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Author Topic: Cinema EOS Development Opinion  (Read 9918 times)

cm71td

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2011, 01:59:47 PM »
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I think what they showed was just a 1D X body with a red “C” stuck on it for marketing purposes.

Bummer!  That extra grip on the bottom of my video camera would come in really handy for my new film shot in portrait mode.   ;)

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2011, 01:59:47 PM »

dilbert

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2011, 02:05:52 PM »
Btw: What is the difference between a normal EF lens and a new CN lens? I've just read the aperture diaphragm is different and the CN lenses seem to have full smooth manual control (as the FD lenses). These are no reasons to announce a new mount. Have they probably fixed the very bad auto focus?

There is no autofocus capability with the CN lenses.

It's quite possible that the CN lenses actually have a bigger aperture than any of the stills lenses. For example, the 50mm and 85mm are both "T1.3". The 85/1.2L is "T1.4". So it would seem safe to assume that the 85/T1.3 is a different design. The same holds true for the 50mm/1.2L (it has a T-stop of 1.4.)

Next, the CN lenses do not suffer from any "focus breathing", where your 50mm/1.2 might become a 49mm or 51mm, depending on where the focus is (for example.)

Lastly, the CN lenses all have accurate markings for distance and focusing that can be reliably used for focus pulling. None of the L or other lenses used for stills photography can easily be used in this manner.

CarebbianTraveler

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2011, 02:27:53 PM »
There is no autofocus capability with the CN lenses.

It's quite possible that the CN lenses actually have a bigger aperture than any of the stills lenses. For example, the 50mm and 85mm are both "T1.3". The 85/1.2L is "T1.4". So it would seem safe to assume that the 85/T1.3 is a different design. The same holds true for the 50mm/1.2L (it has a T-stop of 1.4.)

Next, the CN lenses do not suffer from any "focus breathing", where your 50mm/1.2 might become a 49mm or 51mm, depending on where the focus is (for example.)

Lastly, the CN lenses all have accurate markings for distance and focusing that can be reliably used for focus pulling. None of the L or other lenses used for stills photography can easily be used in this manner.

Thanks, this would explain why the cinema lenses are so much more expensive than the still ones, especially the zoom ones. The mechanics to prevent the focus breathing have to be much more complicated.

So canon will probably never build any low-budget cinema lenses.

dilbert

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2011, 03:11:30 PM »
Thanks, this would explain why the cinema lenses are so much more expensive than the still ones, especially the zoom ones. The mechanics to prevent the focus breathing have to be much more complicated.

So canon will probably never build any low-budget cinema lenses.

The Zeiss CP lenses are cheaper - the Zeiss CP 50mm/T2.1 in EF mount is $3900.

Not quite half of the Canon price, but close.

I don't believe that "low budget" and "cinema lens" will even be in the same sentence.

Maybe an aged and used Zeiss CP lens?

Otherwise, I think that this is what separates the men from the boys.

bsbeamer

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2011, 03:28:29 PM »
If you've done your homework and planned out the shoot for your project properly, then you will know on which days you need which lenses and you will rent lenses accordingly, rather than buy.

I guess you've never been on location with clients who have last minute changes to everything?  Or a director who wants to get a few other "angles" in addition to the 50mm shot?  That concept works well in theory, but not in practice, unless you're renting an entire set of lenses for an entire shoot - and even then, I've had additional days tacked onto the end of a shoot because the client wanted to get some extra b-roll or scheduled another interview, or something... Unfortunately mid-range clients these days want it all.  Unless you can serve it up with a smile, then they'll find someone else to do it for cheaper.

bsbeamer

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2011, 03:52:11 PM »
For those that don't know, T-stop is another method of measuring the aperture while compensating for light loss.  It is commonly used on cinema lenses. 
This thread explains it all quite well: http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=882

One main benefit of these cinema style lenses is a smooth aperture adjustment and smooth focus adjustment.  They typically don't have hard "stops" and can (usually) easily go to a 1/3 or 1/2 stop increments between the markings which makes them able to "pull" focus or aperture during a shot.  Among other things, the new Canon cinema prime lenses appear to be much "faster" than the current Zeiss CP series.  They seem to be more on par with the RED series of primes, but until they're put into use and tested on the same camera in the same conditions, it will be hard to figure out the real difference.

