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Author Topic: Concept Cinema DSLR Official  (Read 22473 times)

Edwin Herdman

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2011, 03:21:05 PM »
Again, if you are going to claim this is f/2.8-3.5 you need to back it up because you're stating something that seems physically impossible - the lens having a smaller aperture than its T-stop rating permits.

Is that not how T-stop ratings work, T>f? ie DXOmark gives the EF 24 f/1.4 Lii a Tstop rating of 1.6, and the 17-55 f/2.8 has a T-stop of 3.4. At T2.95-3.7, I just guessed the new lens would have f/2.8-3.5, could be a lot wider aperture.
An "ideal" lens would have T=f, impossible is T<f? Or maybe i'm backwards, it's late.


I believe that's correct.  A T-stop can be measured for any lens, it is common for cine-lens where very precise control and consistency of the exposure is required.  For any lens, the T-stop is the equivalent f-stop if the lens had zero transmission loss.  Therefore the T-stop is always higher (larger number) than the f-stop of the lens.

Hmm, I apparently was imagining things.  Right, I don't have a problem with having actual T-stops larger ("narrower" in aperture terms) than the f-stops.  Sorry for the harangue!

As the lens is T=2.95-3.7, starting at f/2.8 seems pretty optimistic, however.  There is more glass in the lens than in the 17-55mm f/2.8, to quote the nice example you gave.  f/2.8 seems like a nice starting point, but the f-number could well be closer to the prime lenses which are T 2.6 (and therefore larger aperture than f/2.8).
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 03:24:50 PM by Edwin Herdman »

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2011, 03:21:05 PM »

shenshaw

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2011, 03:23:04 PM »
Re: price...  The writing is on the wall for prices to continue to rise.  They know that they can lure the cinema folks into paying a premium for "cine" products.  I don't see this newer DSLR concept being less expensive than the 1D-X, but at least the same price.

If the c300 is at $20k (albeit with great features), I predict this new DSLR at $10k (RED Scarlet -ish).  Unfortunately. I wish is was ~$4-5k, but that's dreaming.

Edwin Herdman

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2011, 03:26:40 PM »
Re: price...  The writing is on the wall for prices to continue to rise.  They know that they can lure the cinema folks into paying a premium for "cine" products.
Well, for video pros it probably doesn't seem that prices are rising.  These prices seem in line with other lenses in the same classes.  EF stills lens users who wanted true PL-style ergonomics and optical corrections at EF mount prices were hoping for too much.

DavidRiesenberg

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2011, 03:37:19 PM »
I see the advantages, but damn the Zeiss CP.2 do the same thing and they are almost half the cost.

The CP2s are slower. Take a look at the Arri prime counterparts on the other hand. Simmilar T-stop as the Canons but double the price. So depending on one's point of view, these could be called the bargain of the century. :)

KitH

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2011, 04:00:22 PM »

The CP2s are slower. Take a look at the Arri prime counterparts on the other hand. Simmilar T-stop as the Canons but double the price. So depending on one's point of view, these could be called the bargain of the century. :)

For that sort of money I'd expect the Arri lenses to come with a well-spoken butler to stand beside them and respectfully offer discreet advice upon the delicate subtleties of focusing and T stop, then adjust it for you, whilst wearing white gloves. 

« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 04:11:26 PM by KitH »

seanmcr6

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #65 on: November 04, 2011, 04:09:58 PM »
The 5D is dead.

dilbert

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #66 on: November 04, 2011, 04:30:55 PM »
As the lens is T=2.95-3.7, starting at f/2.8 seems pretty optimistic, however.  There is more glass in the lens than in the 17-55mm f/2.8, to quote the nice example you gave.  f/2.8 seems like a nice starting point, but the f-number could well be closer to the prime lenses which are T 2.6 (and therefore larger aperture than f/2.8).


According to DxOMark, the 17-55/f2.8 has a T-stop rating of 3.4

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Lenses/Camera-Lens-Database/Canon/EF-S-17-55-f-2.8-IS-USM

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #66 on: November 04, 2011, 04:30:55 PM »

Edwin Herdman

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #67 on: November 04, 2011, 04:55:04 PM »
So I read!

Fandongo

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2011, 05:55:11 PM »
But will it blend?

