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Author Topic: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR  (Read 10138 times)

dr croubie

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2011, 03:55:29 AM »
From here


Whatever it's going to be called, it's the DSLR-with-video as opposed to the video-that-may-take-photos-C300, and currently it's in a 1DX casing (ie look at the DOF-preview buttons around the lensmount). That may change closer to release, although it's probably going to stay in a gripped body if it needs the space for processing power...
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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2011, 03:55:29 AM »

Edwin Herdman

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2011, 05:56:42 AM »
Thanks for the pic.  Agreed that it probably needs the extra space for power (also heat dissipation).

It looks more like a mockup or a finished product than a testing prototype.  Interesting that there's that much dust on the casing (pentaprism bump) in a short period - must've been a dusty ride, because I didn't read about anybody being allowed to use or even hold it (aside from Canon officials).  Is that true?  Could be, as you say, just a 1D X with a new badge slapped on the front.

jdmitch

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2011, 06:27:16 AM »
Is there any informed speculation as to the price point for this one?  I have been holding my breath for an update on the 5d mkIII or the 7d, but if this is going to be close to the 1dx around $7k, I might as well get a 60d as a "backup" as it has the same sensor as the 7d, and save up for the new Red camera...

ianhar

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2011, 06:51:48 AM »
It really looks likecanon rushed for this event. Personally, i think that camera there is indeed 1dx. The only difference is the badge on it. Thats why they dont let any one hold it or test it because they rush to this event that the prototype might not be on par to show to the public. They just put the camera there just as a show to all the guest.

Bob Howland

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2011, 07:43:01 AM »
The question is which 4K or is it actually QFHD instead?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution

This could be a 50MP camera, Assuming 4:1 binning, Full Aperture 4K X 4 is 50.1MP, Academy 4K X 4 is 39.0MP, QFHD X4 is a mere 33.2MP and QFHD horizontal resolution X 2 with a 1.5:1 aspect ratio is 39.32MP.

My guess is the last value, but I still want to see if/how Canon handles viewfinder masking. I'm also a little puzzled why they would invent this new cinema body then stick their highest resolution sensor into a DSLR body instead.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 07:46:40 AM by Bob Howland »

Meh

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2011, 09:13:48 AM »
The question is which 4K or is it actually QFHD instead?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution

This could be a 50MP camera, Assuming 4:1 binning, Full Aperture 4K X 4 is 50.1MP, Academy 4K X 4 is 39.0MP, QFHD X4 is a mere 33.2MP and QFHD horizontal resolution X 2 with a 1.5:1 aspect ratio is 39.32MP.

My guess is the last value, but I still want to see if/how Canon handles viewfinder masking. I'm also a little puzzled why they would invent this new cinema body then stick their highest resolution sensor into a DSLR body instead.

Why do you assume binning?  That could be a difference between this new video-DSLR (capable of 4k but still Bayer interpolated) and the C 300 that only outputs 1080p but uses binning to increase image quality.

Assuming no line skipping and no binning, a 4k capture from an approximately APS-H sized crop mode (the press release noted "approximately 80% of the vertical and horizontal) would suggest the sensor is just under 17MP.  Given that they said "approximately" it could be the 17.9MP 1DX sensor.

Axilrod

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2011, 01:04:15 PM »
It really looks likecanon rushed for this event. Personally, i think that camera there is indeed 1dx. The only difference is the badge on it. Thats why they dont let any one hold it or test it because they rush to this event that the prototype might not be on par to show to the public. They just put the camera there just as a show to all the guest.

I think Canon knows EXACTLY what they are doing.  They made a splash in Hollywood to get "cred" with the bigwigs and establish themselves as a new, big player in the industry.
It makes more sense to do this than to release 1 new Cinema DSLR and THEN release all the big stuff.  I wish there was something that had been announced "for me" too, but business is business.  I'm sure there is something great coming. 
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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2011, 01:04:15 PM »

pedro

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2011, 02:16:01 PM »
Please forgive my technical ignorance.
As a non-anglo I just like to ask:
Where do we go from here towards a 5Dish FF DSLR that is mainly designed to do stills?
Or is there another FF Body to be announced sometime next year...A 6?

With much lesser video than this beast here
at around the same MP's like the current 5D2
some of the 1Dx specs having trickled down into it
lets say, equal ISO range,
some additional fps
and maybe a 7D focus system?
Price tag: 3 to 3,5 k

Anyone? Thanks!
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neuroanatomist

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2011, 02:39:54 PM »
Assuming no line skipping and no binning, a 4k capture from an approximately APS-H sized crop mode (the press release noted "approximately 80% of the vertical and horizontal) would suggest the sensor is just under 17MP.  Given that they said "approximately" it could be the 17.9MP 1DX sensor.

I agree - they'll reuse the 1D X sensor for this new C-series video dSLR, just like they're reusing the 1D X body in the mockup.
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pedro

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2011, 02:49:37 PM »
Here's a comment from dpr

"It will be less than the flagship 1DX. The 4k video only works with 24p. If we want 60p or 120p would cost over $10k.
It will take the place of the APS-H 1D series price range maybe a bit cheaper because Canon knows the success relies on competitive pricing. Too high a price people lose interest or choose something else from RED or Sony.

