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Author Topic: 5DIII will come  (Read 62055 times)

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #60 on: November 21, 2011, 01:20:59 PM »
What market are we talking about here?  Is Canon really competing with Nikon or Sony at this level?  How many people jump into dSLR photography by buying a camera costing >$2K?  The 'competition' is in the P&S and entry-level dSLR arena.  At the higher levels, for the most part, buyers are already invested in a system. High profile 'defections' notwithstanding, there's a lot of inertia to changing brands when you have lenses, flashes, etc.  So, I contend that for a 5DIII, Canon's greatest need for differentiation is from their own lines, not Nikon/Sony/etc.  That's why the 5DII got the same AF as the 5D (given the alignment of release dates for 5DII and D700, Canon surely 'knew'.  That's why they had no problem eliminating f/8 AF from the 'awesome' AF system of the 1D X - no doubt they knew it would piss off a lot of current 1-series users, and they didn't care.  When they gift it back with a 1D X Mark II, the 'awesomer-ness' of the update will be another method of internal differentiation.

Put another way, Nikon has been offering more AF points in comparable bodies for years...and yet from 2007 to 2010, Canon went from 40% to 45% dSLR market share while Nikon fell from 41% to 30%.  Canon has no reason to change...so, they'll keep using AF for inter-line differentiation, and hobble the 5DIII's AF.

There's my organ grinding for the night...

This is the sort of thinking that slowly leads king of the hills to eventually end up being relegated to the annals of history.

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #60 on: November 21, 2011, 01:20:59 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #61 on: November 21, 2011, 01:23:29 PM »
Not sure if anyone in this furom actually has this info, but building on John (Neuro) thinking, I guess if we knew how much of the 5D sales for example were from new buyers versus a Canon upgrade, that would help.  Then if we knew the demographic of people buying 5Ds with several L lens, it would also help assessing their stickyness.  For example are they professional making a living from it or recreational passionate with a lot of disposable income?

If Canon beleive their market for a 5DIII will come from Canon owners wanting to upgrade and if they beleive these buyers are not likely to jump ship (from their marketing analysis) then maybe we will all be disappointed with the specs.  If on the other end they want to stay the market leader and continue to steel customer from NIkon and Sony while at the same time making money from existing customer by making them upgrade, it will lead to a more exsiting set of specs!

I agree that no one here has those data.  But Canon has those data.  Whenever you register a new product purchase online, you're asked what other camera(s) you own, what lenses you own, what lenses you're planning to buy next year, your profession, your income, etc.  I'd argue that some of their choices in the last few years (e.g. a 60D clearly aimed at xxxD upgraders, not 50D upgraders) are driven by just that sort of demographic data. 

I'm sure Canon does look at what Nikon/Sony are doing, at all levels - they do need to compete for some philosophical 'best camera in class' even if they're not competing for that many real customers in the upper end of the range.

and also note how foolish those suerveys they send out are, they are like so what two reasons most made you want the 5D2, and of course nobody puts down speed or AF, because well it is hardly tops in that, and then when a journalist asks Canon why they didn't do better, Canon responds, our buyers clearly signaled to use that they don't care about speed or AF in a 5 class camera, come on. it's circular.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #62 on: November 21, 2011, 01:26:00 PM »
D800 confirmed at 36 MP by NR.  Canon was right all along. More MP *is* better. That tears it. I'm selling all my Canon gear and switching to Nikon.

 :P

Maybe when you find that it has the top AF module available from Nikon and 6fps with grip and 36MP and much improved video and all sorts of little helpful settings in firmware not crippled away and then see the 5D3 with 30MP, a crippled 7D AF and 3.9fps no matter what you do to it, no manual audio, no zebra stripes, no fully working autoiso, no outline for histogram, tons of other little thigns crippled, etc. etc. maybe you will switch to Nikon hah.

neuroanatomist

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2011, 01:28:05 PM »
what do you feel are the *best* uses for the 5dm2. Another words, what are the most practical uses for the 5dm2 and what specific uses would one think about in buying a 5dm2 over say a crop 7d?

From a marketing standpoint, the 5DII is seemingly intended as a studio/landscape camera, and I think it excels in that realm.  Landscapes, you have time to spare, and in a studio setting, you have time and control over lighting, and subjects that can hold still and be re-shot.  For those uses, a slow(ish) frame rate and relatively weak AF aren't a handicap.  Events such as weddings can work fine - they are generally predictable, there's even a rehersal so you know exactly who will be where, and when, so the must-have shots are obtainable.  It does less well in unpatterned situations like the reception, but in that case the solution is just taking lots of shots, so you get enough keepers. 

