that the 60d af works just fine (it just has too few points and zero af tracking fw configuration) while I now and again read about 7d users struggling with their 7d.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/autofocus-reality-part-3b-canon-cameras

In their test the newest t4i is the most precise, that's why I assumed this trend to continue with the 70d - but as I wrote above, I didn't research this and Canon might have also just put the very same 7d af module into the newer camera.


The difference between the T3i and T4i might approach significance, but there's really no significant difference between the 50D, 7D, 60D, and T3i, and 5DII.  About all you can conclude from those graphs is that the 1D X and 5DIII are significantly better. 

Also, bear in mind that Roger states, "We then tested it in our Imatest lab using one copy of each Canon camera we carry."  I didn't notice that the first time I read the article.  One copy?  Knowing what Roger knows about variability, I'm surprised he tested only one copy of each camera. 
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MichaelHodges

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2014, 10:37:19 AM »
Advising against purchasing a product because of a few (relative to units sold) complaints on the Internet is foolish.

That's a bit presumptuous, isn't it?  I'm assuming you're making that statement because you are privy to Canon's repair center data?

As users outside of Canon's internal workings we can only judge product satisfaction through feedback of our peers. And, accordingly, the "noise" out there for the 70D and 7D seems to be much higher than their other  camera bodies. 

I sympathize with many who complain about the 7D/70D focus issues as my experience mirrors the inconsistency.

The complaints of the 70D are especially interesting (many from Germany, it seems) which uses the same AF as the 7D:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUUxpneyGsY

A petition to Canon with 400 signatures:

https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/canon-70d-autofokus-maengel-fuer-eine-ehrliche-stellungnahme-von-canon


Now, does this mean every Canon 70D is bad? Of course not.  But that doesn't matter when you're one of the customers who got a bad one, and you lose great shots, and suddenly find yourself beyond the return date.
 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 10:43:15 AM by MichaelHodges »

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2014, 11:19:59 AM »
The complaints of the 70D are especially interesting (many from Germany, it seems) which uses the same AF as the 7D:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUUxpneyGsY

A petition to Canon with 400 signatures:

https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/canon-70d-autofokus-maengel-fuer-eine-ehrliche-stellungnahme-von-canon

Now, does this mean every Canon 70D is bad? Of course not.  But that doesn't matter when you're one of the customers who got a bad one, and you lose great shots, and suddenly find yourself beyond the return date.


Thanks for supporting my point, albeit unintentionally.  That video was linked earlier in this thread, and based on the information provided in the clip, the 'problem' being demonstrated – sharp images with live view, OOF images with viewfinder AF – is exactly what AFMA is designed to correct.  How many of those 400 petition signers know what AFMA is, and have properly calibrated their lenses?  I suspect the number of petitioin signers with a camera that's actually defective is much smaller than 400, as many of those people quite likely read about it on the Internet, and decided they have a problem unit despite not checking appropriately.   So, you have a few people in Germany with cameras that are actually defective…and it's the second best selling dSLR in the country according to Amazon.

Why Germany?  Most likely beacuse someone there got a defective camera and posted about it on a German-language forum. 

Sure, it's unfortunate that some people get defective products, but as I stated, defective units are unavoidable in any mass-produced item.  In the case of the 70D, the camera came out less than one year ago, meaning everyone who owns one still has warranty coverage provided by Canon. 

When a problem is documented and widespread, Canon issues a Product Advisory and provides free repair for the problem, even after warranty coverage has expired.  Among EOS Bodies, there have been service notices for lots of them, including the 7D.  The 7D's documented issues were a residual image (corrected by firmware update) and an issue the off-center points non functioning as cross-type with a few very old Canon lenses (also affected 40D-60D, and probably affects the 70D, and the newer Rebel/xxxD bodies that inherited the 40-60D AF; more significant was that the problem also affected a few 3rd party lenses, like the fairly popular Tamron 17-50/2.8…but that's not Canon's problem, is it?). No where on the list of Product Advisories is there an issue listed for inconsistency/imprecision of the 7D's or 70D's AF system. 
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Don Haines

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2014, 11:51:25 AM »
The complaints of the 70D are especially interesting (many from Germany, it seems) which uses the same AF as the 7D:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUUxpneyGsY

A petition to Canon with 400 signatures:

https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/canon-70d-autofokus-maengel-fuer-eine-ehrliche-stellungnahme-von-canon

Now, does this mean every Canon 70D is bad? Of course not.  But that doesn't matter when you're one of the customers who got a bad one, and you lose great shots, and suddenly find yourself beyond the return date.