Old used PL mount lenses still fetch a huge price tag on the used market, so anything more modern will absolutely hold its value for years to come.  Wouldn't expect to see any "cheap" Zeiss CP's or Cooke's out there anytime soon, unless either of them come up with a budget line to compete with Canon, RED, and themselves.

pedro

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2011, 03:56:43 PM »
CRguy wrote:

"What about photographers?

I know a good majority of photographers are pretty tired about hearing about video in DSLRs. A lot of the community is looking for a new “photography first” full frame DSLR that doesn’t require remortgaging their homes. I think the 5D Mark III will be that camera. It’ll probably have video features on par with the 1D X, but will be a high resolution, high image quality still photography camera

I’ve said before that I think Canon plans to monetize the videographers and video DSLRs, so something like the “EOS 3C” makes a lot of sense. Â Looking at the prices of the new cinema lenses, it seems videographers have no problem spending more.

So don’t be worried photographers, Canon hasn’t forgotten about you and I’m sure will deliver the product we all know you want."

Well, that is just what I wanted to hear after all that video whirlwind from Hollywood.
Looking forward to it. Don't care if the 5Diii won't materialize in 2012.
I rather have a happy 2013 with an upgraded still photography body  8)

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2011, 03:56:43 PM »

dilbert

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2011, 04:12:55 PM »
Unfortunately mid-range clients these days want it all.  Unless you can serve it up with a smile, then they'll find someone else to do it for cheaper.

So where are they going to find someone that can do it cheaper using the same quality in lenses?

Possibly your biggest competition here would be someone that's bought a set of Zeiss CP lenses some time ago and the cost of those lenses has now disappeared from the books. They can just mount them with an adapter and using the Zeiss shims to get the focus right.

The problems you face here have got nothing to do with the price of Canon's lenses and everything to do with the way you run your business and market it to customers as there's nothing stopping you from shooting cheap like others do except yourself.

gene_can_sing

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2011, 06:03:23 PM »
Hearing all the photogs complain about the upcoming DSLR / Video hybrid and not having a true, photo only 5D3; I can't help but think of the irony.

I'm pretty certain the Video DSLR is going to be a lower megapixel stills camera (probably around 12mp since that the ideal for good 4K). The sensors in the video DSLR will probably be the same as the upcoming 5D3 which will be huge megapixel (36 mp to match Nikon).

But a 12mp is going to take much better photos because lower megapixles translates to better ISO / noise performance, especially verses a camera with 3 times the megapixels.

So the DSLR hybrid camera will probably be a better stills camera than the upcoming 5D3 for photogs. But yes, probably not ideal for poster sized prints. But how often do you really make those anyways?

So with the DSLR video hybrid, you will get a better photo camera and a better video camera, just not huge megapixel.

pedro

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2011, 08:27:02 PM »
@gene_can_sing:
Having read several of your posts in the past, there is something about it.
Let us just hope that canon will aim to beat nikon by IQ instead of MP.
given the new sensor technique introduced by the 1Dx and the trend set at lower MP's
lets hope for a 5Diii at 24 MP then.
I'd be very happy if they were following their new outline MP wise...
I am an absolute non tech, but I dare to say,
with the 1Dx in mind they will even get improved IQ
at 24 to 28 MP.
Or is that too much of wishful thinking?
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JR

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2011, 09:13:25 PM »
Well, I really do hope the hybrid camera coming up will give us all this.  One thing for sure from a marketing perspective, the video aspect is giving Canon an excuse to go to a lower MP camera architecture and not loose face.  Remember they have made a point for a long time that MP is important, so you cant all of a sudden change your mind (well you can but for a corporation you need to play with this image carefully).

