September 23, 2014, 06:48:15 PM

Author Topic: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]  (Read 10129 times)

bereninga

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 57
    • View Profile
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2014, 09:46:14 AM »
FF mirrorless + 3-4 pancake lenses to start with: 35,50, 85, and 18mm

Omg, this would be ridiculously amazing.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2014, 09:46:14 AM »

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14473
    • View Profile
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2014, 09:51:37 AM »
Well there you go! The reason the 7D2 has been delayed so long is that it will be a full frame mirrorless dual pixel quad pixel fovenon big megapixel camera with a 1DX build in an EOS-M package.... that will shoot at ISO 819,200 and take 8K video.....

…and cost $1399.   :P
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

sanj

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1502
    • View Profile
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2014, 09:51:41 AM »
Hallelujah

dilbert

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2949
    • View Profile
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2014, 09:51:50 AM »
"We’re told by a new source that a new generation of full-frame CMOS sensors slated for both a forthcoming mirrorless camera as well as updated versions of the current range of prosumer DLSR models."

So the first thing that comes to mind is that this does not mention professional (1D range, etc) DSLR models.

Thus either this rumor is a hoax (why would Canon not want to reduce the cost of sensors made for the top end?) or there is a sacrifice in sensor IQ being made in exchange for something else (DPAF maybe?)

whothafunk

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2014, 09:52:11 AM »

…and cost $1399.   :P
ok, now you're just being silly.
Canon 70D -- Canon 550D -- Canon 8-15L f4 Fisheye USM -- Canon 70-200L f2.8 IS USM II -- Canon 17-55 f2.8 IS USM

traveller

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 657
    • View Profile
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2014, 09:58:53 AM »
Not sure this can even be answered yet but if Canon came out with a full frame EOS-M version, would they need to change to a new lens mount as well? Could the EF-M still be used?

EF- M mount can't be used for FF unfortunately. Too small. Likely they'd create a mirrorless camera with the regular EF mount instead.

This is widely stated, but I can't see that the EF-M mount is much different in dimensions to the Sony E mount; I know that E mount is tight for full frame, but it is still possible. I'm struggling to find the technical specifications, but here's a comparison (assuming the scaling is correct) -measure for yourself:

http://camerasize.com/compact/#487,351,325,466,459,ha,f

EF-M is pretty similar to E-mount in its internal diameter and a bit larger than either X-mount or micro 4/3rds. We also know that the flange back distance is the same as E-mount (18mm, vs 44mm for regular EF).

I'm not saying that this proves EF-M is compatible with full frame sensors, nor that Canon would have any near term plans to produce a full frame mirrorless camera if it were, but it would be a bit strange if they happened to make it so similar in size to E-mount and it not be FF capable. They must have had some idea that Sony were interested in making a FF E-mount camera. I believe that FF probably is possible with EF-M mount, if nothing else then to cover that base for the future. Of course, Canon would never admit that now whilst it is still trying to push their FF DSLRs!

As for a mirrorless camera with an EF mount: it's possible but not with a reduced flange back distance, or they'd create all sorts of lens compatibility confusion!

traveller

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 657
    • View Profile
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2014, 10:13:10 AM »
Thus either this rumor is a hoax (why would Canon not want to reduce the cost of sensors made for the top end?)...

Can I flip this around: why would the top end be the priority for reducing production costs? Surely the margins are tighter at the bottom? Besides, I can't think of why a new production technology that improves yield wouldn't equally benefit APS-C sized sensor production costs.

I think that this whole rumour is based upon the "all cameras will be  full frame in the future" fallacy that we're now meant to buy into. If Canon are experiencing pressure from mirrorless in the APS-C market, then it's lenses that are more to blame than camera bodies.

So I think your first proposition is probably more correct:

Thus either this rumor is a hoax...


 ;)

canon rumors FORUM

Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2014, 10:13:10 AM »

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14473
    • View Profile
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2014, 10:16:45 AM »
Not sure this can even be answered yet but if Canon came out with a full frame EOS-M version, would they need to change to a new lens mount as well? Could the EF-M still be used?

EF- M mount can't be used for FF unfortunately. Too small. Likely they'd create a mirrorless camera with the regular EF mount instead.

This is widely stated, but I can't see that the EF-M mount is much different in dimensions to the Sony E mount; I know that E mount is tight for full frame, but it is still possible. I'm struggling to find the technical specifications, but here's a comparison (assuming the scaling is correct) -measure for yourself:

http://camerasize.com/compact/#487,351,325,466,459,ha,f

EF-M is pretty similar to E-mount in its internal diameter and a bit larger than either X-mount or micro 4/3rds. We also know that the flange back distance is the same as E-mount (18mm, vs 44mm for regular EF).

I'm not saying that this proves EF-M is compatible with full frame sensors, nor that Canon would have any near term plans to produce a full frame mirrorless camera if it were, but it would be a bit strange if they happened to make it so similar in size to E-mount and it not be FF capable. They must have had some idea that Sony were interested in making a FF E-mount camera. I believe that FF probably is possible with EF-M mount, if nothing else then to cover that base for the future. Of course, Canon would never admit that now whilst it is still trying to push their FF DSLRs!

As for a mirrorless camera with an EF mount: it's possible but not with a reduced flange back distance, or they'd create all sorts of lens compatibility confusion!

According to Canon's full frame white paper, the diagonal measurement of a FF sensor is 43.3mm  The measured inner diameter of the lens mount opening on the EOS M, accounting for the bayonet protrusions, is 43mm.  For comparison, the measured inner diameter for the EF mount opening is 51mm.

