December 09, 2016, 12:57:01 AM

Author Topic: Cinema EOS Development Opinion  (Read 15366 times)

bsbeamer

  • Rebel T6i
  • ****
  • Posts: 147
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2011, 03:28:29 PM »
If you've done your homework and planned out the shoot for your project properly, then you will know on which days you need which lenses and you will rent lenses accordingly, rather than buy.

I guess you've never been on location with clients who have last minute changes to everything?  Or a director who wants to get a few other "angles" in addition to the 50mm shot?  That concept works well in theory, but not in practice, unless you're renting an entire set of lenses for an entire shoot - and even then, I've had additional days tacked onto the end of a shoot because the client wanted to get some extra b-roll or scheduled another interview, or something... Unfortunately mid-range clients these days want it all.  Unless you can serve it up with a smile, then they'll find someone else to do it for cheaper.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2011, 03:28:29 PM »

bsbeamer

  • Rebel T6i
  • ****
  • Posts: 147
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2011, 03:52:11 PM »
For those that don't know, T-stop is another method of measuring the aperture while compensating for light loss.  It is commonly used on cinema lenses. 
This thread explains it all quite well: http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=882

One main benefit of these cinema style lenses is a smooth aperture adjustment and smooth focus adjustment.  They typically don't have hard "stops" and can (usually) easily go to a 1/3 or 1/2 stop increments between the markings which makes them able to "pull" focus or aperture during a shot.  Among other things, the new Canon cinema prime lenses appear to be much "faster" than the current Zeiss CP series.  They seem to be more on par with the RED series of primes, but until they're put into use and tested on the same camera in the same conditions, it will be hard to figure out the real difference.

Old used PL mount lenses still fetch a huge price tag on the used market, so anything more modern will absolutely hold its value for years to come.  Wouldn't expect to see any "cheap" Zeiss CP's or Cooke's out there anytime soon, unless either of them come up with a budget line to compete with Canon, RED, and themselves.

pedro

  • 5DSR
  • *******
  • Posts: 1008
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2011, 03:56:43 PM »
CRguy wrote:

"What about photographers?

I know a good majority of photographers are pretty tired about hearing about video in DSLRs. A lot of the community is looking for a new “photography first” full frame DSLR that doesn’t require remortgaging their homes. I think the 5D Mark III will be that camera. It’ll probably have video features on par with the 1D X, but will be a high resolution, high image quality still photography camera

I’ve said before that I think Canon plans to monetize the videographers and video DSLRs, so something like the “EOS 3C” makes a lot of sense. Â Looking at the prices of the new cinema lenses, it seems videographers have no problem spending more.

So don’t be worried photographers, Canon hasn’t forgotten about you and I’m sure will deliver the product we all know you want."

Well, that is just what I wanted to hear after all that video whirlwind from Hollywood.
Looking forward to it. Don't care if the 5Diii won't materialize in 2012.
I rather have a happy 2013 with an upgraded still photography body  8)

Que la pases vakán en Mexico, varón.
EF-S 10-22/ 6D, Samyang 14 F/2.8, 28 F/2.8, 50 F/1.4, 85 F/1.8, 70-200 F/2.8 classic, Canon G7x powershot
join me at http://www.flickr.com/groups/insane_isos/

gene_can_sing

  • Guest
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2011, 06:03:23 PM »
Hearing all the photogs complain about the upcoming DSLR / Video hybrid and not having a true, photo only 5D3; I can't help but think of the irony.

I'm pretty certain the Video DSLR is going to be a lower megapixel stills camera (probably around 12mp since that the ideal for good 4K). The sensors in the video DSLR will probably be the same as the upcoming 5D3 which will be huge megapixel (36 mp to match Nikon).

But a 12mp is going to take much better photos because lower megapixles translates to better ISO / noise performance, especially verses a camera with 3 times the megapixels.

So the DSLR hybrid camera will probably be a better stills camera than the upcoming 5D3 for photogs. But yes, probably not ideal for poster sized prints. But how often do you really make those anyways?