OTOH, for fast moving situations like sports and wildlife, I don't think the 5DII is the best choice.  That's not to say it can't be used for those purposes, just that it's not the best tool available.

Honestly, I also think it does a fine job as a general use camera for an advanced amateur.  I use it in situations where I know it won't perform well - shooting my kids running towards me through piles of leaves yesterday, for example - the keeper rate was very low.  But the consequences of not getting a good shot are personal - not professional.  If I had to depend on a camera for getting the shot with moving subjects, the 5DII would not be my first choice (or even my second). 

Bottom line, in situations where you have time/control, the 5DII delivers great IQ and a high keeper rate.  In more fluid situations, the keeper rate drops substantially - but often, that's not a problem.
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briansquibb

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2011, 01:30:09 PM »
Please stop trashing the 5DII AF - it is better than the older prosumer bodies, up to the 50D and up to the 550D.

Master the technique and you will get the best IQ of them all
I would like to beg to differ, but instead i'm gonna come right out with it and tell you you're wrong.

I have to side with Picsfor on this.  Is the 5DII AF horrible?  No.  It's just about as good as the AF system on which it's based, the 20D.  The same one used in the Rebel/xxxD series.  I started with a T1i/500D and moved to a 7D in part because the Rebel's AI Servo system just didn't cut it.  I know the 5DII has 6 'invisible' AF points supposedly intended to improve AI Servo, but frankly, they don't help all that much - the performance is on par with what I got out of the 500D.  The 7D is far superior, and I would imagine that a 1-series would be a significant further step up. 

As for low light, the 5DII's specified sensitivity is -0.5 EV, the same as the 7D, xxD, and xxxD bodies.  Granted, that's not the whole story - in practice, the 5DII does seem to do better than the 7D in low light, as long as you're using the center AF point.  But the off-center AF points of the 5DII?  Frankly, they suck.  Many times, they just flat out miss focus, even with a top-notch lens like the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II.  The 7D locks on and holds, regardless of the AF point in use.  The statement, "Giving it just that little extra time..." doesn't help me.  If I have that little extra time, I'll put the camera on a tripod and manually focus with 10x Live View. 

I love my 5DII - the IQ is excellent.  But the AF system is it's Achilles' heel - it's not only slower than the 7D and certainly the 1-series, it's not as accurate, nor can it track well.

I am sure we are all in agreement about the 7D and 1D4 having a better AF - however it doesn't mean that the AF is rubbish either. The little extra time might be as long as a 10th of a second - I can happily shoot motorsport with the 5DII because I start panning earlier. If your 5DII is neither accurate nor tracking properly I suggest you send it back to Cannon.

For the sensor and low light I suggest you visit the DxO labs and compare the 7D, the 5DII and the 1D4 - the results might surprise you

Mind you the 7D AF is poor in comparison with the 1D4 but that is a different story

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #65 on: November 21, 2011, 01:31:16 PM »
The AF on the 5DII is good and accurate. Not as fast as the 7D or 1D4, but it is reliable. In low light it is better than the others.

Once locked on in servo mode it is very good.

Please stop trashing the 5DII AF - it is better than the older prosumer bodies, up to the 50D and up to the 550D. Giving it just that little extra time it does the job everytime - and no other beats it in low light. All about knowing the kit and applying the right technique.

Master the technique and you will get the best IQ of them all

It's better than rebel or xxD AF (for center point at least) but that isn't saying much. The outer points are MUCH less prone to lock than even on a cheap 40D. None of these can do action with anything other than center point, at all. The 5D2 actually does center point action and stills better than the rebels and xxD but even here it can have a lot of issues with any sort of action if the subject is close. The 7D has vastly better outer points, ones that can even be used for action, but I don't really find it's center point any better for stills at all, if even, and even for action sometimes I think the center point on it is a bit worse for more distant subjects, it still seems a far cry from a top level AF to me.

MartinvH

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2011, 01:32:58 PM »
Please stop trashing the 5DII AF - it is better than the older prosumer bodies, up to the 50D and up to the 550D.

Master the technique and you will get the best IQ of them all
I would like to beg to differ, but instead i'm gonna come right out with it and tell you you're wrong.

I have to side with Picsfor on this.  Is the 5DII AF horrible?  No.  It's just about as good as the AF system on which it's based, the 20D.  The same one used in the Rebel/xxxD series.  I started with a T1i/500D and moved to a 7D in part because the Rebel's AI Servo system just didn't cut it.  I know the 5DII has 6 'invisible' AF points supposedly intended to improve AI Servo, but frankly, they don't help all that much - the performance is on par with what I got out of the 500D.  The 7D is far superior, and I would imagine that a 1-series would be a significant further step up. 