LoL, i would pay to see that.
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Axilrod

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #69 on: November 04, 2011, 06:39:43 PM »
I'm extremely disappointed by this announcement.  These are the features many of us wanted, but they should just be part of the evolution of DSLR.  Canon is forcefully separating camps into (likely highly expensive line of equipment) which really goes directly AGAINST the reason DSLR video had such widespread success in the first place.  Pro-equipment being affordable (or at least with-in reach) in the hands of the masses was largely the point and this seems to miss that entirely.

They just fractured a business model that was working perfectly for them.  I fear they have done something quite so very stupid.  If this doesn't interfere with the natural progression DSLR video was on, then fine, no harm no foul, but only time will tell, and I've smelled this smell before.  It's a distinct smell.

I'm not at all impressed, the 5D Mark III and the 7D Mark II (and probably even the 1DX) should be/have been launched with 4k capability, as it's quite essentially useful for editing 1080p format.  It allows the editor the ability to re-crop and or pan the image and as well use digital image stabilization and then have some room around the frame to crop after stabilizing the content.  Similarly, higher than needed framerates, etc. etc., all things Canon could have been working on and figuring out for our replacement models instead of this....

The sensors on DSLR are already capable of 4k pixel wise, and so are the lenses.  Regardless, I'm going to have to simply ignore all the new products, let Hollywood blow their wad on it, I just hope it doesn't interfere with one of the main reasons I got into Canon DSLR video in the first place.  I'm not happy or excited, in fact I feel kind of used and stupid for playing along.  Time will tell, but if they don't eventually release the features we need on the budgets we have someone else will, and then where will they be?

p.s. I am not going to waste precious budget splitting my photography and film needs across multiple product lines, why do you think I got a DSLR?  Oh and, I'm already sick of the new marketing term "EOS Movie".

This has been your negatively honest announcement for the day, enjoy your breakfast.

You think it's a bad announcement because they didn't announce what you wanted.  They had to start somewhere with their EOS Cinema line, and debuting a camera good enough for Hollywood to use was a good way to establish themselves as major players in the industry.  This is a totally different division of Canon, they had to bring something big out.

We all know they're working on a 4K DSLR, just have some patience and it will come.  Your film-making capabilities are not any less today than they were a week ago.  You can still make something great with a 5D/7D, our time will come soon enough.
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rocketdesigner

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2011, 07:42:37 PM »
Axilrod well said.

+1

sandro

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2011, 10:12:41 PM »
The only thing we should worry about is the natural market consequence, that they're gonna cripple features to make you buy dedicated video camera or in this case high end "cinema" DSLR = expensive!.
Like Sony did, they released the amazing f3/fs100 with amazing real 1080p clean video with outstanding low light capabilities BUT with high end average video resolution (still full of moiré) on the new DSRLs which to me are not worth the upgrade (video-wise).

BTW I really doubt they're ever gonna give 4k as a basic res to a 7d too, just forget it  :-\
I just can't wait to find out my future with Canon :D

coltsfreak18

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2011, 10:59:15 PM »
I forget where, but I did read somewhere, that the new lenses (for sure the primes, but I'm not so sure about the zooms) have 12 rounded aperture blades.  The 50 f/1.2 has 8; thus, this is a different lens design.  It may have the same glass, but it will definitely have smoother bokeh.

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2011, 10:59:15 PM »

Edwin Herdman

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2011, 11:06:05 PM »
It's on the homepage:
Quote
Each lens is equipped with a newly designed 11-blade aperture diaphragm for soft, attractive blur characteristics, making them ideally suited for cinematographic applications.
You can read the entire press release at the CR homepage, or at Canon's website.

bobtur

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2011, 11:40:50 PM »
The camera looks great, however the MPEG II recording codec is still 8-bit which isn't a professional bit rate. It leaves you without any latitude to color correct, a big problem for Canon 5D Mark II users. The good news is that there's an HD-SDI output which will allow you to use a third party 10 or 12-bit recorder.

About the hype that this is a Red Epic or Arri Alexa killer, it isn't. I own the Alexa-Plus and Arriraw, or it's 12-bit 4:4:4 capability, coupled with the camera's 14 stops of latitude ends that argument. The 300 competes more with Red's Scarlet, however at twice the price it may, or may not.

I would love to have the 300 as a second unit camera so I could use my EF lenses, including the 14mm 2.8, 20-35mm, 14mm TS, 85mm 1.2, 135mm 2.0, 400mm 2.8.

Too bad they make you choose between EF and PL mount models because I'd like to be able to use my Master Primes, too.

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2011, 11:40:50 PM »