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Author Topic: Concept Cinema DSLR Official  (Read 22474 times)

DarkKnightNine

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2011, 02:29:03 AM »
When will it sink into Canon's head that the only thing Red Digital Cinema has over them is uncompressed RAW motion capture? Why does Canon keep announcing camera after camera with some idiotic file compression scheme? Now they're thinking Motion JPEG. How about just RAW data over an HD-SDI or Thunderbolt connection?
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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2011, 02:29:03 AM »

DarkKnightNine

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2011, 03:04:11 AM »
So the Scarlet X comes out Nov 17 - PL Mount & Dec 1 - EF Mount.  S35 Sensor. 4k Video 24/25fps 2k video 50/60fps 1k video 120fps.  And $14,000 for a full kit. $9750 for just the body.  So within hours the C300 has become overpriced old technology.

They knew this would happen but I guess they forgot James Jannard was that crazy.  I will buy a Scarlet if he throws in his 1200mm/5.6L.

Edit: 12fps Stills also.


If Canon added RAW video capture to a 1D Mark IV, you'd have your Scarlet X right now. The newly revised Scarlet X is nothing more than an APS-H sized sensor. Red no longer impresses me at all. They're just about marketing hype. The only thing Red does better than Canon is they have the good sense to realize not to use highly compressed codecs that negate the point of shooting with large sensors in the first place. If Canon ever figures that out, they will blow Red out of the water.
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DarkKnightNine

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2011, 03:25:33 AM »
I'm extremely disappointed by this announcement.  These are the features many of us wanted, but they should just be part of the evolution of DSLR.  Canon is forcefully separating camps into (likely highly expensive line of equipment) which really goes directly AGAINST the reason DSLR video had such widespread success in the first place.  Pro-equipment being affordable (or at least with-in reach) in the hands of the masses was largely the point and this seems to miss that entirely.

They just fractured a business model that was working perfectly for them.  I fear they have done something quite so very stupid.  If this doesn't interfere with the natural progression DSLR video was on, then fine, no harm no foul, but only time will tell, and I've smelled this smell before.  It's a distinct smell.

I'm not at all impressed, the 5D Mark III and the 7D Mark II (and probably even the 1DX) should be/have been launched with 4k capability, as it's quite essentially useful for editing 1080p format.  It allows the editor the ability to re-crop and or pan the image and as well use digital image stabilization and then have some room around the frame to crop after stabilizing the content.  Similarly, higher than needed framerates, etc. etc., all things Canon could have been working on and figuring out for our replacement models instead of this....

The sensors on DSLR are already capable of 4k pixel wise, and so are the lenses.  Regardless, I'm going to have to simply ignore all the new products, let Hollywood blow their wad on it, I just hope it doesn't interfere with one of the main reasons I got into Canon DSLR video in the first place.  I'm not happy or excited, in fact I feel kind of used and stupid for playing along.  Time will tell, but if they don't eventually release the features we need on the budgets we have someone else will, and then where will they be?

p.s. I am not going to waste precious budget splitting my photography and film needs across multiple product lines, why do you think I got a DSLR?  Oh and, I'm already sick of the new marketing term "EOS Movie".

This has been your negatively honest announcement for the day, enjoy your breakfast.


Interesting thoughts and I would have to say I agree with you. Greed seems to be the motivation here rather than trying to give creative professionals what they want or need.
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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2011, 09:56:22 AM »
I'm very disappointed about the non-releasing of a 5D mark III. Frustrated by the 8bit C300. Disgusted by the washed out, poorly white balanced and noisy image quality of the last Laforet's video compared to Nocturne and Reverie. And very, very, very Sorry for Scorsese. Ah, last but not least, the surreal price range. If only Canon had really listened properly...What's your take CR? Hope the Canon people are listening because they just released an object to rent not to own: the 5D mark II IQ still beats hands down any competitor.

DarkKnightNine

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2011, 03:42:01 PM »
I'm very disappointed about the non-releasing of a 5D mark III. Frustrated by the 8bit C300. Disgusted by the washed out, poorly white balanced and noisy image quality of the last Laforet's video compared to Nocturne and Reverie. And very, very, very Sorry for Scorsese. Ah, last but not least, the surreal price range. If only Canon had really listened properly...What's your take CR? Hope the Canon people are listening because they just released an object to rent not to own: the 5D mark II IQ still beats hands down any competitor.