The 5D series will split. We may see another FF camera with inferior video at around $2k."
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Edwin Herdman

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2011, 05:04:32 PM »
Why do you assume binning?  That could be a difference between this new video-DSLR (capable of 4k but still Bayer interpolated) and the C 300 that only outputs 1080p but uses binning to increase image quality.
I was with you at the first sentence - the new 1D X shows that it's possible to sample some decently large sensors without resorting to binning.  You lost me at the parentetical "(capable of 4k but still Bayer interpolated)" though:  All these cameras will have to use Bayer demosaicing to get pixels, unless Canon is moving to non-Bayer technology.

dr croubie

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2011, 08:30:49 PM »
Why do you assume binning?  That could be a difference between this new video-DSLR (capable of 4k but still Bayer interpolated) and the C 300 that only outputs 1080p but uses binning to increase image quality.
I was with you at the first sentence - the new 1D X shows that it's possible to sample some decently large sensors without resorting to binning.  You lost me at the parentetical "(capable of 4k but still Bayer interpolated)" though:  All these cameras will have to use Bayer demosaicing to get pixels, unless Canon is moving to non-Bayer technology.

What he means is, the C300 is an 8MP sensor, in the same way as my 7D is an 18MP sensor. It has 8 Million (near enough) photosites, 2mil red, 2mil blue, 4mil green. Same as my 7D has 18million photosites, 4.5mil red, 4.5milblue, 9mil green.
The C300 takes 1 red, 1 blue, and 2 green photosites and calls it a "video pixel", and there's 1920*1080 "video pixels on the sensor.
The 7D takes 1 red, 1 blue, and 2 green photosites, and calls it 4 pixels. The red pixel takes blue and green colour information from its neighbours, and so on. That's what he means by "bayer interpretation". The colour information of every pixel is only ever exact for one colour, and "near-enough" for the other two colours.

Technically, the C300 could (but doesn't) take 8MP stills photos exactly the same as my 7D takes 18MP stills photos. If they added some firmware (and probably processing power) to the same C300 sensor, they could take 3840*2160 video in the same way.
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Edwin Herdman

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2011, 08:50:17 PM »
I didn't know about the different sensor earlier, but I see it was described here:
http://www.eoshd.com/content/5157/technical-analysis-of-the-new-canon-eos-c300

Quote
Like Foveon technology the output of the sensor does not need demosaicing and instead of interpolating colour then de-bayering, the sensor has a separate red, green and blue photo site for each pixel – hence the 8MP count and the 1080p output.
That is, by definition, not Bayer interpolation, just like I wrote.

On the other hand, one of the replies is this:
Quote
Pretty much agree except that, by looking at the illustrations Canon put up, it is in fact a traditional Bayer sensor but instead of demosaicing/interpolating it just uses a 2×2 block of the RGGB pattern to spit out one pixel with a red, blue and green reading.
I'll have to hunt those down and see what I think for myself - getting conflicting stories on this one.

This also reveals (edit: maybe) more about what had been previously a minor mystery - what Canon was doing with their own Foveon-like technology.  I don't see proof this is the exact same type of technology as seen in the chip but it sure sounds close.

Just a random point (that I finally cleared up after getting it wrong):  Scarlet does RAW video, essentially - no chroma subsampling - while the Canon does 4:2:2 chroma subsampling.  Different issue though.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 09:06:28 PM by Edwin Herdman »

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2011, 08:50:17 PM »

Meh

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Re: *UPDATE 2* The Red Dot EOS DSLR
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2011, 09:36:49 PM »
Quote
Like Foveon technology the output of the sensor does not need demosaicing and instead of interpolating colour then de-bayering, the sensor has a separate red, green and blue photo site for each pixel – hence the 8MP count and the 1080p output.
That is, by definition, not Bayer interpolation, just like I wrote.

Right, but that is for the C300 sensor... they are binning an RGGB set and not using bayer interpolation.  But your assumption for the "red dot DSLR video camera" was that they were also going to use the same binning as the C300 which is why you then came up with the 50MP sensor (unless I misunderstood).  My point is that they won't use binning, rather they would capture a 4k image from the centre section of a ~17-18MP sensor (i.e. the 1DX sensor) and use the usual bayer interpolation to derive colour and luminance for each pixel.  This would differentiate the two cameras... the C 300 would only be a 2k output (from an 8MP sensor) but much better colour (they talked about getting better skin tones) and less noise than the 4k output of the new DSLR camera (from an 18MP FF sensor).

Anyway we're all just guessing here, who knows what they'll come up with.

pedro

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Re: *UPDATE 2* ...So, where do we go from here?
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2011, 08:18:27 AM »
I am not in too much tech, so this might seem quite off topic

Is the Red Dot DSLR the 5Dii replacement
or is it to be seen as another higher level body?

In case of, is there another, even lesser body to be expected then?

Or will the new DSLR in development leave just a huge gap between 7D and the lowest priced FF body?

Thanks. I was about to go FF with a next 5D upgrade. I almost guess, it was not to be...Shall I go for a 5Dii instead, while the price tag is low, as my main focus is on still photography and the 1Dx definetly isn't my league moneywise ?

Thanks for any good advice
Pedro
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Re: *UPDATE 2* ...So, where do we go from here?
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2011, 08:18:27 AM »