So with the DSLR video hybrid, you will get a better photo camera and a better video camera, just not huge megapixel.

pedro

  • 5DSR
  • *******
  • Posts: 1008
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2011, 08:27:02 PM »
@gene_can_sing:
Having read several of your posts in the past, there is something about it.
Let us just hope that canon will aim to beat nikon by IQ instead of MP.
given the new sensor technique introduced by the 1Dx and the trend set at lower MP's
lets hope for a 5Diii at 24 MP then.
I'd be very happy if they were following their new outline MP wise...
I am an absolute non tech, but I dare to say,
with the 1Dx in mind they will even get improved IQ
at 24 to 28 MP.
Or is that too much of wishful thinking?
EF-S 10-22/ 6D, Samyang 14 F/2.8, 28 F/2.8, 50 F/1.4, 85 F/1.8, 70-200 F/2.8 classic, Canon G7x powershot
join me at http://www.flickr.com/groups/insane_isos/

JR

  • 5DSR
  • *******
  • Posts: 1229
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2011, 09:13:25 PM »
Well, I really do hope the hybrid camera coming up will give us all this.  One thing for sure from a marketing perspective, the video aspect is giving Canon an excuse to go to a lower MP camera architecture and not loose face.  Remember they have made a point for a long time that MP is important, so you cant all of a sudden change your mind (well you can but for a corporation you need to play with this image carefully).

I think for Canon branding the next few move are critical but are likely very well planned, and it is likely not without reason that we have yet to ear about the 5D II replacement.  They are just not there yet in there chess game.  My two cents...
1DX, 24mm f1.4L II, 35mm f1.4L, 50mm f1.2L, 85mm f1.2L II, 135mm f2L, 24-70mm f2.8L II, 70-200mm f2.8L IS II :  D800, D4, and a whole bunch of Nikon lenses

AG

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 286
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2011, 12:39:43 AM »
Quote
Looking at the prices of the new cinema lenses, it seems videographers have no problem spending more.

Just because Canon is pricing the new lenses at $45-48k for the zooms and $6,800 for EACH of the primes doesn't mean the video community can readily afford these products.  At those steep prices, I'd have to have a huge project with an intense need in order to justify that expense.  With most of the low and restricted mid range budgets these days, I have a feeling that many will be sticking with their current lens lineup for awhile to come.

Firstly unless you are working in a film production house or television studio, the zoom lenses are not marketed at yourself.

And the Primes with their MSRT of $6800 is not that bad, especially when you take into consideration that this is not street price.
How many amateur photographers do you see walking around with a Sigma 200-500? (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/551435-REG/Sigma_597101_200_500mm_f_2_8_EX_DG.html)
Ok i understand that its a $25,000 lens but its also not something that the average Joe will want for his kit.

The same goes for these lenses, they are aimed at the semi pro/advanced amateur videographer, that is using EOS equipment and wants to take it a step beyond a basic Canon 50mm f1.2 for filming (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/457680-GREY/Canon_1257B002AA_Normal_EF_50mm_f_1_2L.html) which is $1500 by itself and not really designed for video.
Yes, i shoot video on a DSLR.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2011, 12:39:43 AM »

Cannon Man

  • Guest
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2011, 01:38:18 AM »
I love all the news we have had over the past week and i cant wait till the 1DX comes available! BUT im a little fustrated if canon doesnt make a studio orientated 1D.

I thought Canon was all about high quality cameras for taking PICTURES. And with the announcement of the C300 that is almost 20 000$ and lenses that are up to 47 000$

Compared to the quality that comes with that high price my 1D IV is starting to feel like cheap toy.

I want to know that im using the best available gear from Canon.
Now Canon has shown with this announcement that they can make a 6800$ 85mm prime lens, i feel like my 85mm 1.2L II USM is not even close to as good as it could be.

When will i be able to buy a 20 000$ 1D camera with 7000$ prime lenses with AF??

Jettatore

  • Guest
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2011, 06:56:32 AM »
Pedro wrote:
'"'Looking forward to it. Don't care if the 5Diii won't materialize in 2012. ""

Yeah same here.  I don't mind at all if the 5D III or renamed equivalent that I have been waiting for doesn't come out until late '12 or early/mid '13, I'm ready to buy it whenever it launches.

traveller

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 713
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2011, 07:52:17 AM »
Pedro wrote:
'"'Looking forward to it. Don't care if the 5Diii won't materialize in 2012. ""

Yeah same here.  I don't mind at all if the 5D III or renamed equivalent that I have been waiting for doesn't come out until late '12 or early/mid '13, I'm ready to buy it whenever it launches.

