December 22, 2014, 12:59:58 AM

Author Topic: 1d IV vs. 7D II  (Read 19023 times)

unfocused

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2014, 01:32:42 PM »

Funny how some people can claim iq between cameras without owning them. ;)
I own both a 7d and 1d4 and have compared them a lot ( birding only and most of the time in reach limited situations- who isn't?)...

...if I have to choose one it will be the 7d. That's because the extra pixels on the subject gives me more details...

...If i'm not in a reach limited situations, or if I have to use iso higher than 3200, I would pick the 1d4....

...Please visit www.nature-wildlife-images.com for images...

...I really hope a 7d mk2 will be 22-24 mp and have at least same sensor iq as nikon d7100/pentax k-3.
(+ upgraded af, buffer, fps, silent shutter, ev comp in M etc)
Just like Pentax K-3  ;)

Thanks Petter. I really appreciate the real world experience and basically you seem to be confirming what I have taken away from much of the technical discussion as well.

I really believe the 7D II will have a sensor in the 22-24 mp range and be upgraded with many of the 5D III features (autofocus, silent shutter, dual card slots). Virtually every DSLR made today is great for all-around shooting and the key differentiations are at the margins.

I've often said that I was impressed with how well Canon targeted the 5DIII to a specific market (wedding and event photographers) while still creating a great all-around camera. I expect the 7DII will be similarly targeted to bird, wildlife and sports photographers (but remain a great all-around camera as well). While not a large professional market, the enthusiasts that fit into this category probably make up one of the largest and most affluent sub-categories of photographers.

This fits in with another theory I have – which is that Canon doesn't want to sell people just one camera. They want to grow the market by encouraging buyers to own both a full frame and a crop sensor. A 7DII that provides excellent images in good light and distance-limited situations will very nicely complement a 5DIII, which shines in poor light, but requires too much cropping when distance-limited.

As I've written before, I started this thread in part to define the upper limits of performance, so as to better manage expectations. If one has reasonable expectations, then, given Canon's laser-like focus on maximizing opportunities where they find them, I think the 7DII will be quite impressive.
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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2014, 01:32:42 PM »

wickidwombat

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2014, 10:12:27 PM »
Do the experts here think the overall land speed of the unicorn will match or at least come close to that of the dodo? 

 ;)

Well, while it appears the Dodo was fairly swift. Using a modern proxy, the  ostrich (as a large, land bird) runs about 40 mph, I'd put an uneducated, non-scientific guess at about 25-35 mph peak speed.

Assuming that the origination of the Unicorn is from people seeing Rhino's, the White Rhino can run about 31 mph at peak.

If, instead, the Unicorn is really someone's great practical joke and it was simply a horse dressed up, a Quarter horse can run about 47.5 mph.

So, if a Dodo and a Unicorn made a bet as to who would get the land-speed record, if it's a Unicorn based on a White Rhino, it might be a toss-up. If it's a Unicorn based on a dressed up horse, pretty much the horse would win.

And now I feel all proud and geeky and self satisfied that I have go through the time and effort to attempt to make an absolutely meaningless point about something completely unrelated to the original topic.
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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2014, 01:05:40 AM »

Funny how some people can claim iq between cameras without owning them. ;)
I own both a 7d and 1d4 and have compared them a lot ( birding only and most of the time in reach limited situations- who isn't?)...

...if I have to choose one it will be the 7d. That's because the extra pixels on the subject gives me more details...

...If i'm not in a reach limited situations, or if I have to use iso higher than 3200, I would pick the 1d4....

...Please visit www.nature-wildlife-images.com for images...

...I really hope a 7d mk2 will be 22-24 mp and have at least same sensor iq as nikon d7100/pentax k-3.
(+ upgraded af, buffer, fps, silent shutter, ev comp in M etc)
Just like Pentax K-3  ;)

Thanks Petter. I really appreciate the real world experience and basically you seem to be confirming what I have taken away from much of the technical discussion as well.

I really believe the 7D II will have a sensor in the 22-24 mp range and be upgraded with many of the 5D III features (autofocus, silent shutter, dual card slots). Virtually every DSLR made today is great for all-around shooting and the key differentiations are at the margins.

I've often said that I was impressed with how well Canon targeted the 5DIII to a specific market (wedding and event photographers) while still creating a great all-around camera. I expect the 7DII will be similarly targeted to bird, wildlife and sports photographers (but remain a great all-around camera as well). While not a large professional market, the enthusiasts that fit into this category probably make up one of the largest and most affluent sub-categories of photographers.