As for low light, the 5DII's specified sensitivity is -0.5 EV, the same as the 7D, xxD, and xxxD bodies.  Granted, that's not the whole story - in practice, the 5DII does seem to do better than the 7D in low light, as long as you're using the center AF point.  But the off-center AF points of the 5DII?  Frankly, they suck.  Many times, they just flat out miss focus, even with a top-notch lens like the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II.  The 7D locks on and holds, regardless of the AF point in use.  The statement, "Giving it just that little extra time..." doesn't help me.  If I have that little extra time, I'll put the camera on a tripod and manually focus with 10x Live View. 

I love my 5DII - the IQ is excellent.  But the AF system is it's Achilles' heel - it's not only slower than the 7D and certainly the 1-series, it's not as accurate, nor can it track well.

neuroanatomist,

Your highly valued opinion being said, under those limitations, what do you feel are the *best* uses for the 5dm2. Another words, what are the most practical uses for the 5dm2 and what specific uses would one think about in buying a 5dm2 over say a crop 7d?

Well that is quite simple even for me to answer correctly.

5D2 for portraits , landscapes  , studio work
7d  Anythink that moves and/or is at a longer distance so your lens will get a longer view

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2011, 01:32:58 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #67 on: November 21, 2011, 01:37:55 PM »
Please stop trashing the 5DII AF - it is better than the older prosumer bodies, up to the 50D and up to the 550D.

Master the technique and you will get the best IQ of them all
I would like to beg to differ, but instead i'm gonna come right out with it and tell you you're wrong.

I have to side with Picsfor on this.  Is the 5DII AF horrible?  No.  It's just about as good as the AF system on which it's based, the 20D.  The same one used in the Rebel/xxxD series.  I started with a T1i/500D and moved to a 7D in part because the Rebel's AI Servo system just didn't cut it.  I know the 5DII has 6 'invisible' AF points supposedly intended to improve AI Servo, but frankly, they don't help all that much - the performance is on par with what I got out of the 500D.  The 7D is far superior, and I would imagine that a 1-series would be a significant further step up. 

As for low light, the 5DII's specified sensitivity is -0.5 EV, the same as the 7D, xxD, and xxxD bodies.  Granted, that's not the whole story - in practice, the 5DII does seem to do better than the 7D in low light, as long as you're using the center AF point.  But the off-center AF points of the 5DII?  Frankly, they suck.  Many times, they just flat out miss focus, even with a top-notch lens like the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II.  The 7D locks on and holds, regardless of the AF point in use.  The statement, "Giving it just that little extra time..." doesn't help me.  If I have that little extra time, I'll put the camera on a tripod and manually focus with 10x Live View. 

I love my 5DII - the IQ is excellent.  But the AF system is it's Achilles' heel - it's not only slower than the 7D and certainly the 1-series, it's not as accurate, nor can it track well.

Well I have to say I've found the 6 hidden assists on the 5D2 to help to a radical degree. Results on top level soccer, surfing and football were night and day having them off vs. on for me. And I have to say it did AI Servo a lot better for me than an old 20D, moreso the farther away the subject. If the subject gets close it still seems too sluggish to track well and maybe it doesn't really do any better than 20D.

But for stills or ai servo i find the 5D2 far better than the 20D-50D were.

Yeah the outer points often have a ridiculously hard time grabbing focus on anything, reasonably precise (by consumer-level standards) if they actually do grab, but they fail so often it's ridiculous.

7D outer points work far more quickly, grab far, far more often and are at least as precise.
7D center doesn't do any better for me for stills though and sometimes I almost trust it less and even for AI servo I don't find it really all that great compared to some of the praise it gets. And plenty of lighting conditions, espcially if it is super bright or there i sbacklighting and it can turn to a mess.

briansquibb

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #68 on: November 21, 2011, 01:40:10 PM »
Please stop trashing the 5DII AF - it is better than the older prosumer bodies, up to the 50D and up to the 550D.

Master the technique and you will get the best IQ of them all
I would like to beg to differ, but instead i'm gonna come right out with it and tell you you're wrong.

I done a night time badger shoot using my old 40D and my 5D2.
I wonder if you can guess which body produced the most accurately focused shots - even though i could only really push it to 1600iso?

Yep, 40D beat it by a country mile. Even though 5D2 had an option of 6400iso, i kept coming back to the 40D.
The focusing is the weak link in this otherwise "perfect camera".

The same could also be said with my 30D - and i have the pic listed some where to prove it. Don't have many by the 5D2 though!

What you are using your 5D2 for, may be perfect for the focusing system; for me, and many others, we often have a variety of situations in which to use our camera.