Thanks for supporting my point, albeit unintentionally.  That video was linked earlier in this thread, and based on the information provided in the clip, the 'problem' being demonstrated – sharp images with live view, OOF images with viewfinder AF – is exactly what AFMA is designed to correct.  How many of those 400 petition signers know what AFMA is, and have properly calibrated their lenses?  I suspect the number of petitioin signers with a camera that's actually defective is much smaller than 400, as many of those people quite likely read about it on the Internet, and decided they have a problem unit despite not checking appropriately.   So, you have a few people in Germany with cameras that are actually defective…and it's the second best selling dSLR in the country according to Amazon.

Why Germany?  Most likely beacuse someone there got a defective camera and posted about it on a German-language forum. 

Sure, it's unfortunate that some people get defective products, but as I stated, defective units are unavoidable in any mass-produced item.  In the case of the 70D, the camera came out less than one year ago, meaning everyone who owns one still has warranty coverage provided by Canon. 

When a problem is documented and widespread, Canon issues a Product Advisory and provides free repair for the problem, even after warranty coverage has expired.  Among EOS Bodies, there have been service notices for lots of them, including the 7D.  The 7D's documented issues were a residual image (corrected by firmware update) and an issue the off-center points non functioning as cross-type with a few very old Canon lenses (also affected 40D-60D, and probably affects the 70D, and the newer Rebel/xxxD bodies that inherited the 40-60D AF; more significant was that the problem also affected a few 3rd party lenses, like the fairly popular Tamron 17-50/2.8…but that's not Canon's problem, is it?). No where on the list of Product Advisories is there an issue listed for inconsistency/imprecision of the 7D's or 70D's AF system.


I think that some of the problem is an expectation that "my new camera" that I paid so much for will nail the autofocus every time.... and when it doesn't, it's the camera that is to blame.

In a way, the statement is true. The 70D does not nail every shot every time. Even in a studio setup on a tripod with good lighting and a printed target, there will be variations in autofocus from shot to shot. What is missing from the understanding is that this problem is common to ALL cameras from ALL manufacturers. As systems get better and AF technology advances, the hit rate will get higher and the variation will get lower, but it will never reach 100% and no variation.

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Marsu42

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2014, 11:53:01 AM »
When a problem is documented and widespread, Canon issues a Product Advisory and provides free repair for the problem, even after warranty coverage has expired.

They do?! I believe you since you're a long time around, but out of interest: When did Canon offer free hardware repair after warranty on non-1d cameras?

And, accordingly, the "noise" out there for the 70D and 7D seems to be much higher than their other  camera bodies.

That is also my impression, but in all fairness this really doesn't mean anything: It could be simply because buyers of a "premium camera" like 7d or at least a "premium af system" like 70d expect better performance and complain more while the rest of us with Rebels and xxd simply says "well, you get what you pay for".

I know the effect because I'm much more critical with my €1600 6d than my (former €900) 60d, obviously often to the dismay of 6d fanbois or - probably a better description - people who cannot find anything wrong with the 6d af system :-}
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 11:56:39 AM by Marsu42 »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2014, 12:30:46 PM »
When a problem is documented and widespread, Canon issues a Product Advisory and provides free repair for the problem, even after warranty coverage has expired.


They do?! I believe you since you're a long time around, but out of interest: When did Canon offer free hardware repair after warranty on non-1d cameras?