This fits in with another theory I have – which is that Canon doesn't want to sell people just one camera. They want to grow the market by encouraging buyers to own both a full frame and a crop sensor. A 7DII that provides excellent images in good light and distance-limited situations will very nicely complement a 5DIII, which shines in poor light, but requires too much cropping when distance-limited.

As I've written before, I started this thread in part to define the upper limits of performance, so as to better manage expectations. If one has reasonable expectations, then, given Canon's laser-like focus on maximizing opportunities where they find them, I think the 7DII will be quite impressive.

It is not so much that Canon is splitting up the market so much as the physical nature of the sensors are splitting up the market. Larger sensors have better light sensitivity while smaller ones have better reach.

It is surprising that they don't have a range of cameras with even smaller sized sensors specialized for very long range photography as well. A smaller crop size would make ultra telephoto lenses much more portable and practical to use.

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2014, 01:28:52 AM »
Typically I bring both cameras in the field, if possible. However, if I have to choose one it will be the 7d. Thats because the extra pixels on the subject gives me more details and less noise after pp and downsampling of the 7d crop to the same images crop  as 1d4.

Haha, what?  I've had both and the 1DIV is vastly superior in every way -  IQ, AF (especially tracking AF), noise handling, etc + I can crop deeper into a mkIV image without it turning into a noisy mess than I ever could with my 7D.  The 7D is useless past ISO 800 imo if you intend to crop at all, which, if you are shooting birds, you will be 99.995% of the time.  When I first got my 1DIV I was positively giddy at how much better the images were to work with and how much better they look.  Whatever small advantage can be gained with the crop factor is absolutely steamrolled by every other aspect of the APS-H and the 1D body.

Actually, the one thing I really do miss about the 7D is the precision center AF point.  That was pretty badass.  I don't miss how it dropped focus every other frame in servo mode, however.

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2014, 05:49:22 AM »
I don't apply NR to my images.

If you use ACR and do not explicitly reduce it to 0, you are using it. With DPP or in camera JPEG it doesn't matter if you choose the lowest setting, some is applied any way. You can get away with truly zero NR in low ISO images that are perfectly exposed, but if you're not taking advantage of it at higher ISOs then you are literally handicapping your output vs. cheaper and older sensors that are optimally post processed.

I can't help but feel that I'm missing something. If you were working with raw files from both cameras, wouldn't the 1DIV give you a cleaner image in the final result because the RAW image itself is cleaner to begin with?

Not necessarily because the relationship between NR and detail is not a simple linear one. If you apply X NR to a RAW file to achieve a certain noise and detail level, you may be able to apply X+Y NR to a more noisy RAW file to end up with the same result. Depends on the gap between sensors, the NR algorithms, the settings you feed those algorithms, and also the image itself.

Comparing swatches that have been run through a noise reduction process means your no longer comparing the most objective data.

I was comparing the IR studio scene and looking at the entire scene.

Quote
Sorry to burst your bubble here D by disproving your theory that the 70D has the same low noise as the 1D IV, but there it is in gray, black, and blue.

I'm sorry you didn't understand my post and still don't realize how pointless and irrelevant unprocessed gray patches are. In the real world making real images 70D IQ is indistinguishable from 1D4 IQ until very high ISOs where it's still fairly close. That's sufficient to answer the question posted by unfocused.

Unless, of course, unfocused will be primarily shooting patches in RAW and converting with NR completely off. In which case he should forget about the 7D2 and 1D4 and buy a Nikon or a Sony.

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2014, 08:05:27 AM »
Typically I bring both cameras in the field, if possible. However, if I have to choose one it will be the 7d. Thats because the extra pixels on the subject gives me more details and less noise after pp and downsampling of the 7d crop to the same images crop  as 1d4.

Haha, what?  I've had both and the 1DIV is vastly superior in every way -  IQ, AF (especially tracking AF), noise handling, etc + I can crop deeper into a mkIV image without it turning into a noisy mess than I ever could with my 7D.  The 7D is useless past ISO 800 imo if you intend to crop at all, which, if you are shooting birds, you will be 99.995% of the time.  When I first got my 1DIV I was positively giddy at how much better the images were to work with and how much better they look.  Whatever small advantage can be gained with the crop factor is absolutely steamrolled by every other aspect of the APS-H and the 1D body.

