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Author Topic: 5DIII will come  (Read 61855 times)

te4o

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2011, 01:54:25 PM »
Yes, so let it be, even with the current AF, let that damned thing have less banding and slightly better DR and keep the AF for the expEnsive cams - having all shots in focus seems to be an expensive and precious gift... Ridiculous marketing strategies ... But neuro is probably right as usual even if he writes things he hopes won't happen - borders superstition almost, this 5D.
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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2011, 01:54:25 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2011, 09:21:28 AM »
I think that you're agreeing with me on the AF point spread. What I'm saying is take the middle 1DX AF sensor and replace the current 9 in the 5D2 with that.

It doesn't really work like that.  They'd have to design a while new sensor, which they might.  But the spread of the AF points is accomplished by the microlenses over the AF sensor, not the AF sensor itself.  When you look at an actual AF sensor, you don't really see the individual AF points.  For example, the 7D's AF sensor:



At first glance it appears to be just one large cluster with two smaller clusters at the sides, such that you might be tempted to think it's the center AF point and the two on either side.  But in fact, you're looking at 20 AF points (19 '+' f/5.6 points and one 'x' f/2.8 point superimposed on the center '+' point).  The way to interpret this diagram is that each adjacent pair of lines in a horizontal orientation, e.g. — —, represents the horizontal sensor lines of one to three AF points (longer lines contribute to more AF points), each adjacent pair of lines in a vertical orientation represents the vertical lines of one to five AF points (longer lines contribute to more AF points), and the pairs of single diagonal lines represent the center f/2.8 'x' cross-type point.

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heavybarrel

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2011, 12:58:02 PM »
It looks like most people are pretty damn happy with their 5D2s... There are just some quibbles about the ancient AF system really. Otherwise, fps, ISO, mp... all up to par. Really, if the 5D2 was introduced last year, it would still make sense in the Canon lineup. If the 5D3 is just going to bump up the mp and ISO a bit and largely leave the AF alone, then I say I'd rather wait another year or so and get a 5D that will have a significantly upgraded AF instead of getting one in the next 6 months that upgrades everything just a bit but still leaves me wanting more. And out another $3k lol. What do you think? Is the 5D2 so terrible now that we need an minor upgrade on things we're mostly happy about right now?

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2011, 02:29:30 PM »
Quote from: neuroanatomist
I think the 5DII produces wonderful images, and I use it much more often than my 7D.  But everytime I use the 7D, I'm struck by how much better the AF system is, and how much room for imprevement there is in the 5DII's AF.  Sadly, I firmly believe they Canon will intentionally hobble it to increase separation from the 1D X.  Frame rate and build won't be enough, especially if the 5DIII is a high MP camera.

+1 that. Even though many of us expect to see 7D's AF in the 5DIII, Canon is unlikely to offer that. An all 9 cross-type AF as in the 60D seems more likely to be used in the 5DIII, or maybe a completely new AF system, something between 60D's and 7D's AF.

Good grief, I would hope note. Calling the 7D too advanced for the 7D when it's really not half as special as people make it out to be to begin, it's just not 1 series level, at all, and sometimes doesn't even do quite as well as current 5D2 AF, although certainly plenty of times it does. If they stick a half-way between 60D and 7D AF, that would so weak I really might decide to look at Nikon seriously.

 Even merely just 7D AF would be pretty weak IMO.

The 1DX adds so many advances they surely wouldn't need to cripple things close ot this much. Heck even 1D4 AF would be a noticeable step down.

Then again, the way Canon has been heading, maybe it will be a crippled 7D AF and a weak 4fps again even if you'd think it'd need atleast 1D3/4 AF and 6fps to match Nikon.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2011, 02:43:41 PM »
The 1DX adds so many advances they surely wouldn't need to cripple things close ot this much.

The 1D X adds some nice advances relative to the current 1-series bodies - but note, there is some regression as well - the loss of center point AF with an f/8 lens. 
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Isaac

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2011, 04:57:56 PM »
It looks like most people are pretty damn happy with their 5D2s... There are just some quibbles about the ancient AF system really. Otherwise, fps, ISO, mp... all up to par. Really, if the 5D2 was introduced last year, it would still make sense in the Canon lineup. If the 5D3 is just going to bump up the mp and ISO a bit and largely leave the AF alone, then I say I'd rather wait another year or so and get a 5D that will have a significantly upgraded AF instead of getting one in the next 6 months that upgrades everything just a bit but still leaves me wanting more. And out another $3k lol. What do you think? Is the 5D2 so terrible now that we need an minor upgrade on things we're mostly happy about right now?

