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Author Topic: 1d IV vs. 7D II  (Read 64981 times)

pwp

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2014, 03:47:42 AM »
Do the experts here think that the overall image quality of the 7DII will match or at least come close to the APS-H 1D IV?
I'm certainly hoping the 7DII will be a viable replacement for my high-milage 1D MkIV based on all sorts of performance parameters. But until the over-anticipated 7DII actually ships, speculation is next to useless.

-pw

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2014, 03:47:42 AM »

TrabimanUK

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2014, 04:06:00 AM »
I think that the biggest differnce is that the 7DII has the potential for having a white version, unlike the 1DIV which is only available in black.
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jimwin

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2014, 05:39:03 AM »
My first post as a member of the "family"

This is the most up-beat thread I have read for a long time!
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JohanCruyff

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2014, 06:12:35 AM »
Reading this thread, I can't understand why I never see "sticky" threads on this forum.
 
BTW, I'm sure there are been people who sometimes complain about their 1D IV, but nobody has ever complained about his/her 7DII, so we can induce that the latter is better from a KarlPopperian point of view.
 
 
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danski0224

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2014, 06:27:46 AM »
Okay, I know one is discontinued and the other is non-existent, but this is mostly for fun and a bit of learning.

Do the experts here think that the overall image quality of the 7DII will match or at least come close to the APS-H 1D IV? Why or why not?

Apparently, you have not used the 1DV.

Canon1

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2014, 07:13:00 AM »
Okay, I know one is discontinued and the other is non-existent, but this is mostly for fun and a bit of learning.

Do the experts here think that the overall image quality of the 7DII will match or at least come close to the APS-H 1D IV? Why or why not?

I think it would have to be equal to or better.  There has been a huge leap in ISO usability from the 1d4/5d2 generation to their respective replacements. While it seems you only have gained 1 stop or 2 in regards to noise, I really think that the cleanness of the images across all ISO levels have dramatically improved. The noise we are left with is more of a luminance noise, which is much easier to clean up and retain detail. "Tough" noise was my complaint with the 7d. If they ever come out with a replacement, it doesn't need to revolutionize the high ISO game, but just give easier to work with noise at that ISO 800 - 6400level. Id love to see a 16mp "c" sensor that comes close to a 5d3. I would also welcome the new AF systems.  If they address these categories (if they ever so release a mark ii) then I would buy one.

jrista

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2014, 09:06:52 AM »
Okay, I know one is discontinued and the other is non-existent, but this is mostly for fun and a bit of learning.

Do the experts here think that the overall image quality of the 7DII will match or at least come close to the APS-H 1D IV? Why or why not?

It would really depend on what aspect of IQ is most important to you. Do you need to resolve the finest possible detail, or is low noise the most important thing?

I don't think IQ is some rigidly definable thing. There are objective traits of IQ, and there are subjective traits of IQ. If you require the ability to resolve fine detail, especially at a distance, the 7D II will probably fare better. If you expect the lowest possible noise and need to use higher ISO settings, then the 1D IV will be the better option.

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2014, 09:06:52 AM »

Orangutan

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2014, 09:46:30 AM »
Reading this thread, I can't understand why I never see "sticky" threads on this forum.
 
BTW, I'm sure there are been people who sometimes complain about their 1D IV, but nobody has ever complained about his/her 7DII, so we can induce that the latter is better from a KarlPopperian point of view.

LOL!!   ;D

A wonderful philosophical insight!

takesome1

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2014, 09:55:24 AM »
It is an established fact that pictures taken with the 1D IV are substantially better than those taken with the 7D II.

Compare the 7D II's pictures on the attached link to any 1D IV picture you can find on the web;

http://www.nonexistantsevendtwopictures.com



noisejammer

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2014, 10:02:13 AM »
BTW, I'm sure there are been people who sometimes complain about their 1D IV, but nobody has ever complained about his/her 7DII, so we can induce that the latter is better from a KarlPopperian point of view.
You assume this on the basis that 0/0 > 1/10000?
L'Hopital is horrified. :D

jhpeterson

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2014, 10:39:13 AM »
On the basis of better IQ and lesser noise at high ISO, there's a good chance the 7D II will be at least as good as the 1D IV. In there last few years, there have been great strides made in sensor technology. Let's hope the camera that finally comes to market doesn't have too many, hence smaller, pixels to negate that virtue.
On the other hand, the reliability and durability of the 7d II will likely not come close to the 1D IV (nor any others in the 1D family) unless it's sold at a price point above the 5D III. Since it's being billed as a prosumer camera, we can  be pretty certain THAT's not going to happen.
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jrista

