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Author Topic: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October  (Read 59862 times)

AcutancePhotography

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #120 on: April 24, 2014, 12:30:09 PM »
Well this has turned out to be an interesting thread.   :o

Yikes you guys get spun up over things.
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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #120 on: April 24, 2014, 12:30:09 PM »

EchoLocation

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #121 on: April 24, 2014, 09:39:09 PM »
It does not bother you a bit that (according to YOU) Canon has not updated 50mm for >20 years?
Nope, but then 1) I have no interest in the 50/1.4 or 50/1.8 II, and 2) if I were to buy a 50mm lens it would be the 50/1.2L which was released 8 years ago, in 2006.

Having said that, the design age of the 50/1.8 II and 50/1.4 certainly don't seem to bother the buyers on Amazon.com, where the Canon 50/1.8 II is the #1 selling lens and the Canon 50/1.4 is the #3 selling lens.  You need to go to #36 on their Top 100 list to find the first Sigma lens, and the Sigma 35mm f/1.4 Art isn't on the list at all.
You sound like a broken record. We all know that Canon is the number one seller blah blah blah....
i'm assuming you consider McDonalds, Subway and Applebee's to be 3 of the best restaurants in America and Iron Man III to be the best movie of 2013?
Profit is one indicator of success, but it is far from being the end all be all of it. While you might be happy with simply owning the system that sells the most, that is far from my main requirement for my camera system.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #122 on: April 24, 2014, 10:49:59 PM »
You sound like a broken record.

And yet you seem to feel the need to respond, frequently.  Get some earplugs, or a blindfold, or whatever. 

While you might be happy with simply owning the system that sells the most, that is far from my main requirement for my camera system.

I own the system that best meets my needs…that's my main requirement.  The fact that Canon is the market leader indicates that a majority of photographers feel that Canon provides the system that best meets their needs.  Hopefully you own whatever system best meets your needs.  Does it bother you if that system is not Canon, that you are in the minority? 

I understand that you apparently don't care about sales figures, or don't think they are relevant.  From a personal/selfish standpoint, they aren't.  But if someone is wondering why Canon hasn't felt the need to update a couple of lenses for >20 years, or is complaining about that fact, or wishing it wil change soon, the fact that those two lenses are among the most popular lenses is one very significant reason that Canon has not felt the need to update them.  So whether sales figures matter to you or not, they matter to Canon, they drive the business decisions that Canon makes, and those decisions determine the products that Canon ultimately makes available to consumers. 

Oh, and guess what?  Sales figures also impact the business decisions being made by whatever brand meets your camera system needs, too.

Forgot to add...I don't eat at any of those restaurants you mentioned.  However, one of my favorite local restaurants went out of business a while back, and now there's an Applebee's in that location.  Sales matter.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 11:03:03 PM by neuroanatomist »
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traingineer

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #123 on: April 24, 2014, 11:03:39 PM »
As much as I would like to see a pay per view fight between photogs, maybe we should step back and take a breath.

This could give us a chance on testing AI servo speed and accuracy on our lenses/DSLRs. (° ͜ʖ°)

Albi86

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #124 on: April 25, 2014, 05:13:30 AM »


Oh, and guess what?  Sales figures also impact the business decisions being made by whatever brand meets your camera system needs, too.



I think you're flipping the pancake a bit.

Sales do matter in terms of determining the business decisions of a company. We however are the end users, not the company. To us it can be nice to know why they did this or that, but ultimately it is a very academic interest. Sales figures do not affect our experience once the product is in our hands and do not improve our output or our enjoyment. The first rule of statistics is that it never applies to individual cases.

In the end of the day, I don't really care whether Canon feels the need to update this or that. My money is supposed to be spent on fulfilling my needs, not Canon's. If their products are good I buy them, otherwise I don't and it doesn't really matter if other people think they're good for them. If I have to choose, I'd rather be a quality minority than a trivial majority, yes.

That said, this point is a particularly moot one when it comes to OEM vs 3rd party offers. The reason why the Canon 50mm sells well is that it's Canon's offer in the 50mm range and it's affordable. The real quality of the product matters only to a little extent, since most buyers do not make a lot research ahead of purchasing. Buying a Canon lens for your Canon camera is a very trivial and uninteresting event; preferring a Sigma lens for your Canon camera is instead a choice with significant implications.

Anyway this isn't even a criticism to the Canon system, since 3rd party offering are part of, and not against, the Canon system.

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #125 on: April 25, 2014, 08:06:36 AM »
A 24 mm 1.4? And a possible 135mm f/1.8 IS? I never thought a day would arrive where I could switch completely to sigma primes.

AcutancePhotography

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #126 on: April 25, 2014, 08:18:22 AM »
A 24 mm 1.4? And a possible 135mm f/1.8 IS? I never thought a day would arrive where I could switch completely to sigma primes.

I think there are many of us thinking the same thing.  These Sigma Art lenses are coming out at just the right time for me as I am slowly rebuilding my lens kit.

A fast 135mm Art quality lens will be very interesting.

I don't know if I will ever go all Sigma, but so far I have been happy with my new Sigma primes.