I don't think Canon are going to just up the MP and ISO while jumping the price to $3k. I expect Canon are going to be putting in a lot of effort in making sure that the 5D3 is going to still be head and shoulders above any other camera in it's category eg. D800.

AG

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2011, 06:04:40 PM »
Speaking with the local Canon rep today in the camera store while picking up 12 new bodies for work.

Asked him about the new 5D3 and said about buying a new 5D2 or should i wait.

His exact words were, the 5D3 is due in March 2012 but expect constraints on supply like when the 5D2 was released so don't expect to see one for about 6 months. Which he said will be around the time the 1D-C will be introduced.

Now going on that it seems that its a sure bet that we won't see the Mk3 until at least early next year and not be able to buy one until around July/August time.

If this was to be true it pretty much seals the deal for me buying a Mk2 NOW and not waiting anymore, i can buy the Mk3 later down the track, and as long as the batteries and grip etc all still fit it won't be a huge loss (having to re buy all new batteries etc).

He also made mention that the 5D3 will not be the video DSLR that everyone is wanting (pretty much the same as already in the Mk2), that will be what the 1D-C will be.

Now i don't know how much of this was just BS from him wanting to sell another body but he seemed pretty convinced.

Only time will tell..... now to damage the credit card for that 5D2 body :)
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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2011, 06:04:40 PM »

alipaulphotography

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2011, 06:07:08 PM »
They aren't going to want to be hurting 1Dx sales though. They've suffered that before with the 5DII eating sales from the 1 series bodies. In order to make the 5DIII 'inferior' it will most certainly have less fps, probably (slightly) lower ISO capabilities, intermediate AF and no built in battery grip of course. I don't know what they'll do with the sensor and MP but I'd imagine it will be high mp to give it its own niche. I'd rather the 18mp 1dx sensor but in a slower cheaper body! Fingers crossed...

willrobb

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2011, 08:22:39 PM »
Quote from: neuroanatomist
I think the 5DII produces wonderful images, and I use it much more often than my 7D.  But everytime I use the 7D, I'm struck by how much better the AF system is, and how much room for imprevement there is in the 5DII's AF.  Sadly, I firmly believe they Canon will intentionally hobble it to increase separation from the 1D X.  Frame rate and build won't be enough, especially if the 5DIII is a high MP camera.

+1 that. Even though many of us expect to see 7D's AF in the 5DIII, Canon is unlikely to offer that. An all 9 cross-type AF as in the 60D seems more likely to be used in the 5DIII, or maybe a completely new AF system, something between 60D's and 7D's AF.

+ 2 that. The image quality of the 5DmkII had me using it 90% to my 7D's 10%, but the AF and FPS ofthe 7D really was great.

Last weekend I sold my 7D and got a second 5DmkII body. Big price drops in Japan.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2011, 08:25:28 PM »
The 1DX adds so many advances they surely wouldn't need to cripple things close ot this much.

The 1D X adds some nice advances relative to the current 1-series bodies - but note, there is some regression as well - the loss of center point AF with an f/8 lens.

yeah, too bad about that too, since it gives marketing all the excuse they need to not dare put 1D4 AF into 7D2 or 5D3 :(

K-amps

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2011, 10:51:38 AM »
It looks like most people are pretty damn happy with their 5D2s... There are just some quibbles about the ancient AF system really. Otherwise, fps, ISO, mp... all up to par. Really, if the 5D2 was introduced last year, it would still make sense in the Canon lineup. If the 5D3 is just going to bump up the mp and ISO a bit and largely leave the AF alone, then I say I'd rather wait another year or so and get a 5D that will have a significantly upgraded AF instead of getting one in the next 6 months that upgrades everything just a bit but still leaves me wanting more. And out another $3k lol. What do you think? Is the 5D2 so terrible now that we need an minor upgrade on things we're mostly happy about right now?

 
I don't think Canon are going to just up the MP and ISO while jumping the price to $3k. I expect Canon are going to be putting in a lot of effort in making sure that the 5D3 is going to still be head and shoulders above any other camera in it's category eg. D800.

The one thing going concerns do; is ensure sustainability.

One would think that if they made the 5D3 such a superior product, it would cannibalize other canon models, (higher margin offerings) secondly would be hard for them to show improvements in a 5d4 etc. As Neuro would put it, if one plotted the value propositions; it would be close to a second order polynomial  :P, and a very high value 5d3 would be a distraction to the progressive market segmentation they have tried to create.

