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Author Topic: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works  (Read 4905 times)

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Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« on: November 06, 2011, 03:26:49 PM »

More EF Cine Lenses Coming

According to Erik Allen at Canon there are two more EF Cine prime lenses in the pipeline. An ultra wide solution, as well as a telephoto prime.


From Erik:


There’s also two more of the Cinema Primes, one would be an ultra-wide and one would be a telephoto over and above what we have already announced so we have two more in the pipeline and from there we will see where the market tells us we need to go.


10 Things You May Not Know About the EOS C300 & Future of Cinema EOS

Photographer Dan Carr posted a great article on his site about the C300 and Cinema EOS announcements.


Read it here


cr


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Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« on: November 06, 2011, 03:26:49 PM »

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2011, 03:55:42 PM »
It might be interesting to speculate that they will have EF equivalents at some point, just as there is a obvious relation to the 24mm, 50mm, and 85mm lenses.  I suppose that they could be the TS-E 17mm adapted and the 14mm adapted to cine format as well. 

Edwin Herdman

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2011, 04:01:16 PM »
I agree about the TS-E 17mm - fine lens for this kind of work - but it appears that Canon may have pointedly avoided going the adapter route as Zeiss did for the CP.2 and LWZ lenses, because it's apparently quite difficult to actually get them seated accurately, and to do it with any speed.  It would not be equivalent to slapping on an EF Extender, in other words.  Video lenses have to be tightly seated and able to hold some weight, as you could guess would be the case when you have gears for remote focus pulling.

dilbert

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2011, 04:37:39 PM »
Has anyone done a patent search for these lenses?

funkboy

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2011, 11:11:48 PM »
Based on the current Ciné offerings (& their similarities to the L lens lineup), I'd guess that the ultra-wide option would be a 14mm T1.5 and the tele would be either a 135 T2.1 or a 200 T2.1.

Or perhaps since Ciné doesn't require I.S. they'd pull the design for the old non-IS 200 f/1.8L out of the closet & give the world a 200 T1.9...

...which raises a question:  obviously the mechanicals are radically different, but in order to capitalize on existing tooling & designs I would be very surprised if the announced Ciné prime lineup didn't share the same glass elements (or at least mostly the same) with the 24mm f/1.4L II, 50mm f/1.2L, & 85mm f/1.2L II.  Given that the non-IS 200 f/1.8 has been out of production for a really long time, I'd imagine that there's no glass works to just "convert" that lens to a Ciné lens...

BTW I'd be very surprised if we see any tilt/shift Ciné lenses.  The mechanical design of those things is complicated enough already without adding all the Ciné gearing & damping, plus none of the follow-focus tools would mechanically work as soon as the front element was shifted.  Such a system would require a complete redesign of the T/S lens to move the focusing element group(s) to the non-shiftable part of the lens body...

dr croubie

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2011, 02:25:09 AM »
Given that the non-IS 200 f/1.8 has been out of production for a really long time, I'd imagine that there's no glass works to just "convert" that lens to a Ciné lens...

The 200 f/1.8 was discontinued because of the way they made the glass, there was Lead (and/or other ROHS-prohibited stuff) in the waste-products from the manufacturing (no lead in the glass though). It took them a few years to redesign it using glass that didn't need lead to make it, and then they could only make it f/2.0 (OK, they probably could have made it f/1.8 but the cost/size/IQ must have been such that they went for the f/2.0 design).

I very doubt that we'll see a TS-E cine lens as well. But there's nothing to stop them taking the optics from it and putting it into a non-shifting version, it will be slow but super-sharp. Tilt-only might be more feasible in a cine-shaped lens.

But there's nothing to stop anyone using the current TS-E line on an EF-mount camera, it just might not be parfocal and have the nice focus/aperture gearing.
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Bob Howland

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2011, 10:15:00 AM »
Any guesses regarding whether these EF Cine Primes will perform better/worse/not differently than their still lens equivalents, when used for still images on cameras like the 1Ds3 and 5D2?

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2011, 10:15:00 AM »

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2011, 11:36:19 AM »
I agree about the TS-E 17mm - fine lens for this kind of work - but it appears that Canon may have pointedly avoided going the adapter route as Zeiss did for the CP.2 and LWZ lenses, because it's apparently quite difficult to actually get them seated accurately, and to do it with any speed.  It would not be equivalent to slapping on an EF Extender, in other words.  Video lenses have to be tightly seated and able to hold some weight, as you could guess would be the case when you have gears for remote focus pulling.

Edwin, I apologize that my post wasn't clear. 

What I meant to say was that the optics for the 14mm L and the TS-E 17mm might be repackaged into a compact prime shell, just as they apparently did with the other three primes.  This means that only new machined metal is involved along with a manual aperture mechanism.  The new lenses have no electrical aperture or autofocus, I'm not sure if they have a AF confirm chip, but I doubt it.

J. McCabe

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2011, 07:30:17 AM »
But there's nothing to stop anyone using the current TS-E line on an EF-mount camera, it just might not be parfocal and have the nice focus/aperture gearing.

TS-E lenses are primes, in what sense can they be not parfocal ?

dr croubie

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2011, 06:49:23 PM »
But there's nothing to stop anyone using the current TS-E line on an EF-mount camera, it just might not be parfocal and have the nice focus/aperture gearing.