Click on some of the service notices, where the problem is a fixable hardware issue, it's fixed for free regardless of timing.  For example, the rubber grip issue for the T4i - "Affected cameras that exhibit this phenomenon will be inspected and the rubber grips will be replaced free of charge," or the original 5D's mirror falling out - "We will repair and reinforce the mirror portion of the affected products free of charge."  Worth noting that the 5D mirror advisory was issued in 2009 - the 5DII had been released and the 5D was discontinued by that point.
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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2014, 12:30:46 PM »

MichaelHodges

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2014, 01:41:40 PM »
is exactly what AFMA is designed to correct.  How many of those 400 petition signers know what AFMA is, and have properly calibrated their lenses?  I suspect the number of petitioin signers with a camera that's actually defective is much smaller than 400, as many of those people quite likely read about it on the Internet, and decided they have a problem unit despite not checking appropriately.   So, you have a few people in Germany with cameras that are actually defective…and it's the second best selling dSLR in the country according to Amazon.



In this scenario, you're presuming things you have no way to check upon unless you work for Canon, or have the skills of a great prophet.

One person could make the case this online noise means only a few duds exist, while another could claim the noise represents a much larger number, like statistical polling does.

Either way is presumptuous unless you have the actual raw data.  The only way for non-Canon employees to gauge product satisfaction is from their peers ,or, as you say below, a product recall. But as you and I both know, mega-corporations are not exactly models of self-regulation.

Quote
Sure, it's unfortunate that some people get defective products, but as I stated, defective units are unavoidable in any mass-produced item.  In the case of the 70D, the camera came out less than one year ago, meaning everyone who owns one still has warranty coverage provided by Canon.   


Unfortunately, that means nothing. My 7D had the dreaded focus issue. I shall not go into the details here.



neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2014, 02:04:32 PM »
In this scenario, you're presuming things you have no way to check upon unless you work for Canon, or have the skills of a great prophet.

One person could make the case this online noise means only a few duds exist, while another could claim the noise represents a much larger number, like statistical polling does.

Either way is presumptuous unless you have the actual raw data.  The only way for non-Canon employees to gauge product satisfaction is from their peers ,or, as you say below, a product recall. But as you and I both know, mega-corporations are not exactly models of self-regulation.




Unfortunately, that means nothing. My 7D had the dreaded focus issue. I shall not go into the details here.

The fact that there was no recall for the 7D's 'dreaded focus issue' (cue Darth Vader theme song) is evidence that it is not a widespread problem (I certainly didn't experience it, nor did any of several friends who use/used a 7D). 

If Canon issues a recall for the 70D's AF 'problem that is all over the Internet' (or if China televises an exposé and bans sale of the camera in their country, like they did for the Nikon D600), I'll happily come back here to eat my words.  Until then, no matter how much frustration a small number of users feel nor how many posts/polls/petitions they make on the internet to express their frustration, the fact remains that they represent only a tiny fraction of users, and their best recourse is to send their cameras in to Canon for service.
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AlanF

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2014, 02:24:39 PM »
My experience is 1 7D and 1 70D. My 7D had the same variability in AF as reported by lensrentals, and the AF with the 300mm f/2.8 II + 2xTCIII could be very, very slow, which is why I sold it. My 70D is as consistent as my 5DIII, which is superb, and focusses fast with the 300mm f/2.8 at 600mm.
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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2014, 03:01:36 PM »
I can only speak from experience...but despite the 7D's advanced focusing system, I find it to be the least accurate/most inconsistent of all the bodies I've used, and this even includes the tiny SL1.

The variability of AF in a single framing can be dramatic from shot to shot. If I take 5 shots in a row, 1 of them will be OOF (sometimes 2, other times none). I've never experienced such variability with any of my other cameras.

However...in terms of speed and responsiveness, there's nothing like it when it comes to shooting action. Even the 5D3 means I have to sacrifice reach...the speed and buffer capacity of the 7D is unmatched in the "crop" department. AF inconsistency and poor high ISO performance are the trade offs.

________

As for 70D vs. 6D...best to try each of them if you can and put them through their paces.

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2014, 03:20:34 PM »
And where does it say the 7D is commonly known for an imprecise AF system? ???