Actually, the one thing I really do miss about the 7D is the precision center AF point.  That was pretty badass.  I don't miss how it dropped focus every other frame in servo mode, however.
Sounds like you are shooting jpg only.  ;)
To compensate for the higher amont of pixels on the subject you need to put a extra tc on the lens on 1d4.
This will cancel out the one stop iso advantage 1d4 has vs 7d.
Also the af will be slower due 1 stop slower lens (with tc).
If You are in a reach limited situation with the 500mm + tc's and the two bodys, what combination would you use?
1d4 + 2x tc or 7d+1.4tc?
The 7d combo will win regarding details and AF speed. Noise will be equal.
Maybe you would stick with 1d4 +1.4 tc. In this case the 1d4 af will be better.  7d will have better details but more noise. However, you can easily pp the more detailed image from 7d and then downsample to show same subject size at 1d4. Again, the 7d will win. At least for isos up to somewhere betwen 1600 and 3200.

You said spot af is the only thing you miss from 7d. What about a quick way of change shooting setup from BIF mode to static mode? If you are a birder and dont miss that, I doubt you seriously have used these bodys. Or maybe you can give me a good tip ;)

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2014, 08:35:01 AM »
Typically I bring both cameras in the field, if possible. However, if I have to choose one it will be the 7d. Thats because the extra pixels on the subject gives me more details and less noise after pp and downsampling of the 7d crop to the same images crop  as 1d4.

Haha, what?  I've had both and the 1DIV is vastly superior in every way -  IQ, AF (especially tracking AF), noise handling, etc + I can crop deeper into a mkIV image without it turning into a noisy mess than I ever could with my 7D.  The 7D is useless past ISO 800 imo if you intend to crop at all, which, if you are shooting birds, you will be 99.995% of the time.  When I first got my 1DIV I was positively giddy at how much better the images were to work with and how much better they look.  Whatever small advantage can be gained with the crop factor is absolutely steamrolled by every other aspect of the APS-H and the 1D body.

Actually, the one thing I really do miss about the 7D is the precision center AF point.  That was pretty badass.  I don't miss how it dropped focus every other frame in servo mode, however.
Sounds like you are shooting jpg only.  ;)
To compensate for the higher amont of pixels on the subject you need to put a extra tc on the lens on 1d4.
This will cancel out the one stop iso advantage 1d4 has vs 7d.
Also the af will be slower due 1 stop slower lens (with tc).
If You are in a reach limited situation with the 500mm + tc's and the two bodys, what combination would you use?
1d4 + 2x tc or 7d+1.4tc?
The 7d combo will win regarding details and AF speed. Noise will be equal.
Maybe you would stick with 1d4 +1.4 tc. In this case the 1d4 af will be better.  7d will have better details but more noise. However, you can easily pp the more detailed image from 7d and then downsample to show same subject size at 1d4. Again, the 7d will win. At least for isos up to somewhere betwen 1600 and 3200.

You said spot af is the only thing you miss from 7d. What about a quick way of change shooting setup from BIF mode to static mode? If you are a birder and dont miss that, I doubt you seriously have used these bodys. Or maybe you can give me a good tip ;)

You are making two different arguments and neither tally with real world use.

First you say you the 7D has "the extra pixels on the subject gives me more details and less noise after pp and downsampling", then you say "To compensate for the higher amont of pixels on the subject you need to put a extra tc on the lens on 1d4."

But your assumption, one I have found normally propagated by people who don't actually have the gear, is that all pixels are equal, are you seriously trying to tell us a 7D pixel is worth exactly the same as a 1D MkIV pixel? Because that is what you have said, and it is not true.

Market forces determine camera output, it is funny but true just look at the drop in value of the 1D MkIII since the 5D MkIII came out, a 7D can be had for $600 -$900, the 1D MkIV is still around $2,500.

So would you mind showing us a couple of your images that illustrate your conclusions?

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2014, 08:35:01 AM »

bdunbar79

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #97 on: April 22, 2014, 08:45:29 AM »
Typically I bring both cameras in the field, if possible. However, if I have to choose one it will be the 7d. Thats because the extra pixels on the subject gives me more details and less noise after pp and downsampling of the 7d crop to the same images crop  as 1d4.