You mean any competitor within the 5D Mark II's price range right? Watch Zacuto's latest video shoot of large sensor cameras and I think you'll agree the Alexa's IQ is better but at a huge cost difference over the 5D Mark II. Link here:
Small | Large
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Edwin Herdman

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #80 on: November 05, 2011, 04:15:13 PM »
When will it sink into Canon's head that the only thing Red Digital Cinema has over them is uncompressed RAW motion capture? Why does Canon keep announcing camera after camera with some idiotic file compression scheme? Now they're thinking Motion JPEG. How about just RAW data over an HD-SDI or Thunderbolt connection?
To me, the most apparent difference between these Canon cameras and the RED cameras is in the ergonomics - and size.  To go with uncompressed RAW video they'd probably have to go to hard drives, too.  The RED cameras look much bigger and clumsier to work with but they can't simply record to a couple CF cards.  Keeping that much data moving through the system seems like it would be the cause of much greater battery use and data throughput requirements, as well, because the Canon camera is ditching a fair amount of data with the 4:2:2 chroma compression scheme.

I think your main point stands, but it seems to me that there is a clear tradeoff here between data and mobility (as a result of the extra requirements to do uncompressed capture).

However, Canon is using the DIGIC DV III in the C300, not the newer DIGIC V (or V+).  This may simply be the result of the DIGIC V series not being optimal for video - hard to say as of yet.  I think the next round should be better for Canon, though.
Disgusted by the washed out, poorly white balanced and noisy image quality of the last Laforet's video compared to Nocturne and Reverie.
I didn't see it.  In any case, the short was shot using natural lighting and at ISOs up to 16,000 (or so) - how is that bad performance?  If you can use artificial lights that goes away.  I don't understand the white balance critique at all - there definitely was some color grading but it didn't seem terribly inconsistent (in a jarring way, at least).
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 04:22:43 PM by Edwin Herdman »

MartinvH

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2011, 03:57:38 AM »
I'm very disappointed about the non-releasing of a 5D mark III. Frustrated by the 8bit C300. Disgusted by the washed out, poorly white balanced and noisy image quality of the last Laforet's video compared to Nocturne and Reverie. And very, very, very Sorry for Scorsese. Ah, last but not least, the surreal price range. If only Canon had really listened properly...What's your take CR? Hope the Canon people are listening because they just released an object to rent not to own: the 5D mark II IQ still beats hands down any competitor.



You mean any competitor within the 5D Mark II's price range right? Watch Zacuto's latest video shoot of large sensor cameras and I think you'll agree the Alexa's IQ is better but at a huge cost difference over the 5D Mark II. Link here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIiWStv2ANk


That link to Youtube is great ,thanks for that.
Everybody can learn something from that video no matter if you are a pro or just an amateur.
My conclusion is :In the end its all about the cameraman's capabilities to adapt to  each camera's strongest and weaker points and adapt your shooting because all camera's in this test are good.

Part 2
Small | Large

Part 3
Small | Large



« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 05:42:09 AM by MartinvH »

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2011, 03:57:38 AM »

dilbert

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2011, 11:49:02 AM »
I'm very disappointed about the non-releasing of a 5D mark III. Frustrated by the 8bit C300. Disgusted by the washed out, poorly white balanced and noisy image quality of the last Laforet's video compared to Nocturne and Reverie. And very, very, very Sorry for Scorsese. Ah, last but not least, the surreal price range. If only Canon had really listened properly...What's your take CR? Hope the Canon people are listening because they just released an object to rent not to own: the 5D mark II IQ still beats hands down any competitor.



You mean any competitor within the 5D Mark II's price range right? Watch Zacuto's latest video shoot of large sensor cameras and I think you'll agree the Alexa's IQ is better but at a huge cost difference over the 5D Mark II. Link here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIiWStv2ANk


That link to Youtube is great ,thanks for that.
Everybody can learn something from that video no matter if you are a pro or just an amateur.
My conclusion is :In the end its all about the cameraman's capabilities to adapt to  each camera's strongest and weaker points and adapt your shooting because all camera's in this test are good.