I have a 40D to compare it with. Been sat in the cupboard as it doens't cut the mustard in comparison. I suggest you read the DxO reports - AF in poor light from the 5DII hands down beats the 7D and the 1D4 - exactly what I have found.

May only be the centre points - but as I said - know your equipment to get the best results
 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 01:42:57 PM by briansquibb »

handsomerob

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #69 on: November 21, 2011, 02:48:29 PM »
Why are we even comparing 5DII's AF to discontinued models, rebels, etc? Or even to 7D/1DIV? It's pointless. They are all aimed at different markets. Everyone here agrees: 5DII's AF is it's weakest point and struggles when tracking fast moving objects. I'm not saying that it is completely useless. Many people post great action shots taken with a 5DII. I think we are all angry because such a legendary camera deserves a better AF system.

But you don't buy 5DII for it's AF, you buy it for it's excellent IQ and low light performance... Canon could have put a better AF in it, wish they did it!!! But they didn't. Not because they didn't have the tech for it, lol, but to differentiate it from other models. They don't want to put all the best features in one camera and then sell it for €2000/$2500. Who will then buy higher models that cost 3 times more?

Also, we regularly read in the forum, something like "1Dx is my dream camera, I want to have it but actually I just needed 5fps... blabla". Because of these kind of different needs there are that many cameras out there. Manufacturers try to keep most of us (and themselves ofc) satisfied. There will always be people whose needs seem to be 'forgotten' in a camera that is perfect for them otherwise. We just have to live with that.

If you want better, or even way better AF, you have the 7D. That is a camera you buy for it's superb AF and fast frame rate. But you'll have to sacrifice IQ & low light performance. It's only fair, given the prices. It's obviously aimed at a different market.

No compromises? You need everything? No worries, Canon didn't forget your needs. Treat yourself to a 1D/1Ds/1Dx and you will see all your worries disappear! Oh c'mon... Don't complain about the price now... ;)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 02:50:08 PM by handsomerob »

neuroanatomist

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2011, 03:34:04 PM »
I suggest you read the DxO reports - AF in poor light from the 5DII hands down beats the 7D and the 1D4 - exactly what I have found.

Can you provide a link to DxO's reports on autofocus performance?
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briansquibb

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2011, 06:10:10 PM »
OK I have two 7D's. Their AF is better than the 5DII - but not that much better contrary to the word on the street. There may be exceptions like peripheral points but most people use the 2.8 point in the centre

I also have a 1D4 whose AF makes the 7D's AF seem slow, inaccurate and not so good at locking on.

The 1D4 also has great high ISO performance as well

The proof is in the picture so I took this picture with the 1D4 for you tonight - try this on a 5DII or a 7D and show me a better picture

http://www.squibb.org.uk/pictures/b09g8589x.JPG

Camera Model: Canon EOS-1D Mark IV
Image Date: 2011-11-21 22:40:29
Lens: 70-200L F/2.8 II @70.0mm
Aperture: f/2.8
Exposure Time: 0.0080 s (1/125)
ISO equiv: 12800
Copyright: Brian Squibb
Software: Digital Photo Professional
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 06:14:01 PM by briansquibb »

AG

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2011, 06:54:08 PM »
http://www.squibb.org.uk/pictures/b09g8589x.JPG


Be handy to see the same photo taken at a series of ISOs such as 100, 1600, 12800 etc.

So we can see how dark the room was. That way people can see if their cameras can actually match up.

But i totally agree with your point though.
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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2011, 06:54:08 PM »

briansquibb

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2011, 07:00:35 PM »
http://www.squibb.org.uk/pictures/b09g8589x.JPG


Be handy to see the same photo taken at a series of ISOs such as 100, 1600, 12800 etc.

So we can see how dark the room was. That way people can see if their cameras can actually match up.

But i totally agree with your point though.

And keep the dog still  ;)

This was taken in M mode, fixed  at 1/125 and f/2.8 with auto iso. No mucking about in pp afterwards. So apart from sharpening it is as it came out of the camera

I can tell you now that at 100 and 1600 there was no picture :) This was taken in a dingy hall with light tubes about 20ft up. I was amazed I got a decent picture. Good testament to the 70-200 as well.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 07:04:09 PM by briansquibb »

briansquibb

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2011, 07:11:16 PM »
Here is another - different part of the hall so lighting slightly different

http://www.squibb.org.uk/pictures/b09g8538x.JPG

It will take some doing for the 5DIII to meet the high ISO that is already available. But it does show it is possible.

That will kill off those who think iso1600 with a 40D will be better :)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 07:17:30 PM by briansquibb »

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Re: 5DIII will come
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2011, 07:11:16 PM »