I disagree, 2012 looks like it will be an important year for the industry and Canon need to address weaknesses in its line-up, or risk losing further market share to Nikon and Sony.  The 1D X and this 'Cinema EOS' stuff is fine for the professionals, but now Canon needs to look at the enthusiast and mirrorless market. 

If the rumoured D800 really was delayed by the floods in Thailand, then Canon will need a strong 5D MkII repacement in 2012 not 2013, which addresses its predecessor's weaknesses without pricing itself out of the market (e.g. by trying to be a 1Ds series replacement). 

They also need to do something about mirrorless trend and it needs to be as strong and decisive as launching 'Cinema EOS'.   If they fail to provide this next year it will be Nikon and Sony's gain; people have waited to see Canon's hand, but they won't wait forever. 

bsbeamer

  • Rebel T6i
  • ****
  • Posts: 147
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2011, 10:46:19 AM »
The problems you face here have got nothing to do with the price of Canon's lenses and everything to do with the way you run your business and market it to customers as there's nothing stopping you from shooting cheap like others do except yourself.

Shooting "cheap" is something that I'd recommend anyone with an ounce of professionalism to avoid doing.  Shooting within budget however, is what I'd recommend everyone to always do.  "Cheap" has so many meanings to it, many which have a negative connotation to them...

This can bring up the philosophical difference of what separates a professional from some guy running around with a Flip camera, or the corporate PR guy who records a speaker at a podium with his iPhone...  Not saying you can't make something worthwhile with cameras like that, but there are much better tools available these days for someone who does this kinda thing more often and makes a living out of it.

These $45-48k lenses and $6800 primes aren't geared to someone on mid-range projects like mine.  I know that, Canon knows that.  I will continue to use the same gear that I currently utilize to get the job done.  I've been satisfied with it and they get the job done.  Until those tools stop performing to my expectations (and client expectations) I'll probably continue to do so. 

bsbeamer

  • Rebel T6i
  • ****
  • Posts: 147
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2011, 10:57:14 AM »
Firstly unless you are working in a film production house or television studio, the zoom lenses are not marketed at yourself.

And the Primes with their MSRT of $6800 is not that bad, especially when you take into consideration that this is not street price.
How many amateur photographers do you see walking around with a Sigma 200-500? (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/551435-REG/Sigma_597101_200_500mm_f_2_8_EX_DG.html)
Ok i understand that its a $25,000 lens but its also not something that the average Joe will want for his kit.

The same goes for these lenses, they are aimed at the semi pro/advanced amateur videographer, that is using EOS equipment and wants to take it a step beyond a basic Canon 50mm f1.2 for filming (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/457680-GREY/Canon_1257B002AA_Normal_EF_50mm_f_1_2L.html) which is $1500 by itself and not really designed for video.

I agree completely with the zooms.  If you are going to be using these lenses close to DAILY then there are lots of reasons to invest in them.  If you have a larger scale project with a budget that can support it, there's another reason.  But for the majority of folks out there, these zooms aren't going to be purchased for use on a regular basis anytime soon.

As for the primes, I think they are competitively priced within the market.  Street price on them will probably bring them relatively close in price to the RED prime series, and at least on paper the Canon's seem to outperform them.  The available focal lengths for the "complete series" aren't enough to abandon an existing kit, but these lenses will probably be really popular to people shooting on many different cameras.  It would be really interesting to see if Canon adds any additional focal lengths in the next year, or if they offer discounted kit prices like RED and Zeiss do.


Jettatore

  • Guest
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2011, 11:57:03 AM »
IRT traveller:

Mirrorless really doesn't change the end result of digital photography at this point in time.  It doesn't really even change that much, the way in which the user operates the device.  It merely allows the lenses to be mounted closer to the sensor which has some technical differences and in order to leverage it for smaller equipment requires all new, smaller, re-designed lenses, yet, there already are product lines for this, that's Panasonic and others.