TS-E lenses are primes, in what sense can they be not parfocal ?

ooh yeah, point taken. what's it called when the focus-shifts when stopping down the aperture? my 70-300L does that every time i try to take macros...
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AG

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2011, 09:12:23 PM »
Any guesses regarding whether these EF Cine Primes will perform better/worse/not differently than their still lens equivalents, when used for still images on cameras like the 1Ds3 and 5D2?

Theoretically they should work better as they cover a larger area, have better light sensitivity and (one would guess) have better glass.

But then again they won't have autofocus ability so a lot of photographers will not like that (unless your totally old school and do everything manually)
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J. McCabe

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2011, 06:55:14 AM »
But there's nothing to stop anyone using the current TS-E line on an EF-mount camera, it just might not be parfocal and have the nice focus/aperture gearing.

TS-E lenses are primes, in what sense can they be not parfocal ?

ooh yeah, point taken. what's it called when the focus-shifts when stopping down the aperture? my 70-300L does that every time i try to take macros...

I'm no expert, but isn't it "focus shift [due to spherical aberration]" ?

The TS-E lenses are rather slow & wide, so I would think those wouldn't have a noticeable focus shift due to aperture changes.

Edwin Herdman

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2011, 04:33:07 PM »
You guys are talking about "focus breathing."  I don't know of a nice technical-sounding (heh) name like "parfocal" or "focus shift" for it, but the cause is simply that the angle of view changes (longer or shorter) due to extension of the lens.  Many, and probably most, EF prime lenses exhibit this effect - certainly the TS-E 90mm and the 50mm f/1.4 do change their angle of view on focusing.

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2011, 04:33:07 PM »

Jettatore

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2011, 01:22:58 AM »
I don't fully understand the new 'Cine' equipment myself.  It's moving towards video on EF mount, so that on it's own, is good thing, and helpful to EF mount users with video needs weather they use the high end Cine stuff or not.  However, the whole move seems odd, definitely catered for a completely different crowd than the current DSLR video crowd and I'll explain why.

If I'm going to rent (and the dying breed Hollywood also rents a lot, and it is my position that they are dying), well then either I'm going to rent lenses, a body or both lenses with a body.  So where does this new stuff fit in?

If I'm going to rent BOTH a cine body and cine lens, then I might as well consider every option in any mount.
If I'm going to rent just a cine lens, then that is a large cost just to stick it on a 5D Mark II (or whatever replaces it).  And what does it really offer me?  Mostly it offers subtle and in shot aperture control.  But, why isn't canon instead, making subtle and in shot aperture control available digitally, simply by attaching a secondary controller to the camera body.  And if this new additional controller wouldn't be usable by currently manufactured lenses, then instead just a feature of new lenses, when used with a digital wheel adapter. 
If I'm just going to rent of a cine body, but use standard EF lenses, well now this option starts to make greater sense.  Do I want the high end features in my upcoming/upgraded bodies, yes, but some may technically not be feasible in a 5D body size, and not just marketing decisions, and with all the added equipment needed, a rental of a Cine body, could make good sense.

Also we have to keep in mind, that the times TV/Hollywood did use DSLR's in production, price and being able to take risks with the cheaper equipment, etc., all were likely considerations for using that tech and not something else altogether.  Again, baffling me as to what they are planning with all of these super expensive, non-DSLR focused releases.

Overall I'm a bit confused until I realize these new products really are not geared at all at DSLR film makers and are a completely different beast.  Aka, take a new cine lens, and put it on either a Cine mount or a Red cam that features an EF mount and so on.  But even then I'm still a bit confused and will have to see how it all plays out, sincerely hoping that if there are affordable/reasonable things that can be done on the DSLR video that I invested in, that they will be done, and not artificially with-held for marketing purposes.  I hate to see profit and marketing hinder the efficacy or growth of technology and ubiquitous convergence technologies, I think we all accept it to some degree, but it is a shame, especially when so much of this stuff eventually ends up in a junk pile/environmental disaster some years down the road.

Side note, I'm not real concerned about 4k video, but am I the only one would would like some extra safe-frame resolution on top of 1080p so that I can attempt to re-crop and salvage a tripod bump stutter in post with tracking techniques and so on and so forth.  For me 4k really fit the bill for this, as it also allows panning and zooming of a shot, or just total re-framing after the fact.  If you don't understand what I am getting at, then shoot a project that will output at 720p but shoot it at 1080p instead, for the times you have no need for 60fps, and all of a sudden you have a lot of extra room for editing before you export it out to 720.  I want this ability, but for the industry standard, not going anywhere fast, 1080p specification.  And it does not seem unreasonable to ask for this in a 5D MKIII or 1DX.  Also not excited about a video dedicated (aka. missing photography features) DSLR, but can understand a Photo only DSLR, if and when there is specific reason why DSLR video components would bump up the price for a Photo only user.  Also, all the new buyers of the lenses, should help keep costs down for all, so I don't see why anyone should be upset, as I've read in a few goofy posts.

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Re: Two More EF Cine Primes in the Works
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2011, 01:22:58 AM »