I think for Canon branding the next few move are critical but are likely very well planned, and it is likely not without reason that we have yet to ear about the 5D II replacement.  They are just not there yet in there chess game.  My two cents...
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AG

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2011, 12:39:43 AM »
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Looking at the prices of the new cinema lenses, it seems videographers have no problem spending more.

Just because Canon is pricing the new lenses at $45-48k for the zooms and $6,800 for EACH of the primes doesn't mean the video community can readily afford these products.  At those steep prices, I'd have to have a huge project with an intense need in order to justify that expense.  With most of the low and restricted mid range budgets these days, I have a feeling that many will be sticking with their current lens lineup for awhile to come.

Firstly unless you are working in a film production house or television studio, the zoom lenses are not marketed at yourself.

And the Primes with their MSRT of $6800 is not that bad, especially when you take into consideration that this is not street price.
How many amateur photographers do you see walking around with a Sigma 200-500? (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/551435-REG/Sigma_597101_200_500mm_f_2_8_EX_DG.html)
Ok i understand that its a $25,000 lens but its also not something that the average Joe will want for his kit.

The same goes for these lenses, they are aimed at the semi pro/advanced amateur videographer, that is using EOS equipment and wants to take it a step beyond a basic Canon 50mm f1.2 for filming (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/457680-GREY/Canon_1257B002AA_Normal_EF_50mm_f_1_2L.html) which is $1500 by itself and not really designed for video.
Yes, i shoot video on a DSLR.

Cannon Man

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2011, 01:38:18 AM »
I love all the news we have had over the past week and i cant wait till the 1DX comes available! BUT im a little fustrated if canon doesnt make a studio orientated 1D.

I thought Canon was all about high quality cameras for taking PICTURES. And with the announcement of the C300 that is almost 20 000$ and lenses that are up to 47 000$

Compared to the quality that comes with that high price my 1D IV is starting to feel like cheap toy.

I want to know that im using the best available gear from Canon.
Now Canon has shown with this announcement that they can make a 6800$ 85mm prime lens, i feel like my 85mm 1.2L II USM is not even close to as good as it could be.

When will i be able to buy a 20 000$ 1D camera with 7000$ prime lenses with AF??

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2011, 01:38:18 AM »

Jettatore

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2011, 06:56:32 AM »
Pedro wrote:
'"'Looking forward to it. Don't care if the 5Diii won't materialize in 2012. ""

Yeah same here.  I don't mind at all if the 5D III or renamed equivalent that I have been waiting for doesn't come out until late '12 or early/mid '13, I'm ready to buy it whenever it launches.

traveller

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2011, 07:52:17 AM »
Pedro wrote:
'"'Looking forward to it. Don't care if the 5Diii won't materialize in 2012. ""

Yeah same here.  I don't mind at all if the 5D III or renamed equivalent that I have been waiting for doesn't come out until late '12 or early/mid '13, I'm ready to buy it whenever it launches.

I disagree, 2012 looks like it will be an important year for the industry and Canon need to address weaknesses in its line-up, or risk losing further market share to Nikon and Sony.  The 1D X and this 'Cinema EOS' stuff is fine for the professionals, but now Canon needs to look at the enthusiast and mirrorless market. 

If the rumoured D800 really was delayed by the floods in Thailand, then Canon will need a strong 5D MkII repacement in 2012 not 2013, which addresses its predecessor's weaknesses without pricing itself out of the market (e.g. by trying to be a 1Ds series replacement). 

They also need to do something about mirrorless trend and it needs to be as strong and decisive as launching 'Cinema EOS'.   If they fail to provide this next year it will be Nikon and Sony's gain; people have waited to see Canon's hand, but they won't wait forever. 

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Re: Cinema EOS Development Opinion
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2011, 07:52:17 AM »