I suspect they will make it very close to the D800 in terms of a value proposition. Again thinking sustainibility.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 10:55:28 AM by K-amps »
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LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2011, 01:23:23 PM »
It looks like most people are pretty damn happy with their 5D2s... There are just some quibbles about the ancient AF system really. Otherwise, fps, ISO, mp... all up to par. Really, if the 5D2 was introduced last year, it would still make sense in the Canon lineup. If the 5D3 is just going to bump up the mp and ISO a bit and largely leave the AF alone, then I say I'd rather wait another year or so and get a 5D that will have a significantly upgraded AF instead of getting one in the next 6 months that upgrades everything just a bit but still leaves me wanting more. And out another $3k lol. What do you think? Is the 5D2 so terrible now that we need an minor upgrade on things we're mostly happy about right now?

 
I don't think Canon are going to just up the MP and ISO while jumping the price to $3k. I expect Canon are going to be putting in a lot of effort in making sure that the 5D3 is going to still be head and shoulders above any other camera in it's category eg. D800.

The one thing going concerns do; is ensure sustainability.

One would think that if they made the 5D3 such a superior product, it would cannibalize other canon models, (higher margin offerings) secondly would be hard for them to show improvements in a 5d4 etc. As Neuro would put it, if one plotted the value propositions; it would be close to a second order polynomial  :P, and a very high value 5d3 would be a distraction to the progressive market segmentation they have tried to create.

I suspect they will make it very close to the D800 in terms of a value proposition. Again thinking sustainibility.

OTOH the lower tiers have so much vastly larger volume. The 1Ds sold about zero copies compared to 5 series.
And all this little picking and pecking and barely improving this or that maybe it seems good, but imagine if they had gone full tilt a few years back when Nikon was floundering, Canon seriously could've grabbed a ton a ton of extra market share and had so many more people on board and buying lenses, etc. Sometimes I think the marketing attitude of recent Canon shoots themselves in the foot in the end.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2011, 01:45:31 PM »
imagine if they had gone full tilt a few years back when Nikon was floundering, Canon seriously could've grabbed a ton a ton of extra market share and had so many more people on board and buying lenses, etc. Sometimes I think the marketing attitude of recent Canon shoots themselves in the foot in the end.

Really?  The numbers over recent years contradict that statement.  Consider - last year (2010, latest for which figures are available), Canon had ~45% of the dSLR market share, compared to Nikon's ~30%.  Three years before that, in 2007, Nikon had 41% dSLR share to Canon's 40% share.  So from 2007 through 2010, Canon grew their market share while Nikon lost it to Sony, Olympus, et al.

So, why change anything?  They're winning!  Yes, I know the arguments about resting on past laurels, etc., but the can obviously convince themselves that they're doing everything right, and it's hard to argue otherwise...
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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2011, 01:45:31 PM »

whatta

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2011, 02:05:07 PM »
since you have been talking about AF, let me ask my question again:

is there ANY difference between the AF of 60d vs AF of the rebels from 400d (to 600d)
IF I ONLY use the manually selected central AF point?
(cross type f2/8)

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neuroanatomist

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2011, 02:55:35 PM »
let me ask my question again:

is there ANY difference between the AF of 60d vs AF of the rebels from 400d (to 600d)
IF I ONLY use the manually selected central AF point?
(cross type f2/8)

Missed the question before, but yes, there is a difference. 

The Rebel center AF point is a single cross-type point that is vertical-line sensitive at f/2.8 and vertical- and horizontal-line sensitivite at f/5.6.  Basically, the AF point is a '+' shape with a longer horizontal arm.  So, with a lens slower than f/2.8, it's an f/5.6-sensitive cross, but with f/2.8 and faster lenses, it's a single orientation sensor with the higher accuracy you get from an f/2.8 baseline, but only for vertical lines. 

The xxD (40D - 60D, actually 7D as well) center AF point is a dual cross-type point that is vertical- and horizontal-line sensitivite at f/5.6, with a diagonally-oriented f/2.8-sensitive cross-type sensor.  Picture it as a bigger 'x' superimposed on a smaller '+'. 

The diagonal cross means you get the more accurate f/2.8 baseline in multiple orientations, and thus you're more likely to get more accurate focus with the center AF point on the xxD/7D than on the Rebel/xxxD body.
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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2011, 02:55:35 PM »