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2014, 11:21:13 AM »
On the basis of better IQ and lesser noise at high ISO, there's a good chance the 7D II will be at least as good as the 1D IV. In there last few years, there have been great strides made in sensor technology. Let's hope the camera that finally comes to market doesn't have too many, hence smaller, pixels to negate that virtue.
On the other hand, the reliability and durability of the 7d II will likely not come close to the 1D IV (nor any others in the 1D family) unless it's sold at a price point above the 5D III. Since it's being billed as a prosumer camera, we can  be pretty certain THAT's not going to happen.

There have been strides in sensor technology, however pixel size still dominates the determination of how much noise you have. Smaller pixels will always have more noise, that's a simple matter of physics. We have improved READ noise with better sensor technology, but read noise is only a small contribution to total noise (especially at high ISO)...photon shot noise is the primary source of noise in images. The larger pixels of the 1D IV will always win out against smaller pixels of APS-C sensors. The only way the 7D II could do better is if it had larger pixels than the 1D IV, however that would make it something like a 10mp sensor...highly unlikely.

traingineer

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2014, 01:14:09 PM »
I think the 1D will still be better, but I heard the Canon EOS 2D Mark 70-1 might be better than the 1D Mark IV.  :D

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2014, 01:14:09 PM »

unfocused

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2014, 02:13:15 PM »
Thanks, Jon Rista for trying to put this back on track.

Apparently some don't get why this matters. If physics really does limit how well an APS-C sensor can perform at higher ISOs (and I have no reason to doubt you on that), then the direction Canon decides to go with the 7DII sensor will tell us much about what the company thinks about the future of high-end crop sensor DSLRs.

If Canon were to release a 16mp 7DII, they are saying something quite different than if they release a 22-24 mp 7DII.

The relevant question for Canon is most likely to be – which one will generate more demand in the marketplace?

Many would say the 16mp sensor, which should have better high ISO performance than the current 18mp sensor. In effect, Canon would be following the same path with its flagship APS-C body that both they and Nikon have followed with their flagship full-frame bodies.

But, what really would be the demand for such a body – a good, maybe even great all-purpose crop body, but still not as good as the almost identically priced 6D in terms of high ISO performance. The 6D would be a better all-purpose body; and would there be sufficient differentiation between the two in the marketplace?

Or Canon could go the other way and release a 24mp crop sensor body -- essentially conceding the high ISO niche to full frame. Would this camera find a bigger market?

While the relative advantages of a crop sensor for reach have been much debated, almost everyone concedes that in cases where the shooter is distance limited and significant cropping is required, pixel density does matter. You will always reach some point where there simply aren't enough pixels to give you a usable image.

So, why the reference to the 1D IV? Because that was the point at which Canon abandoned the sensor that many argue passionately was the ideal compromise between size and reach.  We can't assess or intelligently speculate without first knowing what the constraints are.

If the ISO performance of the APS-H sensor can never be achieved with the smaller APS-C sensor, then Canon must decide which path to go down.

So, unlike the many, many threads where individuals focus solely on what they want and assign human motives to a large corporation (Canon doesn't care...Canon doesn't listen...Canon had better do this...) this is simply an effort to explore what the reasonable expectations may be, so that it gives us a better idea of what choices Canon is facing and, when they announce their decision, we have a better idea of where the market is going.

sagittariansrock

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2014, 02:24:47 PM »
On topic: having used neither 1DIV nor 7DII, I can only surmise that the 7DII will have better IQ due to it's more advanced sensor and processing capabilities. Canon has discontinued its APS-H line, and the 70D is a already a better APS-C than 7D in so many ways for the value segment. So I think Canon will go all the way for the niche segment of a high-end user who need the extra reach of a crop.

I refer to my quote above, which as I mentioned was actually on topic, in spite of the humorless aphorism I (we?) received.  :P
I think there is a big market for a high IQ crop body. Birders, sports photographers, paparazzi. That would be the demand for a 16MP crop body. Maybe not as good at high ISOs as the 6D but with a lot of other advantages.
Think 7D vs 5DII- except Canon has more at stake here after removing the 1D series.

Now think of a 22MP crop body. What can that offer above and beyond the 70D? Not IQ, only FPS, build and maybe AF. Will that satisfy a large consumer base?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 03:20:34 PM by sagittariansrock »
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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2014, 02:24:47 PM »