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcDYdaZs6Kc&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2FAAuRr0hg&feature=related


Those videos are going to be out of date a year after their making when the C300s and new REDs are available.

RichST

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #83 on: November 07, 2011, 01:48:12 PM »

If Canon added RAW video capture to a 1D Mark IV, you'd have your Scarlet X right now

No, not by a long shot, the 1DIV (or 5DII) are throwing away huge amounts of data to generate their video. Their resolution will never be up to cameras that use full sensor scans to generate video. Canon's cinema DSLR will finally do it "right". I think the reason they're going with motion-jpeg is because h.264 doesn't support 4K if I read the specs right. Raw would be great if the thing had a Thunderbolt port but Canon won't be doing that because um, ummm, mmmm, hmmm, errrrrrr......

dilbert

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #84 on: November 07, 2011, 02:16:24 PM »

If Canon added RAW video capture to a 1D Mark IV, you'd have your Scarlet X right now

No, not by a long shot, the 1DIV (or 5DII) are throwing away huge amounts of data to generate their video. Their resolution will never be up to cameras that use full sensor scans to generate video. Canon's cinema DSLR will finally do it "right". I think the reason they're going with motion-jpeg is because h.264 doesn't support 4K if I read the specs right. Raw would be great if the thing had a Thunderbolt port but Canon won't be doing that because um, ummm, mmmm, hmmm, errrrrrr......

How much extra would you pay to have a Thunderbolt port on your camera?

dr croubie

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #85 on: November 07, 2011, 04:54:13 PM »
How much extra would you pay to have a Thunderbolt port on your camera?

Given that it's an Apple product, you'd have to be paying Apple licensing fees. I'd rather save the cash and buy another lens or two with that money.

Is eSATA not fast enough? SAS-600? Ultra-640 SCSI? external PCIexpress? ieee 1394-3200? Fibre-channel?

Or maybe just wait until Camrea Link gets widely adopted...
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caruser

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #86 on: November 07, 2011, 06:13:47 PM »
How much extra would you pay to have a Thunderbolt port on your camera?

Given that it's an Apple product, you'd have to be paying Apple licensing fees.

Thunderbolt ist Intel, not Apple.

samueljay

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #87 on: November 07, 2011, 06:21:50 PM »
To me, the most apparent difference between these Canon cameras and the RED cameras is in the ergonomics - and size.  To go with uncompressed RAW video they'd probably have to go to hard drives, too.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I had a feeling to do uncompressed RAW video it would be over SDI, and wouldn't be using memory cards or hard drives linked to a camera at all? Something along the lines of a capture device?
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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #87 on: November 07, 2011, 06:21:50 PM »

dr croubie

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #88 on: November 07, 2011, 06:30:35 PM »
Thunderbolt ist Intel, not Apple.

Well when I first heard about it, it was apple, and only Macs actually use it thus far. But yeah, now it's registered with intel, so there's hope that it won't be too much of a licensing slog.

Still, Thunderbolt is only a way of combining displayport and PCIe on one cable. They can just as easily use an external PCIe connector (although granted, there's likely to be more (and therefore cheaper) thunderbolt-compatible storage-solutions).
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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #89 on: November 09, 2011, 04:42:26 AM »
If Canon added RAW video capture to a 1D Mark IV, you'd have your Scarlet X right now. The newly revised Scarlet X is nothing more than an APS-H sized sensor. Red no longer impresses me at all. They're just about marketing hype. The only thing Red does better than Canon is they have the good sense to realize not to use highly compressed codecs that negate the point of shooting with large sensors in the first place. If Canon ever figures that out, they will blow Red out of the water.


Don't forget the other things that RED does really well.

Such as drop frames.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63113-Dropped-Frames-with-Epic
http://www.stadamedia.co.uk/dannylaceyfilm/2011/11/major-technical-issues-with-footage-from-host-video-blog-update/
Yes, i shoot video on a DSLR.

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Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
« Reply #89 on: November 09, 2011, 04:42:26 AM »