Competition will be a good thing for the customer. Canikon better start gettin' busy.
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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #126 on: April 25, 2014, 08:18:22 AM »

roguewave

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #127 on: April 25, 2014, 11:07:35 AM »
Oh, and guess what?  Sales figures also impact the business decisions being made by whatever brand meets your camera system needs, too.

I think you're flipping the pancake a bit.

Sales do matter in terms of determining the business decisions of a company. We however are the end users, not the company. To us it can be nice to know why they did this or that, but ultimately it is a very academic interest. Sales figures do not affect our experience once the product is in our hands and do not improve our output or our enjoyment. The first rule of statistics is that it never applies to individual cases.

In the end of the day, I don't really care whether Canon feels the need to update this or that. My money is supposed to be spent on fulfilling my needs, not Canon's. If their products are good I buy them, otherwise I don't and it doesn't really matter if other people think they're good for them. If I have to choose, I'd rather be a quality minority than a trivial majority, yes.

...

Absolutely. The explanation that Canon does not update their lenses for > 20 years because the market lets them get away with it is logically correct, but not particularly satisfying for those end users, whose needs aren't completely met.

It's like your kid saying the reason he hasn't been doing his homework is because he can get away with it by copying his friend's solution... a valid explanation, but probably not one you want to hear.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #128 on: April 25, 2014, 02:04:36 PM »
Absolutely. The explanation that Canon does not update their lenses for > 20 years because the market lets them get away with it is logically correct, but not particularly satisfying for those end users, whose needs aren't completely met.

It's like your kid saying the reason he hasn't been doing his homework is because he can get away with it by copying his friend's solution... a valid explanation, but probably not one you want to hear.

Your analogy makes it sound like you'd prefer to not hear the truth.  The truth in the case of the Canon 50mm f/1.8 and f/1.4 lenses is that, "those end users, whose needs aren't completely met," represent the minority of buyers (at least, who's needs are met sufficiently to result in a purchase).  Keep in mind that affordable is a big need for many buyers.

If you don't like what Canon, or any vendor, offers...don't buy.  That's what I do.  Where I take issue is when people suggest that Canon must do this or that to remain competitive, just because that individual's needs aren't being met.   To suggest that Canon needs to update their 50mm lenses to compete with the Sigma 50/1.4 A is illogical.  Of the Canon lenses, one is ~1/2-stop faster with weather sealing and a renowned bokeh (and frankly is a niche lens anyway) and the other two are 1/2 and 1/8 the cost of the Sigma, and will easily outsell it.
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sdsr

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #129 on: April 25, 2014, 03:29:01 PM »

The explanation that Canon does not update their lenses for > 20 years because the market lets them get away with it is logically correct, but not particularly satisfying for those end users, whose needs aren't completely met.


It's presumably true that anyone who wants to buy Brand X's products is disappointed if Brand X doesn't have a model that does what s/he wants, but it's a fairly trivial observation, isn't it? 

A year or two back Roger Cicala at lensrentals compared a raft of fast 50mm lenses and most respects (that he tested, at least), the old Canon 50mm 1.4 did at least as well as any other, perhaps better (I forget all the details), regardless of price.  I may be wrong, but I don't think it's possible to buy a current-production 50mm 1.4 AF lens for as little the price of the Canon 1.4 ($400 new, assuming no discount) that's better, regardless of who makes it.  If Canon upgraded it, it doesn't seem unlikely that the price would double, and Canon's most recent prime upgrades (24 IS 28 IS and 35 IS) were not only much more expensive than their predecessors but not terribly fast anyway (2.8, 2.8 and 2 respectively).  Chances that Canon would release a new 50mm 1.4 for $400 which meets the needs of picky consumers rather than those who buy most of Canon's lenses seem pretty remote. 

And if Canon can't meet your needs, assuming the reported AF inconsistencies with the new Sigma are exaggerated, and assuming you don't mind paying $900 for it, you can just buy the Sigma and still use it on your Canon bodies.  Or you could do something a little different and, say, supplement your Canon gear with a Sony A7r + 55mm 1.8 (which costs the same as the Sigma), like I recently did, and get image quality that I suspect is better than the Sigma will give you on any current Canon body (provided you don't mind the limitations of the Sony body).

So I'm not really sure what all the fuss is about - unless it's annoyance that the home team (Canon) doesn't have all the best players.  If other companies made recently upgraded 50mm 1.4 lenses that out-performed the Canon while costing the same, this general complaint would make more sense.  But I don't think they do.

brad-man

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #130 on: April 25, 2014, 05:24:56 PM »
Well, the days of Canon/Nikon taking their own sweet time to update lenses is likely drawing to a close. They could get away with that before, since there was no real competition. Sigma and Tamron have not been taken too seriously by most enthusiasts/professionals for their inconsistencies in build quality, autofocus or whatever. This information would filter down to the average consumer, causing them to stick with OEM products unless budget restraints were critical. If this current rise in quality is sustained and not just a momentary aberration, this too will become well known and no company will be able to rest on their laurels. This is of coarse good for all consumers. The fact that Sigma is not just meeting, but improving over the OEM brands for significantly less money is amazing. For now, it is just in their high end models. I wonder if Sigma will be able to compete in the lower end of the market as well. That will really make Nikon and Canon take notice.