Having said that, the Sony a7 mount opening appears to 'clip the corners' of the sensor, and is quite similar in size to the EOS M's opening.
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

mclaren777

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2014, 10:18:41 AM »
If they were able to match (or possibly even surpass Sony's current sensors) I would buy a 5D Mark IV in a heartbeat!

unfocused

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2109
    • View Profile
    • Unfocused: A photo website
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2014, 10:22:50 AM »
Before people get too excited, they might want to re-read this CR-1 rumor.

It is focused on improvements in manufacturing technology to increase yields and reduce costs. Aside from a glancing mention of "Foveon Like" technology (whatever that is supposed to mean), this is all about reducing costs of production, not about any change in the performance of sensors.

That's not to say it isn't important or beneficial to consumers, just that the benefits are more likely to come in some combination of lower costs and better margins.
pictures sharp. life not so much. www.unfocusedmg.com

kaihp

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 295
    • View Profile
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2014, 10:28:30 AM »
Thus either this rumor is a hoax (why would Canon not want to reduce the cost of sensors made for the top end?)...

Can I flip this around: why would the top end be the priority for reducing production costs? Surely the margins are tighter at the bottom?

I believe that you're thinking it wrong: ANY reduced manufacturing costs goes straight to the bottom line.

Sure, the lower end has a higher volume, but sometimes it is easier to reduce costs at the high end simply because people didn't bother too much about cost, with the argument that "it's high end, so our focus is quality, not cost", which ends up in a circular argument resulting in high cost.

Believe me, I speak from experience (sigh).

sdsr

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 682
    • View Profile
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2014, 10:58:28 AM »
FF mirrorless + 3-4 pancake lenses to start with: 35,50, 85, and 18mm

Omg, this would be ridiculously amazing.

Yes, especially if it has good IBIS.  I don't think I'll hold my breath, though....

Zv

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1242
    • View Profile
    • Zeeography (flickr)
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2014, 11:04:27 AM »
Not sure this can even be answered yet but if Canon came out with a full frame EOS-M version, would they need to change to a new lens mount as well? Could the EF-M still be used?

EF- M mount can't be used for FF unfortunately. Too small. Likely they'd create a mirrorless camera with the regular EF mount instead.

This is widely stated, but I can't see that the EF-M mount is much different in dimensions to the Sony E mount; I know that E mount is tight for full frame, but it is still possible. I'm struggling to find the technical specifications, but here's a comparison (assuming the scaling is correct) -measure for yourself:

http://camerasize.com/compact/#487,351,325,466,459,ha,f

EF-M is pretty similar to E-mount in its internal diameter and a bit larger than either X-mount or micro 4/3rds. We also know that the flange back distance is the same as E-mount (18mm, vs 44mm for regular EF).

I'm not saying that this proves EF-M is compatible with full frame sensors, nor that Canon would have any near term plans to produce a full frame mirrorless camera if it were, but it would be a bit strange if they happened to make it so similar in size to E-mount and it not be FF capable. They must have had some idea that Sony were interested in making a FF E-mount camera. I believe that FF probably is possible with EF-M mount, if nothing else then to cover that base for the future. Of course, Canon would never admit that now whilst it is still trying to push their FF DSLRs!

As for a mirrorless camera with an EF mount: it's possible but not with a reduced flange back distance, or they'd create all sorts of lens compatibility confusion!

According to Canon's full frame white paper, the diagonal measurement of a FF sensor is 43.3mm  The measured inner diameter of the lens mount opening on the EOS M, accounting for the bayonet protrusions, is 43mm.  For comparison, the measured inner diameter for the EF mount opening is 51mm.

Having said that, the Sony a7 mount opening appears to 'clip the corners' of the sensor, and is quite similar in size to the EOS M's opening.

So with the Sony a7r, do the clipped corners affect the image in anyway? Surely not since no one has reported black corners. How does that work then? Is the entire sensor area not used then? That would mean in reality a sensor size slightly smaller than FF, prob negligible though overall?

If that's the case then perhaps a FF sensor could be squeezed into the M mount then with a tiny bit of cropping. Or Canon could make a completely new sensor that is almost FF in size and fits perfectly (seems unlikely in terms of maximizing profits).
5D II | 17-40L | 24-105L | 70-200 f4L IS | 135L | SY 14 2.8 | Sigma 50 1.4

EOS M | 11-22 IS STM | 22 STM | FD 50 1.4

canon rumors FORUM

Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2014, 11:04:27 AM »

traveller

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 657
    • View Profile
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2014, 11:11:07 AM »
Thus either this rumor is a hoax (why would Canon not want to reduce the cost of sensors made for the top end?)...

Can I flip this around: why would the top end be the priority for reducing production costs? Surely the margins are tighter at the bottom?

I believe that you're thinking it wrong: ANY reduced manufacturing costs goes straight to the bottom line.

Sure, the lower end has a higher volume, but sometimes it is easier to reduce costs at the high end simply because people didn't bother too much about cost, with the argument that "it's high end, so our focus is quality, not cost", which ends up in a circular argument resulting in high cost.

Believe me, I speak from experience (sigh).

1. What yield improvement were you thinking of that is of no benefit to APS-C sized sensors?

2. If it is of benefit to APS-C sized sensors, why apply it only to full frame sensors? Surely you apply the technology that improves yield to the production line that has the highest production levels (i.e. APS-C), not the one with the lowest?

AvTvM

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 957
    • View Profile
Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2014, 11:18:43 AM »
Well there you go! The reason the 7D2 has been delayed so long is that it will be a full frame mirrorless dual pixel quad pixel fovenon big megapixel camera with a 1DX build in an EOS-M package.... that will shoot at ISO 819,200 and take 8K video.....

sounds good. except for the video bit, which I don't care for.  :P ;D

canon rumors FORUM

Re: New Sensor Technology Coming From Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2014, 11:18:43 AM »