At the end of the day, especially if you are a competent editor, digital photography is sort of settled.  We'll continue to get faster speeds, better ISO/less noise to a point, etc.  There's also medium and large format considerations, which have great IQ and usually have slower lenses due to the nature of physics.  And other than High ISO at low noise which is starting to show up rapidly, and the ability to print HUGE while in high detail which medium and large format already covers, -this game is figured out.  The people left who can't create amazing images just aren't good artists, don't grasp digital editing (which is the equivalent of the darkroom developing process and is highly important) and they just need more practice. 

The innovations to come, will mostly be in lower prices and converging technologies (like video and photo being done affordable in one unit, which we are already in the middle of).  The rest of this non-sense is about money, and we all see how well that is going for the world.

Humans continue to do things in outdated weird ways.  I mean, we go down to the camera shop to look at what's on the shelf and if something sucks and no one buys it, it eventually ends up in some garbage pile next to a rain forest along side all of our recently obsoleted garbage (and doesn't make for the nicest nature photography...)  Would make more sense to be making the equipment on demand with on-sight recycling for botched and obsolete designs.  Would be fun if the Camera manufacturing plants were eventually turned into a "public works resource" where people of all ages and skill levels could go to learn and create their own cameras and whatnot (same for all other fields, music equipment, computers, etc.).  The market/money and marketing are creating a lot of needless waste and they are slowing down the progression of technology.

Of interesting note to the above, a digital camera sensor is basically the same thing as a solar cell (which we obviously all need to start getting involved in), an array of PIN photodiodes.  When light hits these diodes that make up the sensor, electrons are collected.  Now in digital photography, these values are counted/organized and stored on disk and then read back later on a monitor etc., as your pixel values that you would see in photoshop.  In solar energy mediums, these same electrons would be stored for their energy in something like a battery, or converted into some other form of energy, like water heat.  The point being, if the people take over the development of Photography and Solar, we'll all be a bit smarter, we won't kill ourselves and the planet, and we will all have the nicest cameras...  Now how's that for some innovative vision and IQ, or do you still just want a mirrorless camera body?

Here's a link to learning electrical engineering at home, from the beginning, it's like a 40+ hour, free, educational series some school posted on youtube, and it's awesome. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZEZUysFPDY&feature=relmfu

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2011, 11:57:03 AM »

traveller

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 713
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2011, 07:02:03 PM »
IRT Jettatore:

No I don't believe that mirrorless is currently a game changer, but with convergent technologies such as on chip phase detect AF and high resolution EVFs, it is probably the direction that camera technology is going.  Once you don't need a mirror to provide an OVF and PDAF, why compromise your lens designs (particularly wide angle) to accomodate it? Canon needs a foothold in this market, or they'll end up in the position that Leica found themselves.  There is also the problem of what's going to happen to their compact camera business with the next couple of generations of mobile 'phones. 

People have been stating that digital cameras have reached a plateau for years; in the case of APS-C, I think they're correct.  Full frame can probably get to 30-40MP with a trade-off of increased (or perhaps I should say, not decreased) higher ISO noise, before it starts geting into trouble with diffraction.  If 21MP is good enough for you then great, stick with a 5D MkII (hope you're also fine with the two generation old AF and metering system), but I wouldn't make assumptions about other people's current or future output needs. 

Thanks for the lecture on wasteful consumer technology, this could easily be applied to 95% of the cr*p that we spend our hard earned money on.  If you're no longer interested in updating you gear because it meets all your needs and desires then that's great, just don't bleat about it on a camera rumours website. 

terryh2c

  • Guest
Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2011, 12:57:57 AM »
It seems really simple to me.  I'd like to go full-frame, but I'm simply not going to spend $2,300 on a 3 year old body -- especially when the product in question seems to be on a 3 year release cycle.  Canon will not get my money until they release a new product.  I'm sure there are many other people in my boat as well.

Agree. Why spend $2500 on a product at the very end of its product cycle?
And the update has been excruciatingly slow in being released, with endless focus (!) on video video video.
Companies like Canon amaze me - there are ten of thousands of people who bought their product before video was even a thought on a product feature list and yet they seem far more interested in developing new markets than providing their existing customers with product updates. 

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2011, 12:57:57 AM »