Haha, what?  I've had both and the 1DIV is vastly superior in every way -  IQ, AF (especially tracking AF), noise handling, etc + I can crop deeper into a mkIV image without it turning into a noisy mess than I ever could with my 7D.  The 7D is useless past ISO 800 imo if you intend to crop at all, which, if you are shooting birds, you will be 99.995% of the time.  When I first got my 1DIV I was positively giddy at how much better the images were to work with and how much better they look.  Whatever small advantage can be gained with the crop factor is absolutely steamrolled by every other aspect of the APS-H and the 1D body.

Actually, the one thing I really do miss about the 7D is the precision center AF point.  That was pretty badass.  I don't miss how it dropped focus every other frame in servo mode, however.
Sounds like you are shooting jpg only.  ;)
To compensate for the higher amont of pixels on the subject you need to put a extra tc on the lens on 1d4.
This will cancel out the one stop iso advantage 1d4 has vs 7d.
Also the af will be slower due 1 stop slower lens (with tc).
If You are in a reach limited situation with the 500mm + tc's and the two bodys, what combination would you use?
1d4 + 2x tc or 7d+1.4tc?
The 7d combo will win regarding details and AF speed. Noise will be equal.
Maybe you would stick with 1d4 +1.4 tc. In this case the 1d4 af will be better.  7d will have better details but more noise. However, you can easily pp the more detailed image from 7d and then downsample to show same subject size at 1d4. Again, the 7d will win. At least for isos up to somewhere betwen 1600 and 3200.

You said spot af is the only thing you miss from 7d. What about a quick way of change shooting setup from BIF mode to static mode? If you are a birder and dont miss that, I doubt you seriously have used these bodys. Or maybe you can give me a good tip ;)

Since nobody asked it yet, I will:  WTF??
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Pit123

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2014, 10:13:59 AM »

You are making two different arguments and neither tally with real world use.

First you say you the 7D has "the extra pixels on the subject gives me more details and less noise after pp and downsampling", then you say "To compensate for the higher amont of pixels on the subject you need to put a extra tc on the lens on 1d4."

But your assumption, one I have found normally propagated by people who don't actually have the gear, is that all pixels are equal, are you seriously trying to tell us a 7D pixel is worth exactly the same as a 1D MkIV pixel? Because that is what you have said, and it is not true.

Market forces determine camera output, it is funny but true just look at the drop in value of the 1D MkIII since the 5D MkIII came out, a 7D can be had for $600 -$900, the 1D MkIV is still around $2,500.

So would you mind showing us a couple of your images that illustrate your conclusions?

You dont get it, do you?
To equalize a crop of the same target shooting with the same lens from same distance using same settings you can a: Downsize the 7d crop to same amount of pixels as 1d4. After downsizing, the iq looks very similar if you dont do any pp before downsizing. Same noise, same details. (downsizing removes noise).
Or b: you can put on a 1.4x tc on the lens when shooting with 1d4 to get the same details on subject as 7d.
Adding the tc change the aperture and you have to double the iso to compensate. Hence same noise and same details if the tc is not reducing any details.
Thats the basic. But above around iso 2000, the smaller pixels on 7d breaks apart and 7d loose iq. Below iso 2000, 7d will win if you pp before downsizing. If you dont downsize but instead put a tc on, 7d will also win due to the reduced optical quality from the tc.

Don Haines

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #99 on: April 22, 2014, 10:34:15 AM »
Such a pasionate debate over the relative merits of an obsolete camera against an imaginary camera.....

I imagine that the imaginary camera will be superior in every way.... therefore the imaginary camera wins...  :)
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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #100 on: April 22, 2014, 11:04:44 AM »

You dont get it, do you?


Oh yes, I get it, but you obviously didn't. I am calling you out and asking for actual images of yours that support your theory. And now note you arlimiting the comparison to focal length limited situations, which isn't particularly valid most of the time for most people.

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #101 on: April 22, 2014, 11:05:57 AM »
Such a pasionate debate over the relative merits of an obsolete camera against an imaginary camera.....

I imagine that the imaginary camera will be superior in every way.... therefore the imaginary camera wins...  :)

Don, I was happy to leave well alone until they starting comparing two actual cameras. I have no interest in speculation about a 7D MkII.

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #102 on: April 22, 2014, 11:48:28 AM »
Such a pasionate debate over the relative merits of an obsolete camera against an imaginary camera.....

I imagine that the imaginary camera will be superior in every way.... therefore the imaginary camera wins...  :)

Don, I was happy to leave well alone until they starting comparing two actual cameras. I have no interest in speculation about a 7D MkII.

Yeah....