To steal a line from a previously mentioned "restaurant", I'm lovin' it!

sanj

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #131 on: April 26, 2014, 12:06:31 AM »
Well, the days of Canon/Nikon taking their own sweet time to update lenses is likely drawing to a close. They could get away with that before, since there was no real competition. Sigma and Tamron have not been taken too seriously by most enthusiasts/professionals for their inconsistencies in build quality, autofocus or whatever. This information would filter down to the average consumer, causing them to stick with OEM products unless budget restraints were critical. If this current rise in quality is sustained and not just a momentary aberration, this too will become well known and no company will be able to rest on their laurels. This is of coarse good for all consumers. The fact that Sigma is not just meeting, but improving over the OEM brands for significantly less money is amazing. For now, it is just in their high end models. I wonder if Sigma will be able to compete in the lower end of the market as well. That will really make Nikon and Canon take notice.

To steal a line from a previously mentioned "restaurant", I'm lovin' it!

Me too!! Lovin' it.

privatebydesign

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #132 on: April 26, 2014, 12:21:43 AM »
Well, the days of Canon/Nikon taking their own sweet time to update lenses is likely drawing to a close. They could get away with that before, since there was no real competition. Sigma and Tamron have not been taken too seriously by most enthusiasts/professionals for their inconsistencies in build quality, autofocus or whatever. This information would filter down to the average consumer, causing them to stick with OEM products unless budget restraints were critical. If this current rise in quality is sustained and not just a momentary aberration, this too will become well known and no company will be able to rest on their laurels. This is of coarse good for all consumers. The fact that Sigma is not just meeting, but improving over the OEM brands for significantly less money is amazing. For now, it is just in their high end models. I wonder if Sigma will be able to compete in the lower end of the market as well. That will really make Nikon and Canon take notice.

To steal a line from a previously mentioned "restaurant", I'm lovin' it!

I think you fundamentally don't get Canon's position. They are a multi billion dollar international corporation and are not overly interested in selling tens of thousands of lenses, they are into selling millions of cameras. Now the P&S cash cow is drying up they are repositioning into the C line, which is probably the only thing keeping any R&D going for us high end body stills shooters, and surveillance cameras hence the ultra low light sensor video R&D etc. They don't see Sigma or Tamron as competition because they aren't, they are comparatively small companies that sell limited quantities of niche products that you need a Canon (or Nikon) product to use, just like ThinkTank, or Adobe.

Too often we lose sight of the fact that photography is about capturing light, if we have the ability to take control of that light then we grow exponentially as photographers. More often than not the image is not about lens speed, sensor size, DR, MP's or AF, it is about the light.

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #132 on: April 26, 2014, 12:21:43 AM »

sanj

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #133 on: April 26, 2014, 02:59:34 AM »
Well, the days of Canon/Nikon taking their own sweet time to update lenses is likely drawing to a close. They could get away with that before, since there was no real competition. Sigma and Tamron have not been taken too seriously by most enthusiasts/professionals for their inconsistencies in build quality, autofocus or whatever. This information would filter down to the average consumer, causing them to stick with OEM products unless budget restraints were critical. If this current rise in quality is sustained and not just a momentary aberration, this too will become well known and no company will be able to rest on their laurels. This is of coarse good for all consumers. The fact that Sigma is not just meeting, but improving over the OEM brands for significantly less money is amazing. For now, it is just in their high end models. I wonder if Sigma will be able to compete in the lower end of the market as well. That will really make Nikon and Canon take notice.

To steal a line from a previously mentioned "restaurant", I'm lovin' it!

I think you fundamentally don't get Canon's position. They are a multi billion dollar international corporation and are not overly interested in selling tens of thousands of lenses, they are into selling millions of cameras. Now the P&S cash cow is drying up they are repositioning into the C line, which is probably the only thing keeping any R&D going for us high end body stills shooters, and surveillance cameras hence the ultra low light sensor video R&D etc. They don't see Sigma or Tamron as competition because they aren't, they are comparatively small companies that sell limited quantities of niche products that you need a Canon (or Nikon) product to use, just like ThinkTank, or Adobe.

Where could I read more to get a better idea about Canon's fundamental position please?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 05:28:26 AM by sanj »

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #134 on: April 26, 2014, 03:57:18 AM »
Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but if Sigma are able to give a 24 mm focal length the edge of frame resolution at 1.4-2 that they have achieved in the 35 + 50 Art line ( much more difficult at 24mm I know), then it would actually be a more significant lens to a much larger audience because as the 24mm has a much greater dof, it would be practical to use it at say 2.8 to achieve adequate dof in low light, allowing landscape shooting at lower ISO's and faster shutter speeds in low light, with little vignette.

I think if this was the case we would see a response from Canon in a 24/1.4 III

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Re: Sigma 24mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Coming in October
« Reply #134 on: April 26, 2014, 03:57:18 AM »