See Lensrentals, other than "all over the net" this is one source I trust... scroll down to the 50d vs 7d vs 60d graph. Subjectively, this squares with my experience that the 60d af works just fine (it just has too few points and zero af tracking fw configuration) while I now and again read about 7d users struggling with their 7d.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/autofocus-reality-part-3b-canon-cameras

In their test the newest t4i is the most precise, that's why I assumed this trend to continue with the 70d - but as I wrote above, I didn't research this and Canon might have also just put the very same 7d af module into the newer camera.


The difference between the T3i and T4i might approach significance, but there's really no significant difference between the 50D, 7D, 60D, and T3i, and 5DII.  About all you can conclude from those graphs is that the 1D X and 5DIII are significantly better. 

Also, bear in mind that Roger states, "We then tested it in our Imatest lab using one copy of each Canon camera we carry."  I didn't notice that the first time I read the article.  One copy?  Knowing what Roger knows about variability, I'm surprised he tested only one copy of each camera.


One other point worth mentioning – the difference in standard deviation between the most precise and least precise bodies that Roger tested is 24 lp/mm.  That represents a variation of less than a 4% difference in resolution.  I'd think carefully about that before citing Roger's post as evidence that the 7D has an imprecise AF system.
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AlanF

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2014, 03:59:38 PM »
Neuro
I think there is a fallacy in Roger's statistics, but I can't really tell because he doesn't provide enough details. First look at the spread.

1.  31.7% of measurements should fall beyond the standard deviation for a normal distribution. Look at the chart for the 5DII (= similar to 7D) vs 5DIII in the lensrental link.  The spread on the y-axis for the 5DII is 650-750, that on the 5DIII is 720-770. That really is enough to notice if you are heavy cropping.

2. The fallacy appears to be this. He is calculating the standard deviation from the mean of the group, and the mean is not the best estimate of the best focussing spot. The best focus is at the very top of the chart!  So, he just measuring a standard deviation from a value which is approximately a standard deviation from the mean.

Look at http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-3a-canon-lenses where there is an incredible difference for the series II lenses between the 5DII and 5DIII. Roger thinks they changed the feedback system between series II lenses and the rest, and  the 5DIII but not the 5DII can handle it.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 04:08:12 PM by AlanF »
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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2014, 03:59:38 PM »

Janbo Makimbo

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2014, 05:23:16 PM »
The 6D is better.

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2014, 05:35:26 PM »
I don't have a 7D, or 70D.

But I do have a 6D. I've been using the "Focal" automated lens focus microadjustment tool to come up with adjustment values for all of my lenses. You line up your camera with the target, attach the camera to your computer via USB, and Focal then does all the focusing and adjusting by itself.

Some really interesting results from my lens collection came out of this. Some lenses focus much more consistently than others, and even some of the consistent lenses really do benefit from the microadjustment.

My 24-105L was incredibly consistent, and needed no corrections. The 40mm STM was also extremely consistent, but needed a little focus tweak. Focal says it's among the sharpest lenses I own at f/8, and that backs up my subjective impression. My old 50 1.4 just had the focus motor replaced, and that one is pretty sharp. The sharpness/aperture curve rises pretty steeply from wide open up to f/4 or so, exactly what you'd expect. But it's not among the most consistent focusers.

Anyway, my point is that at least with static subjects in moderate light, the autofocus on the 6D is plenty reliable. I'm not saying there aren't better systems out there, but I don't believe I'll ever need to worry about losing shots due to AF problems in the 6D.

If any of the rest of you have a couple of different bodies that handle microadjustment, it might be interesting to use Focal to test them all with one solid, consistent lens, and see if they behave differently with it. The Focal guys track all the results that users are willing to submit, and they are seeing patterns with certain bodies and lenses...

Link to Focal's test results: http://www.reikan.co.uk/focalweb/index.php/online-tools/lenscamera-information/lenscamera-tool-help/
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 06:26:08 PM by AE1Pguy »

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Re: Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2014, 05:35:26 PM »