The problem with comparing two cameras is that there will be some things camera A does better than Camera B, and some things Camera B does better than camera A.... and some things equal. Which one is better depends on your priorities so the debate can continue forever without resolution... plus, the thread was a comparison to an imaginary camera, one that will be a lot closer to 70D specs than 7D specs..... so if they are going to pick an actual camera to compare against, why not the 70D?
The best camera is the one in your hands

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #102 on: April 22, 2014, 11:48:28 AM »

privatebydesign

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #103 on: April 22, 2014, 12:12:33 PM »
Such a pasionate debate over the relative merits of an obsolete camera against an imaginary camera.....

I imagine that the imaginary camera will be superior in every way.... therefore the imaginary camera wins...  :)

Don, I was happy to leave well alone until they starting comparing two actual cameras. I have no interest in speculation about a 7D MkII.

Yeah....

The problem with comparing two cameras is that there will be some things camera A does better than Camera B, and some things Camera B does better than camera A.... and some things equal. Which one is better depends on your priorities so the debate can continue forever without resolution... plus, the thread was a comparison to an imaginary camera, one that will be a lot closer to 70D specs than 7D specs..... so if they are going to pick an actual camera to compare against, why not the 70D?

I didn't pick either of them, nor the specific aspect of that comparison. Ergonomics for example can be argued until the cows come home, and then some, but a specific claim of comparative noise and resolution from somebody claiming to be familiar with both cameras should be easy to post their own actual images illustrating that. I am a bit of a loudmouth here sometimes, and to those who don't like that approach I apologise, but I regularly post images that illustrate and support my assertions.

If the comment had been about a 70D I would not have been drawn in as I have no experience with one.

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #104 on: April 22, 2014, 12:13:19 PM »
Sounds like you are shooting jpg only.  ;)
To compensate for the higher amont of pixels on the subject you need to put a extra tc on the lens on 1d4.
This will cancel out the one stop iso advantage 1d4 has vs 7d.
Also the af will be slower due 1 stop slower lens (with tc).
If You are in a reach limited situation with the 500mm + tc's and the two bodys, what combination would you use?
1d4 + 2x tc or 7d+1.4tc?

Assuming the shot is worth taking, 1D4 + 2x.  No question.  The result will be much better.  Even at a higher ISO the 1D4 will give a more manageable picture.  Literally every professional bird/nature photographer would agree.  The disadvantages of the smaller sensor outweigh the small advantage of crop reach.  Note how everyone who can afford it has moved up to the full frame 1DX and the 5DmkIII has become a viable wildlife camera.  Crop reach is largely illusory and only a legitimate factor in a tiny fraction of shooting situations.  Most of the time if the crop would make the difference, you are too far away to take a decent pic anyway.

Quote
The 7d combo will win regarding details and AF speed. Noise will be equal.
Maybe you would stick with 1d4 +1.4 tc. In this case the 1d4 af will be better.  7d will have better details but more noise. However, you can easily pp the more detailed image from 7d and then downsample to show same subject size at 1d4. Again, the 7d will win. At least for isos up to somewhere betwen 1600 and 3200.

This is simply untrue in any real world application.  I've used both cameras extensively and the 7D was a major source of frustration comparatively, particularly and most noticeably when dealing with noise in post. 

The thing is, your own portfolio (which is very nice btw!) demonstrates this difference.  The shots you've taken with the 1d4 are much cleaner and more detailed compared with the shots you've taken with the 7D which generally show quite a bit more noise, even in those downsampled images.  I could clearly pick them out before looking at the technical details at the bottom.  The only ones that I guessed wrong were the black backed gull (which I thought was 1D4) and the Guillemot (which I thought was 7D).  For the rest it was easy to see the difference in quality.

Quote
You said spot af is the only thing you miss from 7d. What about a quick way of change shooting setup from BIF mode to static mode? If you are a birder and dont miss that, I doubt you seriously have used these bodys. Or maybe you can give me a good tip ;)

I always have my 1D4 in servo mode and I switch between 45pt and center point with the joystick.  With the 7D I had to switch between servo and one shot constantly because the 7D would bounce when using servo on a stationary subject.  This isn't an issue with the 1 series AF.  My two big complaints with the 7D, an otherwise great camera, are with noise and the almost-excellent-but-fatally-flawed AF system.

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Re: 1d IV vs. 7D II
« Reply #104 on: April 22, 2014, 12:13:19 PM »